Talk:List of Christian metal artists/Archive 3
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Restructuring of the list
I certainly don't mind you adding citations, Synthwave.94. The only reason I reverted before was because of the then-consensus. But restructuring the article is something else entirely. The present version (that I restore) was something that arose after much discussion, and much experimentation on a user sandbox page. Please, please reach a consensus for how to restructure the article before you make such a change.--3family6 (Talk to me | See what I have done) 01:23, 5 June 2015 (UTC)
- It was in order to stick to reliable book references about the specific genres by Christian metal bands. Synthwave.94 (talk) 11:48, 5 June 2015 (UTC)
- The list is full of original research and poorly sourced content and this is the reason why I added better and correctly sourced subsections. Synthwave.94 (talk) 11:51, 5 June 2015 (UTC)
- I just restored a better version with correctly sourced entries, respecting the different subsections previously present in this list (and I also restored the few ones I previously added, as the genres are correctly backed by reliable sources). Synthwave.94 (talk) 12:10, 5 June 2015 (UTC)
- Thanks, the list looks better now. One reason we don't want too many subsections is that a lot of bands overlap within a particular style (for instance, many extreme metal bands incorporate death, thrash, and black metal, so it's better to use the broader term). I'm restoring the under-construction tag and will add bands, with sources, myself.--3family6 (Talk to me | See what I have done) 14:39, 5 June 2015 (UTC)
- Ah, see now you're putting it small tags specifying the genres of the band. That is exactly what the previous list was trying to avoid. If you go back through the talk page, you will see the years of discussion regarding this. That's why I reverted your restructuring before, because the page as it existed (barring the lack of citations, which is something different) was the result of long discussions and experimentation going back at least five years (some of my first edits were re-working this list).--3family6 (Talk to me | See what I have done) 14:45, 5 June 2015 (UTC)
- It's in order to stick to sources I've added in this list. But I personnaly think the best thing to do is to create a table (like this one, for example) in order to include the genres each band is typically associated with. Synthwave.94 (talk) 14:56, 5 June 2015 (UTC)
- Where were you five years ago!? I don't particularly care for how that table is set up on that article, but something like that is probably the best format. During the featured list review for the list of thrash metal bands, other editors wanted the list to be set up in a table, so that could be our model. Perhaps you or I can experiment our sandbox and then request feedback from other editors?--3family6 (Talk to me | See what I have done) 15:31, 5 June 2015 (UTC)
- Lol, I wasn't editing Wikipedia five years ago, but anyway. A table would be definitly better for the readibility of the list. Synthwave.94 (talk) 16:08, 5 June 2015 (UTC)
- I'll work on a table once the list is finalized and sourced. This should resolve the multiple entry issue, the issue of pop rock artists such as Plumb on the list or bands that play/played a very eclectic style Argyle Park, Kekal, etc., and will better allow for images (see the list of thrash metal artists). I'm thinking that the parameters should be "Artist, Formed, Origin, Style(s), Note" and then a final parameter for images.--3family6 (Talk to me | See what I have done) 16:02, 6 June 2015 (UTC)
- I've already started doing it, with only the "band" and "genre" parameter. However please stop adding unsourced entries. Synthwave.94 (talk) 19:33, 6 June 2015 (UTC)
- Ok, I just created a tables with two columns, with properly sourced content. You can add more columns if you want. Synthwave.94 (talk) 15:41, 7 June 2015 (UTC)
- The entries are sourced! I realize that we have different editing methods, but please stop reverting all my work just because you don't like it! Perhaps its my fault for pitching in and taking things into my own hands. I'll work in one of my sandboxes to avoid future conflict. But here's my major peeve: You once again mention "poorly sourced" content - what do you mean by that? I do understand that some bands do not have citations for their Christianity yet, but instead of just removing the artist, why not just add a citation,? I was planning to bring in those citations anyway.--3family6 (Talk to me | See what I have done) 17:37, 7 June 2015 (UTC)
- Some of them were incorrectly sourced : several references only described influences, elements or blend of several styles. Other sources described albums instead of bands. And some of your additions didn't explicitly mention Christianity themes and this is the reason why I remove them. However don't worry, I kept a good part of your work. Synthwave.94 (talk) 17:46, 7 June 2015 (UTC)
- Also please refrain to add solo artists to the list. I don't disagree about Brian Welch being a Christian metal artist, but he is not a band. However you can add your reference to his corresponding article (if it's not already done). Synthwave.94 (talk) 17:49, 7 June 2015 (UTC)
- I moved the entire article, so that's taken care of.--3family6 (Talk to me | See what I have done) 18:03, 7 June 2015 (UTC)
- Regarding your unsourced additions, most of them are Christian rock or punk bands, or their article don't even mention Christian beliefs or lyrical themes. So I removed them all from the list. Synthwave.94 (talk) 17:59, 7 June 2015 (UTC)
- See my comment in the above section "citation needed" for my comment about citations and listing of punk and rock bands. As for blends of styles, those are perfectly acceptable for listing - most genres are a blend of different styles. In metal this is readily apparent, as almost all subgenres are a blend of different styles (metalcore, deathcore, progressive death metal, symphonic black metal, etc.) Lastly, I will admit that I've gotten annoyed how you just jumped in here and started removing artists after myself and other editors have worked hard to cultivate the list, instead of allowing time for the issues you brought up to be addressed. I got even more annoyed after you undid a lot of the work that I did yesterday. However, this is simply my problem. I cannot fault you for being a bold, zealous editor, as I often have done the same. And my work was useful yesterday, as I can access the revision and work from there. I will caution you in the future though to please not just assume that a list if poorly maintained and that there may be reasoning and consensus behind it. I agree that it did need cleaning, and I don't know how or why some of the entries got there. But, it tends to cause much less friction with other editors if you tackle particular issues or particular listings, instead of just gutting everything and taking over yourself. I also was trying to make things easier for both you and other editors - since I already listed the bands/artists in the appropriate section(s), I thought it would be easier to just add citations that way.--3family6 (Talk to me | See what I have done) 18:03, 7 June 2015 (UTC)
- I didn't intend improving this list but the fact you removed the template I first put at the top of the article pushed me to do so. It's not always "obvious" an artist belong to a specific list and this is the reason why references are required. You should be aware that this is not the first list I improve : I entirely cleaned up 10 lists so far, and of course I perfectly know how to do it. I think you should trust me a little bit more. I don't want to destroy your work (it's not my purpose at all) but I want to keep perfectly referenced entries, with sources which explicitly one artist/band with a specific genre. An album is not a band for example, so a genre which only applies to an album is not enough to support a genre for a specific band/artist. I know I tend to be very critical regarding the sources I use and the sources you and other editors use, but it's for a good reason. Also it's really a burden to find sources for each unsourced entry in a list, really. You and other editors should understand verifiability should be respected in lists and not simply in other articles linked to the list. Synthwave.94 (talk) 18:29, 7 June 2015 (UTC)
- See my comment in the above section "citation needed" for my comment about citations and listing of punk and rock bands. As for blends of styles, those are perfectly acceptable for listing - most genres are a blend of different styles. In metal this is readily apparent, as almost all subgenres are a blend of different styles (metalcore, deathcore, progressive death metal, symphonic black metal, etc.) Lastly, I will admit that I've gotten annoyed how you just jumped in here and started removing artists after myself and other editors have worked hard to cultivate the list, instead of allowing time for the issues you brought up to be addressed. I got even more annoyed after you undid a lot of the work that I did yesterday. However, this is simply my problem. I cannot fault you for being a bold, zealous editor, as I often have done the same. And my work was useful yesterday, as I can access the revision and work from there. I will caution you in the future though to please not just assume that a list if poorly maintained and that there may be reasoning and consensus behind it. I agree that it did need cleaning, and I don't know how or why some of the entries got there. But, it tends to cause much less friction with other editors if you tackle particular issues or particular listings, instead of just gutting everything and taking over yourself. I also was trying to make things easier for both you and other editors - since I already listed the bands/artists in the appropriate section(s), I thought it would be easier to just add citations that way.--3family6 (Talk to me | See what I have done) 18:03, 7 June 2015 (UTC)
- I'll work on a table once the list is finalized and sourced. This should resolve the multiple entry issue, the issue of pop rock artists such as Plumb on the list or bands that play/played a very eclectic style Argyle Park, Kekal, etc., and will better allow for images (see the list of thrash metal artists). I'm thinking that the parameters should be "Artist, Formed, Origin, Style(s), Note" and then a final parameter for images.--3family6 (Talk to me | See what I have done) 16:02, 6 June 2015 (UTC)
- Lol, I wasn't editing Wikipedia five years ago, but anyway. A table would be definitly better for the readibility of the list. Synthwave.94 (talk) 16:08, 5 June 2015 (UTC)
- Where were you five years ago!? I don't particularly care for how that table is set up on that article, but something like that is probably the best format. During the featured list review for the list of thrash metal bands, other editors wanted the list to be set up in a table, so that could be our model. Perhaps you or I can experiment our sandbox and then request feedback from other editors?--3family6 (Talk to me | See what I have done) 15:31, 5 June 2015 (UTC)
- It's in order to stick to sources I've added in this list. But I personnaly think the best thing to do is to create a table (like this one, for example) in order to include the genres each band is typically associated with. Synthwave.94 (talk) 14:56, 5 June 2015 (UTC)
- I do know that you have cleaned up a bunch of lists. I've actually helped you do this in the past. But these are the points of contention:
- First, most (not all, I grant) of the entries WERE sourced. They just weren't cited. That is a small but important distinction - that's why I pointed you to the previous revision. "You and other editors should understand verifiability should be respected in lists and not simply in other articles linked to the list": We DO, that's my point. There list DID have citations for every entry, there was just a consensus that not every entry needed a citation. Despite what you may think, that is a valid argument. However, it's also okay to have a citation for every entry, especially on band lists as they can be contentious, so I don't have a problem with that.
- Second: "An album is not a band for example, so a genre which only applies to an album is not enough to support a genre for a specific band/artist." Says what guideline? As far as I can tell, this is just your opinion, which is fine, but if other editors disagree, which in this case they do, you need to seek a consensus. I've never seen it argued that citing a particular album should not be done to establish an artist as performing that genre. I HAVE seen it argued that an artist might perform a certain style only on that album and thus shouldn't be listed, which is a much more valid argument. In the case of this list, this very issue has been discussed vigorously, and a consensus emerged that if a band/artist performed a style only on that album, to note that particular album (most notably, Petra on Jekyll & Hyde). This is by no means an entirely settled, issue, though. But this is what I meant by "please not just assume that a list if poorly maintained and that there may be reasoning and consensus behind it," and what I meant by how your actions might annoy other editors. I know you are perfectly capable of finding reliable sources and providing adequate citations. But you may not be aware that a particular list, whether flawed or not, might have already had editors who've done that same as you, and over time and conflict arrived at a particular solution that might not agree with your personal editing philosophy. Also, in the case of the MusicMight sources, I had cited them prior to that discussion you mentioned on the Gothic metal list article (which ended up finding entries by Taniwha reliable, as I thought the discussion would when I jumped in, having seen that source discussed before), and in most cases did so out of convenience of staying on one site rather than jumping back and forth, and, given TIME, gone through and provided alternate citations. The reason I go through all of this is because five years ago, when I was a brand-new editor, I jumped on to this article and started making various edits that annoyed other editors (in this case Walter Görlitz and Blackmetalbaz), but, through the help of them and others, I've matured as an editor. Now given all that, some of the citations used to support the article went way back when I had a different editing philosophy and was scouring the net for any mention of "metal" attached to a given artist, even if the mention was rather scant (such as on a single song, or merely an influence). Also, the revision that User:Invisiboy42293 brought over from their sandbox had a few entries that I'm not sure why they were included, and got missed by myself and Walter, who were at that time the editors who frequented this list. So, I certainly appreciate that you're working to improve this list. I just don't appreciate the thought that myself and other editors who helped populate the list are/were ignorant of verifiability concerns. There were reasons for why the list, imperfect as it was, was the way it was.--3family6 (Talk to me | See what I have done) 19:18, 7 June 2015 (UTC)
- Regarding your first point, it is not a good idea not to add entries without providing a citation because several entries clearly didn't belong to the list. And it was the problem I wanted to fix.
- Regarding you second point it's just not my opinion : an album is an album while a band is a band. If an album is associated with a specific genre then it doesn't mean the artist of the album is specifically associated with the genre. I'm now aware you've been working over this list for a long time but you should understand this list was clearly not perfect and I understand that sources may not be here and you sometimes need to find "poor" sources, but I really don't think I annoy other editors providing more explicit and using a more critical approach to the references used in the list. My new additions and my changes are only here to improve the list and don't intend to destroy your hard work. About MusicMight I'd already read your answer (and I admit I didn't know Taniwha was Garry Sharpe-Young) but it still doesn't change the fact that this website should be used with extra care. Synthwave.94 (talk) 20:40, 7 June 2015 (UTC)
- Regarding albums, my point was that it's not an incorrect usage of citations to use, for example, a review of Master of Puppets to support Metallica as a thrash metal band, because no-one will dispute that Metallica is/was a thrash metal band, even though they recorded some non-thrash albums. An example from this list would be how you switched the Brian Welch reference from an album review to the biography listing on AllMusic - you're free to spend time doing that, but it really is a trivial matter because I seriously doubt that anyone will contend that Welch isn't nu-metal. Also, because there is the now the template listing styles, we can give more leeway and cite the different styles found on different albums. But if you want to challenge that albums cannot be used to support artist listings in genre lists, I suggest that you take it up on the WikiProject Music talk page, not here, and establish a consensus.--3family6 (Talk to me | See what I have done) 03:51, 8 June 2015 (UTC)
- You can also find sources which explicitly associate a specific band or artist (Metallica, or Welch in this case) with a specific genre, even in album reviews. And there are reliable sources which described Metallica as a thrash metal band while there are sources which explicitly described Welch as a nu metal artist, such as the AllMusic review I added to support his inclusion in the list. Again you should understand an album isn't an artist or a band. Synthwave.94 (talk) 12:45, 8 June 2015 (UTC)
- You can do whatever you want. But if you start removing mine or other editors over this issue, then we have a problem, because I have not seen any consensus supporting your position, and have actually seen the opposite (that albums can be used to support).--3family6 (Talk to me | See what I have done) 15:03, 8 June 2015 (UTC)
- In this case, the best thing to do would be to associate the album(s) explicitly associated with a genre next to the genre you want to support, to avoid any confusion. However don't forget the source should also mentions Christian related themes, in order to support the inclusion of an artist in the list. Synthwave.94 (talk) 15:26, 8 June 2015 (UTC)
- For this list, using the album ref to support a particular genre is exactly what I had in mind, so it really shouldn't be an issue here. I was thinking about as a general principle, I don't see a warrant to automatically exclude a citation just because it's a source talking about a particular album. Now, like I said above, if it's only on that album that the style is supported, and otherwise the style is not representative of the artist's overall work (for example, nu metal on Slayer's Diabolus in Musica), then I agree that at a minimum there should be some kind of note explaining this. With Christian themes, it doesn't have to be the same source: One source could support the band as Christian, and another for the particular genre. This isn't original research - one supports the more general genre of Christian metal, and the other supports the particular genre. On this list, the Christian-supporting citation could go on the actual band entry parameter, and the style-supporting citation on the style parameter.--3family6 (Talk to me | See what I have done) 18:58, 8 June 2015 (UTC)
- And specialized websites such as Jesus Freak Hideout and Cross Rhythms usually mention Christian lyrics (or Jesus/God/the Bible, etc.) in an album review, so it's quite easy to find a reference which supports both a metal genre and Christian themes. Synthwave.94 (talk) 17:29, 10 June 2015 (UTC)
- Oh, I forget to ask you something, 3family6, regarding one Christian metal subgenre. Do you think artists described as unblack metal should be included in this list, even if there's a section in the corresponding article which list them ? Synthwave.94 (talk) 17:29, 10 June 2015 (UTC)
- Synthwave.94: Hmmm. I think so, yes. That list is small enough I think it's okay to have overlap.--3family6 (Talk to me | See what I have done) 20:21, 10 June 2015 (UTC)
- Ok, in this case I would add some of them soon. Synthwave.94 (talk) 21:08, 10 June 2015 (UTC)
- I don't think we need to specify "un"black metal for this page, as "un"black metal is Christian black metal. Since this page is a list of Christian artists, the Christian aspect goes without saying.--3family6 (Talk to me | See what I have done) 23:39, 10 June 2015 (UTC)
- True. I just corrected it. Synthwave.94 (talk) 00:09, 11 June 2015 (UTC)
- I don't think we need to specify "un"black metal for this page, as "un"black metal is Christian black metal. Since this page is a list of Christian artists, the Christian aspect goes without saying.--3family6 (Talk to me | See what I have done) 23:39, 10 June 2015 (UTC)
- Ok, in this case I would add some of them soon. Synthwave.94 (talk) 21:08, 10 June 2015 (UTC)
- Synthwave.94: Hmmm. I think so, yes. That list is small enough I think it's okay to have overlap.--3family6 (Talk to me | See what I have done) 20:21, 10 June 2015 (UTC)
- For this list, using the album ref to support a particular genre is exactly what I had in mind, so it really shouldn't be an issue here. I was thinking about as a general principle, I don't see a warrant to automatically exclude a citation just because it's a source talking about a particular album. Now, like I said above, if it's only on that album that the style is supported, and otherwise the style is not representative of the artist's overall work (for example, nu metal on Slayer's Diabolus in Musica), then I agree that at a minimum there should be some kind of note explaining this. With Christian themes, it doesn't have to be the same source: One source could support the band as Christian, and another for the particular genre. This isn't original research - one supports the more general genre of Christian metal, and the other supports the particular genre. On this list, the Christian-supporting citation could go on the actual band entry parameter, and the style-supporting citation on the style parameter.--3family6 (Talk to me | See what I have done) 18:58, 8 June 2015 (UTC)
- In this case, the best thing to do would be to associate the album(s) explicitly associated with a genre next to the genre you want to support, to avoid any confusion. However don't forget the source should also mentions Christian related themes, in order to support the inclusion of an artist in the list. Synthwave.94 (talk) 15:26, 8 June 2015 (UTC)
- You can do whatever you want. But if you start removing mine or other editors over this issue, then we have a problem, because I have not seen any consensus supporting your position, and have actually seen the opposite (that albums can be used to support).--3family6 (Talk to me | See what I have done) 15:03, 8 June 2015 (UTC)
- You can also find sources which explicitly associate a specific band or artist (Metallica, or Welch in this case) with a specific genre, even in album reviews. And there are reliable sources which described Metallica as a thrash metal band while there are sources which explicitly described Welch as a nu metal artist, such as the AllMusic review I added to support his inclusion in the list. Again you should understand an album isn't an artist or a band. Synthwave.94 (talk) 12:45, 8 June 2015 (UTC)
- Regarding albums, my point was that it's not an incorrect usage of citations to use, for example, a review of Master of Puppets to support Metallica as a thrash metal band, because no-one will dispute that Metallica is/was a thrash metal band, even though they recorded some non-thrash albums. An example from this list would be how you switched the Brian Welch reference from an album review to the biography listing on AllMusic - you're free to spend time doing that, but it really is a trivial matter because I seriously doubt that anyone will contend that Welch isn't nu-metal. Also, because there is the now the template listing styles, we can give more leeway and cite the different styles found on different albums. But if you want to challenge that albums cannot be used to support artist listings in genre lists, I suggest that you take it up on the WikiProject Music talk page, not here, and establish a consensus.--3family6 (Talk to me | See what I have done) 03:51, 8 June 2015 (UTC)
- It should be the United States because the others are not abbreviated.The Cross Bearer (talk) 01:04, 12 June 2015 (UTC)
Sandbox version
Synthwave.94, Walter Görlitz, Metalworker14, The Cross Bearer: What do you think of the list format as I have it in my sandbox? I'm thinking that we can ditch the "Notes" parameter. The final, blank-title parameter would be for images.--3family6 (Talk to me | See what I have done) 20:21, 10 June 2015 (UTC)
- I don't think the "Notes" parameter is really useful. Regarding images I think we should add them at the right of the list, like this or like this. Synthwave.94 (talk) 21:08, 10 June 2015 (UTC)
- I think that will work for images. Because they are put into sections, the page should render correctly on a mobile device.--3family6 (Talk to me | See what I have done) 21:31, 10 June 2015 (UTC)
- Also I think you should keep metal subgenres only. No need to add dance or other rock subgenres. For example, you should remove indietronica, dance-rock, emo and pop punk for And Then There Were None. Synthwave.94 (talk) 14:56, 11 June 2015 (UTC)
- I was modeling this table after the list of alternative metal artists, which sometimes included other styles. I think it's important to list the other major genres in order to understand the artist's sound. In the case of And Then There Were None, it is better known for it's electronica then it's metalcore. Or Kekal, which is now mostly an electronic band. Or groups like Kutless and Daughtry that are primarily post-grunge rather than metal. There are other examples, I'm just providing these ones.--3family6 (Talk to me | See what I have done) 16:38, 11 June 2015 (UTC)
- The list of alternative metal artists is, in my opinion, not a good example. Sure And Then There Were None is best known as a dance-oriented band, but it's not really relevent for this list. The list of genre would be excessively long for some entries (including And Then There Were None) and I prefer keeping metal subgenres only. However I think we should restore notes such as "early work", "later work", "mid 1980s", an album, etc. Synthwave.94 (talk) 17:15, 11 June 2015 (UTC)
- I was modeling this table after the list of alternative metal artists, which sometimes included other styles. I think it's important to list the other major genres in order to understand the artist's sound. In the case of And Then There Were None, it is better known for it's electronica then it's metalcore. Or Kekal, which is now mostly an electronic band. Or groups like Kutless and Daughtry that are primarily post-grunge rather than metal. There are other examples, I'm just providing these ones.--3family6 (Talk to me | See what I have done) 16:38, 11 June 2015 (UTC)
- Also I think you should keep metal subgenres only. No need to add dance or other rock subgenres. For example, you should remove indietronica, dance-rock, emo and pop punk for And Then There Were None. Synthwave.94 (talk) 14:56, 11 June 2015 (UTC)
- I certainly see the point, and I'm willing to adjust things. Walter Görlitz, Metalworker14, The Cross Bearer, do any of you want to comment?--3family6 (Talk to me | See what I have done) 17:26, 11 June 2015 (UTC)
- I think it looks fine as it is, I do think we should add a few other bands, that are close to metal, such as Stavesacre and xDisciplex A.D., and actualmetal bands such as Misery Chastain (which is a christian band), Eso-Charis, Dead Poetic, Overcome, Messengers, and there are probably many more, but I have one more currently in editing, and if you can help, the band is Twelve Gauge Valentine, so if you can find any references please add them. Metalworker14 (yo) 8:01, June 11 2015 (UTC)
- I'm adding bands on my sandbox. I think in the end that it is better to just stick to metal genres in the style parameter, or else there will be too many citations floating around, which can affect load time. This list is pretty massive as is.--3family6 (Talk to me | See what I have done) 00:47, 12 June 2015 (UTC)
- It should be United States not just US per the others not being abbreviated.The Cross Bearer (talk) 01:03, 12 June 2015 (UTC)
- I agree. United Kingdom needs to be written out as well.--3family6 (Talk to me | See what I have done) 02:48, 12 June 2015 (UTC)
- Yes, it should, also.The Cross Bearer (talk) 04:17, 12 June 2015 (UTC)
- I agree. United Kingdom needs to be written out as well.--3family6 (Talk to me | See what I have done) 02:48, 12 June 2015 (UTC)
- It should be United States not just US per the others not being abbreviated.The Cross Bearer (talk) 01:03, 12 June 2015 (UTC)
- I'm adding bands on my sandbox. I think in the end that it is better to just stick to metal genres in the style parameter, or else there will be too many citations floating around, which can affect load time. This list is pretty massive as is.--3family6 (Talk to me | See what I have done) 00:47, 12 June 2015 (UTC)
- I think it looks fine as it is, I do think we should add a few other bands, that are close to metal, such as Stavesacre and xDisciplex A.D., and actualmetal bands such as Misery Chastain (which is a christian band), Eso-Charis, Dead Poetic, Overcome, Messengers, and there are probably many more, but I have one more currently in editing, and if you can help, the band is Twelve Gauge Valentine, so if you can find any references please add them. Metalworker14 (yo) 8:01, June 11 2015 (UTC)
- I think that will work for images. Because they are put into sections, the page should render correctly on a mobile device.--3family6 (Talk to me | See what I have done) 21:31, 10 June 2015 (UTC)
It's not a traditional format, but it addresses several issues. The 0–9 table has a spacing issue and Tempest is missing an origin cell. I have not looked at it more deeply. Walter Görlitz (talk) 04:58, 12 June 2015 (UTC)
- I addressed both issues brought up by editor, Walter Gorlitz.The Cross Bearer (talk) 06:29, 12 June 2015 (UTC)
Citations needed?
Synthwave.94 has been putting up a refimprove tag because many bands are not cited in the list. There was a point when every artist on this list was cited, but at some point there was a consensus that as long as the artists were verifiable, not every single one needed a citation, only those likely to be challenged. I looked through the archives, and that is not where the consensus was reached. Was it on a user talk page? I know at one point there was a discussion regarding this, since I believe that I took part in it. Walter Görlitz, do you remember? The change to the current format was when the version on User:Invisiboy43393's sandox was merged into this list. The old version of the band list prior to the change is here. I also think this discussion is something to revisit as some editors (here's looking at you, Metalworker14) are adding bands without citations, without first demonstrating that these listings are verifiable.--3family6 (Talk to me | See what I have done) 02:26, 4 June 2015 (UTC)
- I think the conversation started here: Talk:List of Christian punk bands/Archive 1#Consensus on bands. I'm not sure I agree that lists need references though. I think that any that might be challenged should have references. Walter Görlitz (talk) 04:16, 4 June 2015 (UTC)
- I'm sorry if I caused any trouble. From now on I'll add Citations. Metalworker14 (yo) 9:22, 4 June 2015 (UTC)
- No trouble, Metalworker14, and my above aside to you was meant good-naturedly. But, yes, please add citations from now on.--3family6 (Talk to me | See what I have done) 14:08, 4 June 2015 (UTC)
- I'm sorry if I caused any trouble. From now on I'll add Citations. Metalworker14 (yo) 9:22, 4 June 2015 (UTC)
- Thanks for that link, Walter.--3family6 (Talk to me | See what I have done) 14:28, 4 June 2015 (UTC)
- A list should be correctly referenced, just like any regular article. WP:LISTPEOPLE clearly says : "The person's membership in [a] list's group is established by reliable sources". Even if here the list is about bands it doesn't change anything at all and sources are still required anyway. The fact it is "easy to verify" is irrelevent because someone else may disagree about the inclusion/exclusion of the band in/out of the list. Synthwave.94 (talk) 16:40, 4 June 2015 (UTC)
- However I can look for sources to improve this list and I encourage everybody (including you, 3family6) to do the same. Synthwave.94 (talk) 16:58, 4 June 2015 (UTC)
- I just realized that a hidden clearly stated "Please only add bands that are sourced as Christian metal. Bands without sources may be deleted." But I imagine I'm the only one who realized this hidden note existed... Synthwave.94 (talk) 17:21, 4 June 2015 (UTC)
- "Established by reliable sources" is not the same thing as "all listings require direct citations." All the older entries on here are established in reliable sources. Some of the latest additions I'm not so sure about, as I mentioned above, and citations should be provided for those. But most of the older entries don't need citations for their primary genre - no one is going to dispute that Mortification is death metal or that Stryper is hard rock and glam metal, or dispute that those bands are Christian. Likewise, the entries under "Early Christian metal bands" are widely established in reliable sources as the (sub)genre's progenitors, so those don't really need specific citations. However, many of the other entries, or listings of a group under a particular style, might be challenged, and thus need citations. Looking over this list, I do think that some more citations should be added (for instance, Skillet as symphonic metal). The relevant guideline is WP:WHYCITE, and is similar to Wikipedia's verifiability policy as outlined in WP:UNSOURCED. The key point of distinction here is that citations are not the same thing as reliable sources. Citations are inline attribution to reliable sources. Not everything in an article must be cited, as long as all the material is verifiable. If you do want to reinsert citations for every entry, Synthwave.94, look through this revision FIRST before you spend hours scouring the internet for sources, as every entry should be cited in that revision.--3family6 (Talk to me | See what I have done) 19:28, 4 June 2015 (UTC)
- Most lists used references to prove all the entries actually to a specific genre and I think I've already give you an example with the list of blues rock musicians. But thank you for giving me a link to an old revision of the list. I'm going to combine sources mentionned in this revision with better sources which explicitly associate each band with the specific subgenre of Christian metal they are supposed to belong to. Synthwave.94 (talk) 19:38, 4 June 2015 (UTC)
- You're welcome and thank you!--3family6 (Talk to me | See what I have done) 21:54, 4 June 2015 (UTC)
- Most lists used references to prove all the entries actually to a specific genre and I think I've already give you an example with the list of blues rock musicians. But thank you for giving me a link to an old revision of the list. I'm going to combine sources mentionned in this revision with better sources which explicitly associate each band with the specific subgenre of Christian metal they are supposed to belong to. Synthwave.94 (talk) 19:38, 4 June 2015 (UTC)
- "Established by reliable sources" is not the same thing as "all listings require direct citations." All the older entries on here are established in reliable sources. Some of the latest additions I'm not so sure about, as I mentioned above, and citations should be provided for those. But most of the older entries don't need citations for their primary genre - no one is going to dispute that Mortification is death metal or that Stryper is hard rock and glam metal, or dispute that those bands are Christian. Likewise, the entries under "Early Christian metal bands" are widely established in reliable sources as the (sub)genre's progenitors, so those don't really need specific citations. However, many of the other entries, or listings of a group under a particular style, might be challenged, and thus need citations. Looking over this list, I do think that some more citations should be added (for instance, Skillet as symphonic metal). The relevant guideline is WP:WHYCITE, and is similar to Wikipedia's verifiability policy as outlined in WP:UNSOURCED. The key point of distinction here is that citations are not the same thing as reliable sources. Citations are inline attribution to reliable sources. Not everything in an article must be cited, as long as all the material is verifiable. If you do want to reinsert citations for every entry, Synthwave.94, look through this revision FIRST before you spend hours scouring the internet for sources, as every entry should be cited in that revision.--3family6 (Talk to me | See what I have done) 19:28, 4 June 2015 (UTC)
Note to editors (particularly Synthwave.94): Music Might IS reliable if the content is by Garry Sharpe-Young/Taniwha, as explained here. However, I think it is best to use this as a last resort, for bands for which we cannot find another source.--3family6 (Talk to me | See what I have done) 17:21, 5 June 2015 (UTC)
- Ok, but can you please stop adding unsourced entries to this list ? I noticed you've been restoring improperly sourced material to the list that I previously removed (and for good reasons). Synthwave.94 (talk) 19:56, 6 June 2015 (UTC)
- The entries are verifiable, and the under construction tag indicates to readers that the article is a work in progress.--3family6 (Talk to me | See what I have done) 20:00, 6 June 2015 (UTC)
- I have a day off of work on Monday, so by the end of Monday everything will have a citation, or it will go.--3family6 (Talk to me | See what I have done) 04:42, 7 June 2015 (UTC)
- I've already started looking after sources for you unsourced entries but I realized some of the bands you added are Christian rock or punk pands (and therefore they don't belong to this specific list) or are metal bands which are not explicitly associated with Christianity. Some of them are redirected to other articles. Synthwave.94 (talk) 10:44, 7 June 2015 (UTC)
- There might be some entries that weren't metal, or aren't Christian, that came in due to list creep. However, punk or rock bands that are also sourced as metal should be listed. If you are going to specify that the artist be primarily known for being metal, then that's fine. However, you listed Opprobrium, which is not Christian, but I haven't objected because the band is associated with Christian metal in a reliable source. That's why I added Trouble and Evanescence, which were far more explicit in their Christian ties but later distanced themselves from the Christian metal scene.--3family6 (Talk to me | See what I have done) 17:53, 7 June 2015 (UTC)
- I sticked to sourced I found only. Just because their articles mention metal genres is irrelevent : there was no source to support them in their articles and they were not mentionned in the specific Christian-related websites I used to complete the list, so I removed them from the list. Regarding the sources you added for Trouble and Evanescence, they were unrelated to these bands and the reviews you used didn't specifically describe them as Christian bands. If you find other sources which mention Christian themes and gothic/nu/alternative metal for Evanescence then you can restore this band, as Trouble is already in the list. Synthwave.94 (talk) 18:38, 7 June 2015 (UTC)
- There might be some entries that weren't metal, or aren't Christian, that came in due to list creep. However, punk or rock bands that are also sourced as metal should be listed. If you are going to specify that the artist be primarily known for being metal, then that's fine. However, you listed Opprobrium, which is not Christian, but I haven't objected because the band is associated with Christian metal in a reliable source. That's why I added Trouble and Evanescence, which were far more explicit in their Christian ties but later distanced themselves from the Christian metal scene.--3family6 (Talk to me | See what I have done) 17:53, 7 June 2015 (UTC)
Re Synthwave.94 and Walter Görlitz - I found where the consensus about sources emerged: Talk:List of Christian hardcore bands#Something I noticed...(continued).--3family6 (Talk to me | See what I have done) 04:07, 8 June 2015 (UTC)
- Metalworker14, can you please stop adding unsourced additions to the list ? See the hidden text and read WP:BURDEN. Synthwave.94 (talk) 13:40, 10 June 2015 (UTC)
- Sorry Synthwave, will do. Metalworker14 (yo) 9:57, June 10, 2015 (UTC)
- Metal-archives.com doesn't look like a reliable source (unless you can prove I'm wrong) so I added another source instead of this one. Synthwave.94 (talk) 14:19, 10 June 2015 (UTC)
- The reason why I doubt about this source is because of the text at the bottom of the page : "Modified by" and 'Last modified on" suggest a user-generated database. Synthwave.94 (talk) 14:23, 10 June 2015 (UTC)
- Metalworker14, the source you added to support "Southern metal" for the Chariot doesn't mention this genre : it only mentions "Southern rock". You should be aware that you need to stick to what sources say. Synthwave.94 (talk) 14:27, 10 June 2015 (UTC)
- OK sorry. Metalworker14 (yo) 10:29, June 10, 2015 (UTC)
- Same thing for the Advent : "hardcore" and "metalcore" are not the same thing. "Hardcore" can refer to "hardcore punk", which is not a metal subgenre but a punk subgenre, and the source never specifies the Advent is a metal band. You really need to be careful about the sources you use to support your additions. Synthwave.94 (talk) 14:35, 10 June 2015 (UTC)
- @Metalworker14: : I understand you want to complete the list but your additions are poorly sourced. Sources such as Last.fm and AllMusic sidebars are not considered reliable and other additions are not even supported by the sources you added to support them. Please understand that you need to find reliable sources and, as I said before, you need to stick to sources. If the material is not in the source you provide then it is considered original research. Therefore I'd suggest you to discuss your changes on the talk page before making them. Synthwave.94 (talk) 15:01, 10 June 2015 (UTC)
- OK sorry. Metalworker14 (yo) 10:29, June 10, 2015 (UTC)
- Sorry Synthwave, will do. Metalworker14 (yo) 9:57, June 10, 2015 (UTC)
Encyclopaedia Metallum: The Metal Archives is user-generated. Last.fm is also user-generated. AllMusic genre tags have been determined to be unreliable - stick to the reviews or biographies (or the articles - AllMusic publishes some excellent articles, though they usually aren't cited).--3family6 (Talk to me | See what I have done) 16:18, 10 June 2015 (UTC)
Continuing issues
The below is from Synthwave.94's talkpage, with comments from me. It is discussing this revision of the article.
- For which you decided to use MusicMight/Rockdector "categories", which seem to be unreliable, because they are most of the time not mentionned at all in the artist's biography. For example, Altera Enigma is only described as an experimental Chritian metal band and not as a death metal band. August Red Burn is only described as a metalcore band and prgressive metal is not mentionned at all in the biography. Unless you can prove I'm wrong these categories look dubious and we shouldn't rely on them.
- The categories can be assumed to be put there by Garry-Sharpe Young, the contributor. Just because the style isn't mentioned in the bio, why should we assume that it's wrong? The reason that AllMusic tags have been rejected is because they are independent of the reviewer and sometimes directly conflict with the written review.--3family6 (Talk to me | See what I have done) 02:50, 14 June 2015 (UTC)
- For which you added unrelated reviews. I especially think about all your Crosswalk.com and The Phantom Tollbooth additions, which very often compares sound between several artists but without explicitly saying if they are Christian or not (non-Christian metal bands are mentionned very often, by the way).
- It is perfectly acceptable to use one source to support the style of the artist, if another source has identified the group as Christian. When I mentioned this earlier you voiced no objection.--3family6 (Talk to me | See what I have done) 02:50, 14 June 2015 (UTC)
- For which you simply decided to add a dubious foreign language source which doesn't even support your additions. Seriously, where do you see "symphonic metal" or "gothic metal" in this source ?
- The fact that a source is foreign language does not disqualify it. While English is preferred, it might not be possible. The reviewer in this source mentions "symphonic gothic doom" (as far as I can tell from the Google Translate, which is a bit messed up there). If there was such a genre as "doom rock," then there would be ambiguity. But since the only genre called "doom" is metal, it is reasonable to read the other adjectives as describing the type of doom metal. If you want to tag the parameter as "symphonic doom metal" and "Gothic doom metal," I won't object, but I will note that for sources referring to an artist as "Southern metalcore," you found it acceptable to parse out "metalcore" and "Southern metal."--3family6 (Talk to me | See what I have done) 02:50, 14 June 2015 (UTC)
- For which you added sources which only mention words such as "tinged", "elements", "influenced", etc.
- This is a good point, to an extent. I think this should be done on a case-by-case basis, based on how strong the source indicates those elements or influences are. "Tinged" is a weak supporter, I agree.--3family6 (Talk to me | See what I have done) 02:50, 14 June 2015 (UTC)
- For which you added sources which only support the album, but as explained on the article talk page you just need to add the corresponding album and I'm not going to remove the sources you used.
- Yes and no. IF a style appears mainly or entirely on that album, and/or is not typical of the artist as a whole. I don't the album itself needs to be noted in every case. This is part of a broader issue where you have a method of using sources that differs from that established by the community - albums are, in general practice, acceptable for establishing the style of an artist. Sure, we need to consider due weight and such, but as a general principle albums are fine.--3family6 (Talk to me | See what I have done) 02:50, 14 June 2015 (UTC)
Now here's the complete list of the artist which need to be removed/require better sources/etc. for the reasons I've just explained :
- 12 Stones (because of MusicMight "categories", biography doesn't mention any genre)
- See above regarding categories.--3family6 (Talk to me | See what I have done) 02:50, 14 June 2015 (UTC)
- Altera Enigma (because of MusicMight "categories")
- Ditto for this one.--3family6 (Talk to me | See what I have done) 02:50, 14 June 2015 (UTC)
- As I Lay Dying (add Awakened for thrash metal)
- See above regarding albums.--3family6 (Talk to me | See what I have done) 02:50, 14 June 2015 (UTC)
- Audiovision (Lords of Metal doesn't looks like a reliable reference)
- Lords of Metal is an e-zine with a full editorial staff.--3family6 (Talk to me | See what I have done) 02:50, 14 June 2015 (UTC)
- August Burns Red (for progressive metal)
- Another MusicMight category issue as above.--3family6 (Talk to me | See what I have done) 02:50, 14 June 2015 (UTC)
- Becoming the Archetype (add Dichotomy for melodic death metal)
- Might be right on this one, but I don't think the album needs to be noted.--3family6 (Talk to me | See what I have done) 02:50, 14 June 2015 (UTC)
- Callisto ("post-metal" is only mentionned by a band member)
- No, it's mentioned by the interviewer. I think a better objection is that the interviewer calls it an "influence" rather than outright saying that the band is/was post-metal. Probably need a better source.--3family6 (Talk to me | See what I have done) 02:50, 14 June 2015 (UTC)
- The Chariot ("Southern metalcore" is only a form of "metalcore")
- So it could be mentioned as "Southern metalcore," I agree. There might be enough written on this subgenre to go into the Southern rock article.--3family6 (Talk to me | See what I have done) 02:50, 14 June 2015 (UTC)
- Circle of Dust (not associated with Christian themes)
- It is in other sources, I forgot to add a citation for this one.--3family6 (Talk to me | See what I have done) 02:50, 14 June 2015 (UTC)
- Creed (not associated with Christian themes)
- It is explicitly associated in AllMusic, which I cited, but you removed.--3family6 (Talk to me | See what I have done) 02:50, 14 June 2015 (UTC)
- Cry of the Afflicted (not associated with Christian themes)
- Same case as with Creed.--3family6 (Talk to me | See what I have done) 02:50, 14 June 2015 (UTC)
- Daughtry (unrelated review, not associated with Christian themes)
- Same case as with Creed.--3family6 (Talk to me | See what I have done) 02:50, 14 June 2015 (UTC)
- Demise of Eros (only one song described as metalcore)
- Good catch, will find a different source.--3family6 (Talk to me | See what I have done) 02:50, 14 June 2015 (UTC)
- Demon Hunter (add True Defiance for groove metal, Nocleansinging.com seems to be an unreliable source)
- And why do you think Nocleansinging is unreliable? It has an editorial staff, and from my perusing (over a period of time), seems to maintain a standard of accuracy.--3family6 (Talk to me | See what I have done) 02:50, 14 June 2015 (UTC)
- DigHayZoose (not associated with Christian themes)
- Again, I cited this earlier, but you removed.--3family6 (Talk to me | See what I have done) 02:50, 14 June 2015 (UTC)
- Disciple (unrelated review for "pop metal", add Southern Hospitality for Southern metal)
- Review doesn't have to be directly of that artist- reviews often refer to the style of another artist, as is the case here. Southern metal isn't just on Southern Hospitality, but on other later work by the band.--3family6 (Talk to me | See what I have done) 02:50, 14 June 2015 (UTC)
- Drottnar (add Spiritual Battle for "death/doom" and "Viking metal")
- No contention here, though perhaps "early" would work better, since after all Spiritual Battle was a compilation of previous demos.--3family6 (Talk to me | See what I have done) 02:50, 14 June 2015 (UTC)
- Eowyn (add Silent Screams for pop metal)
- Probably a good idea since "metal" is probably not the overall sound she is known for.--3family6 (Talk to me | See what I have done) 02:50, 14 June 2015 (UTC)
- Evanescence (unrelated review for "pop metal")
- Doesn't matter, as explained above with Disciple.--3family6 (Talk to me | See what I have done) 02:50, 14 June 2015 (UTC)
- Extol (add Burial for thrash metal, "melodic death metal" is not mentionned by Lords of Metal—a dubious source,—"elements of progressive metal" for the Cross Rhythms review, Metal Forces explicitly mentions "technical and progressive black metal", see WP:STICKTOSOURCE)
- Thrash is found (in reliable sources, no less) for other albums. Lords of Metal mentions "death metal in the Gothenburg way" - Gothenburg metal is another name for the style of melodic death metal developed in Gothenburg, Sweden. I guess you could narrow the definition to "progressive black metal," but I know that there are other sources for progressive metal in the broader sense.
- Family Force 5 (how is Something Awful a reliable website ?)
- It appeared to have an editorial staff, but I'm not that familiar with it so it might not be reliable.--3family6 (Talk to me | See what I have done) 02:50, 14 June 2015 (UTC)
- Fearscape (only described as a "black metal band" by both sources, other genres only apply for an album)
- Considering that the album constitutes 50% of that band's full-length discography, I don't think this is a stretch of imagination to assume that those styles can be applied to the band as a whole.--3family6 (Talk to me | See what I have done) 02:50, 14 June 2015 (UTC)
- Fireflight (add Unbreakable for nu metal, first source for "pop metal" is an unrelated review)
- Might need to be noted regarding nu metal, second issue doesn't matter.--3family6 (Talk to me | See what I have done) 02:50, 14 June 2015 (UTC)
- Frost Like Ashes ("black/death metal" apply for three songs only)
- Hmm? It's a demo, with only three songs on it. And in this case the demo is representative of the band very well.--3family6 (Talk to me | See what I have done) 02:50, 14 June 2015 (UTC)
- Galactic Cowboys (unrelated review/biography for groove/progressive metal)
- Again, doesn't matter.--3family6 (Talk to me | See what I have done) 02:50, 14 June 2015 (UTC)
- He is Legend (source doesn't prove it is a Christian band)
- I think, haven't gone through the diffs to confirm though, that I included a citation which you removed.--3family6 (Talk to me | See what I have done) 02:50, 14 June 2015 (UTC)
- Holy Blood ("speed and heaviness of death and black metal" / "Viking metal influence" is not enough to support death/black/Viking metal)
- The "Viking metal influence" might be weak, or possibly only apply to that album (I haven't seen this challenged on the List of Viking metal bands though). The black and death metal reference says "Holy Blood combines traditional folk music with the speed and heaviness of death and black metal." I don't see how doesn't support black and death metal - if anything, it specifies how the band utilizes those genres.--3family6 (Talk to me | See what I have done) 02:50, 14 June 2015 (UTC)
- Immortal Souls (source describe the band as "winter metal" only)
- Review says " I know this review is extremely long, but IV: The Requiem For The Art Of Death is an amazing work of art that every fan of melodic death metal or 80’s-styled technical metal should check out." Probably a better source can be found.
- Impellitteri (not associated with Christian themes, AllMusic sidebars are unreliable and don't count to support "neo-classical metal")
- Opening sentence: "Band formed by high-speed neo-classical guitarist Chris Impelliteri..." - short-hand for the full genre name ("neo-classical metal"), same as "crossover" or "doom" or others. Does need a source for Christian aspect, which isn't hard to do.
- Impending Doom (elements of alternative metal only, add each album associated with other genres to stick to source)
- Why do the albums specifically need to be mentioned? I already specified which general periods in the band's history it performed certain genres. Alternative influences might be weak, though the source seemed to refer to it as a descriptor of the band's later sound.--3family6 (Talk to me | See what I have done) 02:50, 14 June 2015 (UTC)
- Justifide (described as Christian rock)
- First sentence: "The year was 1999 and Christian rock band Justifide were poised to make some noise in the sea of nu metal and rapcore bands, and now after being gone for around a decade, they're back."--3family6 (Talk to me | See what I have done) 02:50, 14 June 2015 (UTC)
- Kekal (how are Progressive.homestead.com, Psychevanhetfolk.homestead.com and Lords of Metal reliable sources ? Why did you chose two German language sources to support other additions for this band ?)
- The first to are web versions of content broadcast on a show on Radio Centraal. I already addressed Lords of Metal in an above comment (why is assumed that web versions of magazines are less reliable than print, if an editorial staff is present?) Why did I choose German sources? Because they support the content!--3family6 (Talk to me | See what I have done) 02:50, 14 June 2015 (UTC)
- King's X (unrelated review/biography)
- Doesn't matter.--3family6 (Talk to me | See what I have done) 02:50, 14 June 2015 (UTC)
- Kutless (first review is unrelated and doesn't associate Kutless with Christian themes)
- So? First source still refers to the band's style (in a broad, non-album-specific way), and the second source supports Christian themes.--3family6 (Talk to me | See what I have done) 02:50, 14 June 2015 (UTC)
- Lengsel ("avant-garde metal" used to describe The Kiss The Hope, dubious ezine)
- Again, the style isn't limited to just that album, and addressed ezine above.--3family6 (Talk to me | See what I have done) 02:50, 14 June 2015 (UTC)
- Living Sacrifice (Jesus Freak Hideout reference is a reader review and should be removed, Nocleansinging.com seems to be unreliable)
- For someone who says that I need to be careful about sources, did you not notice the staff review underneath the reader review!? Addressed Nocleansinging above.--3family6 (Talk to me | See what I have done) 02:50, 14 June 2015 (UTC)
- Lust Control (how reliable is Detonation ? "Thrash punk" referes to an album only for this source)
- Not entirely sure about Detonation, but has an editorial staff. Won't press on this issue since another source also supports.--3family6 (Talk to me | See what I have done) 02:50, 14 June 2015 (UTC)
- Maylene and the Sons of Disaster ("Southern metalcore" is only a form of "metalcore")
- Okay, as I said above, I'm find mentioning this as a metalcore subgenre.
- Mehida ("power metal and progressive influences" mentionned by About.com, not explicitly called a progressive/power metal band by Blistering)
- Quote from Blistering, with emphasis added: "Mehida, a similar band in style and approach, but a band that is nowhere near the level of Serenity or any good prog/power metal band for that matter. About.com isn't that strong on it's own, but Blistering indicates how strong the prog/power aspects are.--3family6 (Talk to me | See what I have done) 02:50, 14 June 2015 (UTC)
- Mortal (not associated with Christian themes)
- Again, you removed the source proving this.--3family6 (Talk to me | See what I have done) 02:50, 14 June 2015 (UTC)
- Mortal Treason (add Sunrise Over a Sea of Blood for death metal)
- Again, representative of the overall style.--3family6 (Talk to me | See what I have done) 02:50, 14 June 2015 (UTC)
- Mortification (not described as grindcore by Thompson)
- I already said that I accidentally put in the wrong book here, and I fixed that. So why still harp on this?--3family6 (Talk to me | See what I have done) 02:50, 14 June 2015 (UTC)
- Narnia (add Enter the Gate for glam metal)
- I don't really object to this.--3family6 (Talk to me | See what I have done) 02:50, 14 June 2015 (UTC)
- One Bad Pig (described as a "punk band" by AllMusic)
- Yes, but it also says that "depending on where you stood in the audience, as either a generic thrash band or a punk parody." - The band was a crossover thrash band, I just haven't been able to find reliable sources calling it exactly that. The "punk metal" reference comes close.--3family6 (Talk to me | See what I have done) 02:50, 14 June 2015 (UTC)
- Plumb (add Chaotic Resolve for pop metal)
- No contention here, I preserved that.--3family6 (Talk to me | See what I have done) 02:50, 14 June 2015 (UTC)
- The Showdown (death metal seems to refer to A Chorus Of Obliteration)
- Very well could, I'm willing to have that noted, though there's been no real contention over the band being listed on the list of melodic death metal bands.--3family6 (Talk to me | See what I have done) 02:50, 14 June 2015 (UTC)
- Since October (Noisecreep doesn't mention Christian themes, Crosswalk.com doesn't explicitly describe the band as "glam metal")
- Noisecreep supports alternative metal. I agree that Crosswalk.com doesn't call the band "glam metal," as I mentioned on your talk page already, and I had, in the revision being discussed here, listed "pop metal," the style explicitly mentioned.--3family6 (Talk to me | See what I have done) 02:50, 14 June 2015 (UTC)
- Strongarm (second source for "metalcore" is unrelated to the band)
- Review isn't related, the mentioned is related (of course!).--3family6 (Talk to me | See what I have done) 02:50, 14 June 2015 (UTC)
Veni Domine (add Spiritual Wasteland for gothic and traditional heavy metal, Metal Forces only describes one song as "progressive doom metal" but "progressive metal" never refers to the band)
- Correct on Metal Forces, a better source needed here. As regards to the other points, I don't think this needs to be specified, for reasons I've already elaborated on.--3family6 (Talk to me | See what I have done) 02:50, 14 June 2015 (UTC)
- Virgin Black (Finnish source never mentions "symphonic metal" or "gothic metal").
- This issue I addressed above. The review mentions "symphonic gothic doom," which is readily understandable to be a description of a mix of all three metal genres.--3family6 (Talk to me | See what I have done) 02:50, 14 June 2015 (UTC)
There, I think that gets all the objections addressed (note that I agree with some).--3family6 (Talk to me | See what I have done) 02:50, 14 June 2015 (UTC)
Extreme Metal
Does Sludge Metal count as extreme metal? Cause if so, I'm adding Trenches to the Extreme Metal part of the list. Metalworker14 (Yo) 3:53, June 27 2015 (UTC)
- The whole classification by genre is probably going to be scrapped, judging by the above discussion.--3family6 (Talk to me | See what I have done) 00:44, 28 June 2015 (UTC)
Shredded Corpse
Hey, I don't believe that Shredded Corpse, is a Christian band. It says on Metal Archives that, they are Anti-Christian. --Metalworker14 (Yo) 23:32, 9 July 2015 (UTC)
- Sharpe-Young explicitly describes this band as a Christian metal act, along with other acts Rocky Gray was associated with. Synthwave.94 (talk) 01:52, 10 July 2015 (UTC)
- Well, OK. But is it possible that he's wrong? --Metalworker14 (Yo) 15:55, 10 July 2015 (UTC)
- Just looking at the album titles, he's clearly wrong. I think he lumped that band in just because Rocky Gray later played in Christian bands. I don't know much about Gray at all, but I think it's very possible that he was in this band and then became a Christian and left.--3family6 (Talk to me | See what I have done) 17:12, 10 July 2015 (UTC)
- Sharpe-Young wrote : "Gray also holds a tradition with various Christian Metal acts including KILL SYSTEM, SHREDDED CORPSE, LIVING SACRIFICE and SOUL EMBRACED.", which suggests Shredded Corpse is a Christian metal band. Synthwave.94 (talk) 19:24, 10 July 2015 (UTC)
- It isn't. Take a look at the album titles on the band's Wikipedia article. I've tried to find some lyrics from the band, but I haven't been successful. Normally, a passing mention such as the above by Sharpe-Young would be fine. However, in this case, his is the only source for Shredded Corpse being Christian, and the band's explicit sexual content indicates that Sharpe-Young was wrong here.--3family6 (Talk to me | See what I have done) 14:14, 14 July 2015 (UTC)
- Also Look at the band's Myspace page. It reads: "Shredded Corpse 666". There is no way they are Christian. --Metalworker14 (Yo) 17:55, 15 July 2015 (UTC)
- I removed this entry from the list. Synthwave.94 (talk) 19:05, 15 July 2015 (UTC)
- Also Look at the band's Myspace page. It reads: "Shredded Corpse 666". There is no way they are Christian. --Metalworker14 (Yo) 17:55, 15 July 2015 (UTC)
- It isn't. Take a look at the album titles on the band's Wikipedia article. I've tried to find some lyrics from the band, but I haven't been successful. Normally, a passing mention such as the above by Sharpe-Young would be fine. However, in this case, his is the only source for Shredded Corpse being Christian, and the band's explicit sexual content indicates that Sharpe-Young was wrong here.--3family6 (Talk to me | See what I have done) 14:14, 14 July 2015 (UTC)
- Sharpe-Young wrote : "Gray also holds a tradition with various Christian Metal acts including KILL SYSTEM, SHREDDED CORPSE, LIVING SACRIFICE and SOUL EMBRACED.", which suggests Shredded Corpse is a Christian metal band. Synthwave.94 (talk) 19:24, 10 July 2015 (UTC)
- Just looking at the album titles, he's clearly wrong. I think he lumped that band in just because Rocky Gray later played in Christian bands. I don't know much about Gray at all, but I think it's very possible that he was in this band and then became a Christian and left.--3family6 (Talk to me | See what I have done) 17:12, 10 July 2015 (UTC)
- Well, OK. But is it possible that he's wrong? --Metalworker14 (Yo) 15:55, 10 July 2015 (UTC)
What's going on here?
This article is boomeranging back-and-forth, lets please come to some rational consensus, with regards to this matter.The Cross Bearer (talk) 02:50, 14 June 2015 (UTC)
- Agreed. The current version I reverted to was the last stable version, albeit for the refimprove template, which I think should be kept in place as there are some dubious entries and subsequent edits destabilized the article. I'm opening an RfC.--3family6 (Talk to me | See what I have done) 03:02, 14 June 2015 (UTC)
- Good, I can't want to see what comes of the situation.The Cross Bearer (talk) 03:03, 14 June 2015 (UTC)
Are album reviews reliable, in general practice, for establishing the style of an artist? Does a source have to mention both that artist's Christianity and the style they play in order to be considered a Christian artist performing a particular style? Is a mention of an artist in a review of a different artist's work reliable for the first artist's genre? Should styles even be included on this list? Does a mention of a style on one album justify inclusion of the artist on this list?
Synthwave.94 and myself have gotten into a dispute, in which Metalworker14 and The Cross Bearer unfortunately have gotten thrown into out of no intent of their own, over how this article should be sourced. The current version is the version Synthwave.94 established when he put in a refimprove tag. I reverted this, because the consensus was that not every entry needs a citation as long as all entries are verifiable. However, the consequent editing and attempt to restructure and re-citation the list has gotten myself and Synthwave.94 into an impasse. They insist on a particular way of sourcing the list, and while I agree with much of their work, I think that their narrow approach is not the consensus of the community. This editor has gotten blocked before due to genre warring on Den Harrow and Baltimora, though they have greatly improved in their editing style since then. I myself was involved in those disputes, and have also gotten into similar genre disputes (not involving Synthwave), in which I edit warred, on Amon Amarth and Viking metal.
Basically, the questions are these:
- Are album reviews reliable, in general practice, for establishing the style of an artist? I grant that in some cases a style may appear only on an album and/or not be representative of the artist's overall work. If that is the case, how do we determine that?
- Does a source have to mention both that artist's Christianity and the style they play in order to be listed? If one source describes an artist as Christian, or using Christian themes, and another describes them as "rock" or metal," and there's no real dispute that either source is wrong (the first is right that the artist is Christian, the second that they are rock or metal, is it not a reasonable inference that the artist in question could be listed on the rock or metal list? The consensus has been on this and other Christian musician lists that this is not original synthesis but a reasonable inference.
- Is a mention of an artist in a review of a different artist's work reliable for the first artist's genre? Example: is a review saying "this album is a similar alternative metal style as performed by x artist" reliable for labeling x artist as alternative metal.
- Should styles even be included on this list? This discussion goes back five years to when I first started editing on Wikipedia. There have been versions of this page that have included specific styles (as the list of Christian rock bands does), and versions that have excluded this.
- Does a mention of a style on one album justify inclusion on that style's artist list? Right now, the lead states "including bands that played Christian metal at some point in their careers." Should this be changed so as to narrow down which artists are included?--3family6 (Talk to me | See what I have done) 03:23, 14 June 2015 (UTC)
Wait are you saying, I'm kicked out of this discussion? That's rude. Metalworker14 (yo) 1:52, June 14, 2015 (UTC)
- @Metalworker14: I did not get that gist out of what 3family6 wrote above, where he was precluding you from the discussion or myself, for that matter. The editor was trying to let others' know, who were the innocent bystanders getting run through the muck of a spat of two other editors, namely himself and Synthwave.94. You are more than obliged to take part in this discussion, and so am I. I just want to see what others' have to say in regards to the questions posed here by 3family6. So, I will refrain from putting my proverbial 2 Cents into this discussion, for the time being.The Cross Bearer (talk) 00:09, 15 June 2015 (UTC)
- @Metalworker14: The Cross Bearer is correct: I was trying to say the you and Cross Bearer are just trying to work on adding entries to the list, and the conflict between Synthwave.94 and I has kind of run both of you over. I encourage you to participate in the discussion, if you wish to do so.--3family6 (Talk to me | See what I have done) 03:11, 15 June 2015 (UTC)
- Comment Greetings, I was called by the bot. In order for an album or an artist to be considered "Christian Metal" or "Christian Rock" or "Christian anything," the genre of the music being created is what's key, not the occult beliefs or lack thereof of the people creating the music. You don't look at Dolly Parton's music and call her "Christian Country" just because she's a Christian. If she were to create gospel or songs which were soaking in Christian occult mythology and symbolism, and if she were to identify herself as "Christian Country," then one could suggest in Wikipedia that she does "Christian Country."
- So it should be with the extant article here. If the artist identifies herself as creating "Christian Metal" and if the songs are seeped in Christian occultism and mythology, it would be appropriate to classify the artist and what she produces as "Christian Metal." Lacking those two constraints, I would not expect such a classification to be reasonable. Damotclese (talk) 17:17, 15 June 2015 (UTC)
- Damotclese, I agree with that assessment myself, that the intent and message of the lyrics is the key factor. But, using you example, one source called Dolly Parton's music "Christian music," and another called her music country, would it be unreasonable to list her as a "Christian country artist?"--3family6 (Talk to me | See what I have done) 20:24, 15 June 2015 (UTC)
- Comment - I'm thinking that it may be best to remove genre labels entirely, and just give sources supporting a band as Christian metal (or a source for Christian and another for metal, as discussed above). The intent to categorizing by genre or listing it in a parameter in a table was twofold: 1) because Christian metal is a lyrical genre, not a sonic one, it could be useful to give readers an idea of what styles of metal a given artist performs. 2) because some entries supported in reliable sources as "pop metal," "nu metal," or "alternative metal" might not seem appropriate for the list, because those artists might not be known for a metal sound, and such a classification or parameter might help explain things. But since this idea is proving to be increasingly problematic and unwieldy, I'm not opposed to scrapping it.--3family6 (Talk to me | See what I have done) 18:51, 16 June 2015 (UTC)
- No, it should just list Christian metal artists, like the List of country music performers and List of gospel musicians. Do they specify outlaw country or southern gospel or urban contemporary gospel, nope. So, let's not do that here, either. I don't think we should even use tables, per norm, such as List of Christian hip hop and rap artists. The List of Christian hardcore bands article needs to be addressed, along with this one you are working on right now.The Cross Bearer (talk) 04:07, 17 June 2015 (UTC)
- But you can easily find sources, such as AllMusic biographies, which explicitly mention "Christian" with a metal subgenre. Also several books I used to complete the list explicitly associate several bands with "Christian doom metal", "Christian death metal", etc. Genres which only apply for albums should not be used, however, because they may be misrepresentative of what the artist usually plays. Synthwave.94 (talk) 10:07, 17 June 2015 (UTC)
- @The Cross Bearer: The reason I proposed using a table is because that was one of the recommendations for the List of thrash metal artists during that list's featured article review (which it didn't pass, but for other reasons). My thought was that is editors felt a table was good for that list, it will be good for this list, too.--3family6 (Talk to me | See what I have done) 14:08, 17 June 2015 (UTC)
- Go with the tables, if it is what suits this list article best. The subject of genre is different, though, it is a scope issue, this article is not meant to convey anything else than who are identified as Christian metal artists, only. I would suggest, if you want to do Christian doom metal, you make another list, and title it List of Christian doom metal artists, sourcing it per usual.The Cross Bearer (talk) 00:10, 18 June 2015 (UTC)
- I agree.--3family6 (Talk to me | See what I have done) 17:42, 18 June 2015 (UTC)
- Go with the tables, if it is what suits this list article best. The subject of genre is different, though, it is a scope issue, this article is not meant to convey anything else than who are identified as Christian metal artists, only. I would suggest, if you want to do Christian doom metal, you make another list, and title it List of Christian doom metal artists, sourcing it per usual.The Cross Bearer (talk) 00:10, 18 June 2015 (UTC)
- No, it should just list Christian metal artists, like the List of country music performers and List of gospel musicians. Do they specify outlaw country or southern gospel or urban contemporary gospel, nope. So, let's not do that here, either. I don't think we should even use tables, per norm, such as List of Christian hip hop and rap artists. The List of Christian hardcore bands article needs to be addressed, along with this one you are working on right now.The Cross Bearer (talk) 04:07, 17 June 2015 (UTC)
So, this is what I've seen come out of this now stalled RfC so far: Listing genres is far too problematic for inclusion, so just a straight list of artists who've been labeled Christian metal of some subgenre or other. The outstanding questions I see are these: 1) If an artist played Christian metal on an album, should they be included? As the list stands now, yes, because the opening sentence states that it is a list of artists which have played Christian metal at some point in their careers. However, the consensus may arise that this lead sentence should be changed. 2) If an artist has been established in a source, or multiple sources, as a Christian artist, and another source, or other sources, establish the artist as having played metal at some point in their career as a Christian artist, should that artist be included?--3family6 (Talk to me | See what I have done) 17:48, 5 July 2015 (UTC)
- I agree with your conclusions, about this RfC, I would expect, us to go by an example like Jesus Freak Hideout's disclaimer on the bottom of the page, to be included, with regards to this list, when it states, "All of the artists are or have been linked to the Christian industry and Christian market at one time or another."The Cross Bearer (talk) 03:41, 6 July 2015 (UTC)
- I tend to disagree with choosing a spacific album to support an inclusion, because most of the Christian metal artists previously added in the list played different metal subgenres throughout their career and they were explicitly associated with each one. The intro should be reworded. Also, as the genre parameter is not a problem any more, it should be easier to find a source which mention both Christian themes and "metal" or a metal subgenre. I would take a look at different websites to solve the problem anyway. Synthwave.94 (talk) 17:52, 6 July 2015 (UTC)
- Synthwave.94 I agree that it's best to provide a source that doesn't just refer to an album as metal. However, we need to clear up whether or not it's acceptable to use an album review. Currently, the lead states "played metal at some point," so this would warrant inclusion.--3family6 (Talk to me | See what I have done) 17:17, 10 July 2015 (UTC)
- I removed all albums reviews which use metal (or one of its subgenres) to describe an album and not the artist of the album. Some of them explicitly associated a band with "metal" or a metal subgenre and I didn't remove them. A huge part of the artists included in the list regularly play metal anyway and modifying the lead section would be more appropriate. Synthwave.94 (talk) 19:24, 10 July 2015 (UTC)
- Synthwave.94 I agree that it's best to provide a source that doesn't just refer to an album as metal. However, we need to clear up whether or not it's acceptable to use an album review. Currently, the lead states "played metal at some point," so this would warrant inclusion.--3family6 (Talk to me | See what I have done) 17:17, 10 July 2015 (UTC)
- I tend to disagree with choosing a spacific album to support an inclusion, because most of the Christian metal artists previously added in the list played different metal subgenres throughout their career and they were explicitly associated with each one. The intro should be reworded. Also, as the genre parameter is not a problem any more, it should be easier to find a source which mention both Christian themes and "metal" or a metal subgenre. I would take a look at different websites to solve the problem anyway. Synthwave.94 (talk) 17:52, 6 July 2015 (UTC)
- I disagree with that. So this question still needs to be resolved.--3family6 (Talk to me | See what I have done) 19:46, 10 July 2015 (UTC)
Comment: Checking back in after a long absence. I should note that, even though I originally suggested the genre distinctions, I wholeheartedly agree that removing them here is best, as the alternative is a mile-long list and endless genre warring (though I don't think it's necessary on the punk and hardcore lists, as those are far less cumbersome).
I also agree that we should distinguish between albums somehow; without context, having Evanescence et al on here sounds insane. I think a simple "(early)" or "(first album)" beside the name should suffice in most cases.--Invisiboy42293 (talk) 20:17, 12 August 2015 (UTC)
Christian bands
Hey, who has taken down bands such as Eso-Charis, Everything in Slow Motion, Misery Chastain, and Called To Arms. --Metalworker14 (Yo) 01:04, 6 August 2015 (UTC)
- The sources you provided for these bands are Wikipedia mirrors or user-generated sources and are therefore not suitable for this list. You need to find better sources if you want to restore these artists. Synthwave.94 (talk) 11:07, 6 August 2015 (UTC)
- "Official" websites and label websites are not considered reliable either. Synthwave.94 (talk) 11:09, 6 August 2015 (UTC)
- I'm having trouble finding references for Misery Chastain and Called To Arms. Unless the list of Christian bands on Last.fm counts. It's not Edit able so I'm assuming that it would work.--Metalworker14 (Yo) 14:38, 21 August 2015 (UTC)
- No, this website is user-generated and is therefore unreliable. Please find other sources or simply do not add these bands in the list. Synthwave.94 (talk) 14:50, 21 August 2015 (UTC)
- I'm having trouble finding references for Misery Chastain and Called To Arms. Unless the list of Christian bands on Last.fm counts. It's not Edit able so I'm assuming that it would work.--Metalworker14 (Yo) 14:38, 21 August 2015 (UTC)
- I found a doctoral dissertation that considers Called to Arms as Christian metal band. This source will probably be useful numerous other bands, as well as for the Christian metal article.--3family6 (Talk to me | See what I have done) 16:11, 21 August 2015 (UTC)
- Thanks. What page is Called To arms mentioned on?--Metalworker14 (Yo) 16:46, 21 August 2015 (UTC)
- 135 in the PDF navigation bar, 119 on the bottom of the page.--3family6 (Talk to me | See what I have done) 18:55, 21 August 2015 (UTC)
- Thanks. What page is Called To arms mentioned on?--Metalworker14 (Yo) 16:46, 21 August 2015 (UTC)
- Could you help me find references for Those Who Fear, A Thousand Times Repent, and Clear Convictions? --Metalworker14 (Yo) 22:08, 27 August 2015 (UTC)
- P.S. is Dirge a christian band? --Metalworker14 (Yo) 22:15, 27 August 2015 (UTC)
- Hey 3family6, could you help me find references to add Remembrance, Misery Chastain, and Few Left Standing? Metalworker14 (Yo) 2:16, October 14, 2015 (UTC)
Deborah
? – kgyt (talk) 18:34, 25 December 2015 (UTC)
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