Talk:List of Canadian Victoria Cross recipients

Page contents not supported in other languages.
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Featured listList of Canadian Victoria Cross recipients is a featured list, which means it has been identified as one of the best lists produced by the Wikipedia community. If you can update or improve it, please do so.
Main Page trophyThis article appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page as Today's featured list on March 11, 2013.
Article milestones
DateProcessResult
November 26, 2007Featured list candidatePromoted

Canadians won more VC's per capita[edit]

The last line states that "According to historian Arthur Bishop, between the inception of the Victoria Cross in 1856 until the end of the Second World War in 1945 Canadians won more VC's per capita than any other nationality in the British Empire." The claim of 94 Canadian recipients (only 78 of whom were members of the Canadian forces and one from Newfoundland) is nearly equal to the 92 Australian recipients until 1945 (of whom 87 were members of the Australian forces). Since Canada’s population has always been well in excess of 5% higher than the Australian population that negates the contention. I am not suggesting the Australian won more VCs per capita just that it was awarded more per capita than Canada.

The 94 figure is approprate in Canada but this is an international project. If I am writing in Australia I say 96 Australians were awarded the VC including five Australians serving with South African and British forces. If I am writing for an international audience I say 91 members of the Australian forces were awarded the VC but that Australia also counts as Australian five others who served with South African and British forces. Anthony Staunton (talk) 11:17, 3 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Anthony, qualifying the statement detailed above:

Bishop's criteria for inclusion as 'Canadian VC Recipients' are: " 

1. Was the individual a member of the Canadian forces at the time of the deed meriting the VC"
2. Was the person born in Canada?
3. Did the person reside in Canada at the outbreak of war?
4. If not born in Canada, did the person establish a permanent residence in Canada?"

by these standards he counts 95 'Canadian' VC winners between 1854 & 1945

Whiskymack (talk) 22:55, 12 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Anthony was referring to the statement "Canadians won more VC's per capita than any other nationality in the British Empire" as being inaccurate. I agree with him. I doubt Bishop's criteria would have made much difference if we were wholly referring to per capita of population? The figures below are not precise, but help reinforce his comment. New Zealand Population 1900: 800,000 New Zealand Population 1918: 1,150,000 New Zealand Population 1945: 1,727,800 NZ VC’S: 25 Australian Population 1900: 3,849,368 Australian Population 1918: 5,029,403 Australian Population 1945: 7,391,692 AUS VC’S: 92 Canadian Population 1900: 5,310,000 Canadian Population 1918: 8,148,000 Canadian Population 1945: 12,072,000 CAN VC’S: 96 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bcpalin (talk • contribs) 06:50, 28 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I've removed that line.

See population data from Wolfram Alpha: http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=population+of+australia+vs+canada — Preceding unsigned comment added by 130.194.167.183 (talk) 02:50, 10 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Best not to guess - get refs - I think it should be back ,,easily references - per capita does not mean the most awarded!
    • Doug Lennox (30 August 2009). Now You Know Canada's Heroes. Dundurn Press Ltd. p. 19. ISBN 978-1-55488-444-5.
I think that book is just wrong. I know there is no original research rule that we might be pushing here but if we just go by 1945 populations
Canada 95 VCs for 12.07 million = 7.85 VCs per million.
Australia 87 VCs for 7.3 million = 11.77 VCs per million
That 87 is for Australians in Australian armed forces (91 minus 4 for those received in Vietnam). The 95 for Canada is his figure in the book. This article states 94 I believe http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Ricketts isn't included in this article. A similar calculation using other population figures would probably bring out a similar result (judging by that wolfram alpha graph).
I can't see how the author came to the conclusion, it isn't supported in by the numbers and it shouldn't be included in this article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Shniken (talk • contribs) 03:14, 16 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Province of Origin[edit]

So I started a province of origin bracket because I thought it was necessary and informative to break up the V.C. winner's by province. However this list is somewhat difficult to breakup in this way as many of the winners were British citizens who moved to Canada or immigrants from yet another country. In addition many of the winners moved from province to province and didn't have one fixed province. So I came up with some quick arbitrary standards which are open to discussion. The reason I chose to list only one instead of multiple provinces was primarily for the purpose of sorting. Anyways here were the guidelines that I followed.

1. The first and easiest was were the born in Canada? If so list the province of birth, however the exception here was that if they moved to another province at an early age I listed the longest province of residence prior to enlistment.

2. Did they move here from another country? Similar to above I tried to pick the province with the longest listed residence prior to enlistment

3. Were they a citizen who moved here from another country solely to join and fight in the wars, but moved back to their home countries after the war? I listed them as n/a

Anything that shows blank was somewhere that there simply wasn't enough information I kind find to make a definitive statement on their "home" province.

Hope this helps, these still need to get referenced which I will try to work on but will last as a longer project. One of the other options I had other then to list all of the original provinces here was to make separate lists that listed all Canadian, V.C. winners by province of any residence whatsoever. I though that could be even more arbitrary so I have gone with this for now.

~Cheers Krazytea(talk) 04:42, 12 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Following your own argument above, it is very hard to distinguish what defines the "province of origin." There is something of an arbitrary standard in defining these in this list and there are still unexplained gaps. Take Roland Bourke for example, he was born in London emigrated to British Columbia, was rejected by Canadian forces so moved back to England to join the reserves. How do you describe his province of origin, at the time of his VC, as British Columbia? On a personal level, I don't see the particular usefulness of this in the list given its arbitrary nature.
Ignoring my doubts about whether they should be included or not, on a different note, this list is a featured list which means it meets certain standards surrounding the content and the format of that content and it needs to maintain these.
  • All of the references need to be properly formatted including all of the pertinent information, such as publisher, date, retrieval date, title, link.
  • They also need to be "high-quality" sources so self-published and non-reliable sources are out eg. gocruickshanks.com. The best option to sort this out would be to link the VAC or the national defence site for each individual :*The refs should go in the notes column, not in the Province column.
This should have really been organised and developed beforehand in a sandbox and refined there before bringing into the mainspace. I appreciate the effort, I really do, and I truly understand how much effort goes into gathering and introducing this data but there are a few shortcomings that need to be dealt with and should have been dealt with before "going live." Regards,Woody (talk) 11:24, 9 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

96 awards on list but official record counts 99[edit]

According to veterans Canada: http://www.veterans.gc.ca/eng/remembrance/medals-decorations/orders-decorations/canadian-victoria-cross-recipients There were 99 awards of the Victoria Cross prior to its replacement with the Canadian Victoria Cross and none after. Therefore why are only 96 listed on this page?

As an example prior to 1900 there is only four listed here but five in the official tecord, thus excluding ( DE MONTMORENCY, Raymond Harvey Lodge Joseph ) which adds the 5th, I leave it as an excecise of the observant to spot the other missing two. Ramriot (talk) 15:12, 7 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

De Montmorency is listed in the Wikipedia article as of April 3, 2016.

Perhaps Timothy O'Hea who won the VC in Canada although he was not Canadian

And there is Thomas Ricketts, Newfoundlander, who was consciously and unnecessarily left off the list. I say un-necessarily because Douglas is included, and he won the VC prior to Confederation, as are the receipients for Crimean War activity although there was not the Dominion of Canada at that time - their VCs were won prior to Confederation, same as the Newfoundlander's. History books of Canada seldom start on July 1, 1867, usually they encompass earlier history of the place that would be Canada, thus Newfoundland pre-1949 is part of Canadian history and he of them who won the VC (Ricketts) should be recognized as a Canadian recipient of the VC. 28.230|96.52.128.230]] (talk) 18:06, 11 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Also Harry Churchill Beet who won VC in Second Boer War fighting in British army and only after war did he move to Canada and enrolled in the CEF in WWI and later dying in Vancouver. (Harry Churchill Beet Wikipededia page) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.3.203.119 (talk) 22:27, 26 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

John Pearson VC (Indian Mutiny), later emigrating to Canada and serving in Canadian army — Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.3.203.119 (talk) 22:35, 26 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Henry Howey Robson VC (WWI) later emigrating to Canada — Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.3.203.119 (talk) 22:52, 26 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Ronald Stuart VC (WWI) son of two Canadians, officered CP ships

Robert Edward Ryder (1895-1978), VC (WWI), emigrated to Canada for short time after war, left after tree fell on him — Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.3.203.119 (talk) 23:17, 26 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

How many Canadian forces VCs?[edit]

This is a list of Canadian recipients. Is there any dispute with figures that the number of awards to Canadian forces is 79, four Boer War, 62 First World War and 13 Second World War? This number includes Bishop Canadian Cavalry attached RFC but does not include Ricketts. Anthony Staunton (talk) 02:14, 16 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

The 1953 British War Office list confirms that the number of awards to Canadian forces is 79, four Boer War, 62 First World War and 13 Second World War. Anthony Staunton (talk) 11:24, 18 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Problems and suggested solutions for this article[edit]

Much of the source material for this list is from either National Defence and Canadian Forces or Veteran Affairs Canada but the article does not cite a reference for how the list of 96 names were compiled. Veteran Affairs Canada at http://www.veterans.gc.ca/eng/remembrance/medals-decorations/orders-decorations/canadian-victoria-cross-recipients lists 99 Canadian recipients and cites Valiant Men, Canadian War Museum Historical Publications, A.M. Hakkert Ltd. This 1973 book listed 93 recipients including the only award to Newfoundland. Wikipedia, Veteran Affairs Canada and Valiant Men all list 79 members of the Canadian forces awarded the VC. Veteran Affairs Canada and Valiant Men but not Wikipedia lists the Newfoundland award while the three works list 17, 19 and 13 Canadians awarded the VC with the British and/or Indian Armies. The notes could indicate for Canadians who received their awards with other forces their connection with Canada. It is not obvious from the Wikipedia list that Bishop and Gray were awarded the VC as members of the Canadian forces. The VC citation for Bishop states he was Canadian Cavalry attached to the Royal Flying Corps and the citation for Gray was Royal Canadian Navy Volunteer Reserve attached to the Fleet Air Arm. The beginning of the second paragraph states that ‘The Canadian medal differs only in that the inscription is in Latin rather than English’ which should be amended perhaps to say ‘The overall design of the Canadian medal is similar to the British medal with the exception that the inscription on the scroll is in Latin and the fleur-de-lis has been added at each end of the scroll. The major difference between the medals is the metal for the Canadian VC is a purely Canadian composition’. The rest of the second paragraph, if thought necessary, can be a footnote to explain that Latin was chosen since both English and French are official languages in Canada. Anthony Staunton (talk) 11:34, 18 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Just need to say..."The Victoria Cross for Valour has been awarded to 94 Canadians plus an additional 6 who are considered to be Canadians at the time of their award". -- Moxy (talk) 17:53, 18 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks Moxy. What about the 'British Victoria Cross last gazetted to a Canadian in 1946 has been awarded to 79 members of the Canadian forces, one to the Newfoundland Regiment and 19 to other Canadians serving in either British or Indian forces. The Canadian Victoria Cross, promulgated in 1993, has never been awarded. Reference for the 79 members of the Canadian forces and the one Newfoundland Regiment recipient is the British War Office List 1953 and for the other 19 Canadians serving in either British or Indian forces is Veteran Affairs Canada website at http://www.veterans.gc.ca/eng/remembrance/medals-decorations/orders-decorations/canadian-victoria-cross-recipient Anthony Staunton (talk) 00:17, 20 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

To clarify, this establishes a total of 99 while the Wikipedia article lists 96.

First paragraph be amended to: The Victoria Cross is the highest British honour last awarded to a Commonwealth nation in 1969. It was awarded to 79 members of the Canadian forces and one Newfoundlander between 1900 and 1946. In addition, 19 others serving in British and Indian forces are considered by Canada to be Canadian recipients. The Canadian Victoria Cross, named in honour of the British Victoria Cross, is the highest honour in the Canadian honours system but has never been awarded. The second paragraph in Background be amended to: In 1993, the Canadian Victoria Cross was created as the highest award of the Canadian honours system but has yet to be issued. The design is similar to the British, New Zealand and Australian similar named medals but with two major differences on the scroll. Latin rather than English, using a language that is an ancestor of both English and French, avoids linguistic discrimination between Canada's two official languages. At each end of the scroll, the fleur-de-lis has been added. However, the composition of the metal is completely different to the composition of the three other similarly names awards. Anthony Staunton (talk) 22:28, 3 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

External links modified[edit]

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified 4 external links on List of Canadian Victoria Cross recipients. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

This message was posted before February 2018. After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{source check}} (last update: 18 January 2022).

  • If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
  • If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.

Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 06:41, 7 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

External links modified[edit]

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified 2 external links on List of Canadian Victoria Cross recipients. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

This message was posted before February 2018. After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{source check}} (last update: 18 January 2022).

  • If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
  • If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.

Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 10:28, 12 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Personnel Service Files for VC Recipients[edit]

Hello, I have a spreadsheet of FWW VC recipients with a link to their digitized service files. As an amazing primary source for research on these fellows, I think they should be linked in the External Link area of their pages. Is there a way of doing this quickly or should I just edit piecemeal? Also, when linking, is it better to link to the page that links into the database such as this one Billy Bishop or the exact service file or this service file? The VC recipients have frequently had their service files digitized a few times already, hence the multiple files as in the example above. Your thoughts are appreciated.

Thanks!

Ouvrard (talk) 17:10, 16 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

You are commended for your research but I do not know how to add it to Wikipedia other than piecemeal. Perhaps someone else will have the answer. You are welcome to publish it on the Victoria Cross Forum at http://victoriacross.proboards.com/thread/3961/personnel-service-files-vc-recipients and then quote it. Anthony Staunton (talk) 10:00, 17 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Hello Anthony Staunton Thank you for your response. Any thoughts about which link is the best? My sense is that the link that offers a choice of service files, would be the best one.

Ouvrard (talk) 14:04, 17 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Suggest the Library and Archives Canada link since it includes the other two links. Anthony Staunton (talk) 14:44, 17 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

External links modified[edit]

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified one external link on List of Canadian Victoria Cross recipients. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

This message was posted before February 2018. After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{source check}} (last update: 18 January 2022).

  • If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
  • If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.

Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 14:57, 1 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Retrieved from "https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:List_of_Canadian_Victoria_Cross_recipients&oldid=1206529012"