Talk:List of Berklee College of Music alumni

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Honorary Doctorate Recipients[edit]

Just glancing at this list, a few names (Steven Tyler, Robert Moog, for example) are actually honorary degree recipients and not actual alumni of the college. Although I understand that honorary degrees are obviously a measure of accomplishment, should they be included in this list? Considering that Berklee gives at least two honorary degrees per year, this list could become quite cluttered with names such as Bill Cosby, Paul Simon, Billy Joel, Herbie Hancock, and Phil Ramone, all of whom recieved honorary doctorates but did not actually attend Berklee. IMO, these names should be excluded from the list to avoid confusion between honorary recipients and alumni. — Neil 03:50, 11 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

  • Considering that there is also a request to add the graduates years of attendance, one could simply have the name of the individual with a note saying Honrary degree and the year that they received it? As for the years of attendance, may I propose something like: John Smith (1980-1983) Is there a standard listed somewhere on wiki? — Blahm 14:08, 10 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    • Berklee only publishes class-of year, so a date range would be difficult to verify. -- Malber (talk • contribs) 14:00, 24 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Honorary degree recipients should have a list of their own. -- Malber (talk · contribs) 17:36, 10 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Unlikely...[edit]

It seems unlikely that Richie Cole (born July 15, 1983) the football player attended Berkelee along with Richie Cole the alto sax jazz musician, who in fact currently lacks a Wikipedia entry. Also Richie Cole (born Feb 29, 1948) the jazz musician (whose real name is, of course, Richard Cole) should not be confused with Richard Cole (born January 2, 1946) the former Led Zeppelin tour manager. In any case, according to Scott Yanow (see http://www.answers.com/topic/richard-cole), Richie (the alto sax) Cole did not graduate from Berklee, so whether to call him an alumni or not is in question as well. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by DavidJoyner (talk • contribs) .

As far as the "not graduating" thing is concerned, if you read the header you'll see it has a method for indicating who is a graduate and who did not complete a program. - BalthCat 06:43, 24 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

As a Berklee attendee/non-graduate myself, I had to listen to my daughter repeating her jazz camp teacher's description of the "Berklee curse--people who graduate aren't successful in the music business." It doesn't help to have this page assert that only people with asterisks did not finish their program. More clarity re who actually did the work and graduated would be helpful in assessing this notion. Perhaps it makes more sense to star the true graduates. It wasn't a perfect place, years ago when I attended, but I got a lot out of the learning and playing experience. One reason people leave is that word gets around that someone's good, and, especially performance program students actually leave to...perform.Ruthgree (talk) 21:11, 26 June 2008 (UTC)RuthGreenwood[reply]

Li'l Idea[edit]

How about adding the band name of those in this list that have gained their fame from playing in a band? And maybe adding the genre with some people might be cool. for instance, I mostly look at this list to find new bands/jazz people with proper musical schooling. NJlo 20:59, 13 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

This list should be kept relatively simple. That would clutter this list up pretty fast, especially considering some of them might have more than one band that people consider to be their "break-through" band, etc. Subjectivity, blah blah. - 142.167.89.86 (talk) 03:11, 17 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Citation requirement[edit]

There is currently a movement to remove lists that do not provide citations to verifiable sources. To protect this list from possible deletion I've included a citation to the official list at the Berklee site and added a ref link to each listing. I've also removed any names that do not have a citation. If anyone feels like a name should be added back, please edit the list and include a citation to a third party non-trivial publication that states that the person is an alumnus. A link to the bio page or band bio page that says they went to Berklee would not be sufficient. Listings that do not include citations will be reverted. —Malber (talk • contribs) 17:41, 11 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The story that Myung, Portnoy, and Petrucci met while at Berklee is well-documented, for instance [1], [2], [3], etc. [4]. Choose whichever you like, but please stop deleting them. And what is wrong with the Booker Ervin cite, to a jazz history web site? Laszlo Panaflex 18:45, 14 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
The Ervin cite is actually to the liner notes for his album Cookin' that were written by producer Tom Wilson. Not a trivial source. In addition, some band bio pages are more reliable than others. A MySpace page of an obscure band is clearly distinguishable from the official page of an established, well-known artist. To ban all bio pages outright is obtuse and leads to "imperfect" citations. Where the claim is widely verifiable, a bio page may be the most sensible, informative page to cite. Laszlo Panaflex 23:39, 14 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Yet another asinine Wikipedia "movement"??? Needing to cite every one of these people is total and utter overkill. Tvccs 01:13, 15 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
The WP:Rulebrigade is choking the life out of Wiki. A "careful reading" of the voluminous and growing regs can be used to justify deleting anything and everything. I've stopped contributing because I'm tired of having to argue over every bloody keystroke. But this mass deletion without warning amounted to vandalism. Laszlo Panaflex 18:23, 15 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
So put them back with proper citations. If they're notable it shouldn't be too hard. —Malber (talk • contribs) 18:35, 15 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, I'm dropping everything to spend several hours tracking down references, that you will then delete as "trivial," requiring me to spend more time defending them. Not to mention the time needed for careful study of the mestastisizing rules. As I said, the obtuse and officious WP:Rulebrigade is choking the life out of Wiki. Laszlo Panaflex 18:55, 15 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
It's really very simple. If Berklee College of Music doesn't feel that a person is notable enough to be on their list of people they use to promote the school, why should they be on Wikipedia's list? —Malber (talk • contribs) 19:22, 15 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
So there is really only one source you consider to be valid. Perhaps the people at Berklee have better things to do than keeping up with and promoting all their alums (they probably also do not include non-grads, which this list does). Perhaps they don't remember some of them -- Booker Ervin was there sixty years ago. Perhaps they don't like the music some of them produced, or didn't particularly like some individuals so they keep them off their list. Perhaps they don't promote those who made their marks, for instance, in cartoons rather than music. This is a patently ridiculous argument. If only Berklee may define who is notable enough to be on Wiki, does that standard apply to other institutions as well? Laszlo Panaflex 21:30, 15 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Malber, there are any number of notable artists, some of who I know personally, who are not on Berklee's list, and that's by no means the only source. Your attitude is simplistic and short-sighted at best. When I get a chance and figure out the formatting, I'm going to restore/merge this, although quite frankly, that should be your project. Tvccs 17:17, 16 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

A careful reading of Wp:rs#Self-published_sources explains why bio and band bio pages aren't useful citations. And it is important to cite each of these listings otherwise this list could face deletion. —Malber (talk • contribs) 01:53, 15 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

While I appreciate your comments, just deleting the info before even asking for a citation request is going way too far, especially when you claim you're trying to preserve information - I don't buy into the deletionist approach here anymore than I do in fair use. If we follow your example here, no matter how well intentioned, 90% of the content on Wikipedia would be deleted overnight. And that serves whose interests? Tvccs 04:13, 15 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Wiki "rules" also state that official band sites and official MySpace sites are acceptable sources of information - you need to restore what was deleted until you are certain that the deleted material was incorrect. Tvccs 01:36, 17 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Not according to WP:LIST, WP:RS, and WP:V. Even WP:BAND suggests that self-published sources are a bad idea. Again, if the person is notable enough to be written about by a third party non-trivial publication, then it should be easy to find a reference and add the person back to the list. —Malber (talk • contribs) 20:34, 17 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Once again, that's simply poppycock. I know plenty of Berklee people who are very notable, have and deserve articles, and aren't on the Berklee list or any other source. Your one-track attitude is asinine. Tvccs 09:29, 19 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
An emergent notable entertainment personality who didn't have their bio published in a non-trivial publication? That would be unusual. Is a person notable if they can't get mention in Downbeat, Rolling Stone, Entertainment Weekly, etc. or even All Music Guide? —Malber (talk • contribs) 17:56, 24 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Red links[edit]

Some of the names on the Berklee list do not have articles. Should we keep these as redlinks to promote future article building or should we remove the wikilinks per WP:MOS? —Malber (talk • contribs) 16:57, 14 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I would say that if you are willing, google to try to establish notability, and Berklee attendance. If you are unable/unwilling to determine so, mark the entry to be verified, perhaps with {{cite}}. If you cannot establish notability, or Berklee attendance, and you are fairly confident you aren't missing something, axe it!! - BalthCat 08:36, 14 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Name[edit]

Shouldn't the name be "List of Berklee College of Music alumni" That sounds much better, and grammatically correct. --Dan LeveilleTALK 10:30, 4 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Not in source cited[edit]

While it's swell to cite a source, if the name isn't in the source, the citation isn't worth a damn. I've just gone through the A's and B's. I took out about a half dozen names. I'm sure there are plenty more. - SummerPhDv2.0 23:23, 11 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I'm done up to the H's by now. 21 names removed. Clearly, someone has been blindly citing the source for a while. As always, feel free to restore any of these with a cite to a reliable source that actually supports the material. - SummerPhDv2.0 16:14, 17 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Done through the P's. 38 names removed. Added Branford Marsalis, a major oversight. - SummerPhDv2.0 04:34, 18 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Done (checking the main source). A total of 50 removed. Feel free to restore any/all of them with a source that actually says they went to Berklee. - SummerPhDv2.0 02:54, 1 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for doing this -- Rivers Cuomo is often cited as belonging on the list but the best sources seem to indicate a five-week pre-college summer program, thanks for keeping it up to date. -- Michael Scott Cuthbert (talk) 16:23, 5 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Selection criteria[edit]

As there hasn't been any meaningful discussion on this, I am using notability as the criterion for inclusion. Spelling it out: To be included in this list, an entry must have a reliable source which states they attended Berklee College of Music and be the subject of an article. Official members (i.e., not touring or session) of a notable band are included (e.g. David Davidson of Revocation (band). - SummerPhDv2.0 16:23, 17 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Clarification: This is intended to be a list of notable alumni of Berklee. We certainly cannot/would not/should to list all alumni or a random selection of alumni.
Notable alumni of Berklee must be notable and alumni. Yes, various people who do not have articles are verifiably alumni. They are not notable, however, unless that noatability is demonstrated by passing WP:N by having an article. They must be notable alumni. (Similarly, we would not include Julius Cesar who is certainly notable, but not an alumnus. He is not a notable alumnus.) - SummerPhDv2.0 16:20, 17 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Members of notable bands who would not satisfy notability to have their own biography article also do not belong in lists of notable alumni. Similarly not all athletes who play for notable teams are themselves notable. Notability is not inherited. Gab4gab (talk) 19:58, 20 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

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