Talk:List of Christian mystics

Methodology of inclusion to list of Christian Mystics.

Hello! I am very interested in adding and expanding to the topics of Christian Mysticism and this list of Christian mystics. I want to add some modern figures.

In my viewpoint, since this theology and mysticism are such widely used and abused topics, this list (which is of utmost value to research), should simultaneously be 'inclusive' and 'descriptive'.

For an example of a point likely to be contested in the future; common assertion that anything related to 'gnosis' or 'secret teachings' is wrong, 'evil occult' or categorically heretical to all traditions, when in fact there is broad reference to true Christian Gnosis (explicitly) in writings by Clement of Alexandria and Origen. (The same articles are often used to excuse any exploration or discussion of mysticism with fundamentalists or some protestant sects who simply refer to the title of the works without having read them, as if knowing the title of a work by a antenicean father automatically supports their argument).

For this reason, I also consider and would support of the inclusion of specific (per-case) christian mystics who have been accused of 'heresy' or might now be considered 'gnostics'at any time in history, since a single preserved accusation in many cases does not create consensus, and many later Church leaders banned the study of mystic church fathers or 'excommunicated them' for reasons clearly attributable to political positioning, since they generally come without serious understanding or criticism of the works they denounce.

These cases should definitely be labeled in some way. I like the chronological history, what does the community think about moving towards a table-format with columns of additional information on the historical figures?

What kind of information should be presented? Useful ones might be 'Church Affiliation', 'Country of Origin','Preserved works', 'lost works' and 'Notable Contributions' (like creation of the Heyschasm movement or the Ignatian Exercises or expanse of dialogue on topics like Chrisian Neoplatonism)

For a researcher these at-a-glance additional sorting fields would be extremely useful. Even a casual reader who just wants to find Spanish Catholic Mystics from the 16th Century.

Cheers! Seraph.dat (talk) 06:48, 13 January 2021 (UTC)

Jesus

Jesus is outside the scope of this list. While it is generally agreed that Jesus existed, the degree of his humanity and divinity is contested. The view that Jesus was human and then was made divine is Adoptionism, only one of many beliefs about the nature of Jesus. Others believe that Jesus was a divine figure co-existent with the Father from the beginning and was God in human form. Docetism held that Jesus' physical body was an illusion. Apollinarism held that Jesus had a human body and lower soul (the seat of the emotions) but a divine mind. Arianism denied that Jesus was divine at all. Monophysitism is the belief that Christ's divinity dominates and overwhelms his humanity, as opposed to the Chalcedonian position which holds that Christ has two natures, one divine and one human, or the Miaphysite position which holds that the human nature and pre-incarnate divine nature of Christ were united as one divine human nature from the point of the Incarnation onwards. Monothelitism holds that Jesus had two natures but only one will, contrary to the orthodox interpretation of Christology, which teaches that Jesus Christ has two wills (human and divine) corresponding to his two natures. Nestorianism held that Jesus was a natural union between the Flesh and the Word, thus not identical, to the divine Son of God. Patripassianism holds that the Father and Son are not two distinct persons, and thus God the Father suffered on the cross as Jesus. These are only some of the beliefs about the humanity-divinity of Jesus.

Then there is the Christ Myth Theory that Jesus did not exist at all (although today this is regarded as WP:FRINGE, but it reflects the contention over the nature of Jesus. The truth is, we do not know the degree to which Jesus was human or divine. The degree of the divinity and humanity of Jesus is a matter of belief and not of established fact, which, as noted, puts Jesus outside the scope of this list. To say, "jesus is god but he came to earth as a human being and attracted to a man" is a statement of belief - Epinoia (talk) 16:48, 4 February 2022 (UTC)

Everything stated here is worthless, the degree of divinity and humanity is a matter of theology not mysticism and it makes no sense not to be on this list, if for example you consider that Jesus was more divine than human does not mean not you can put in the list; In the New Testament, Jesus is represented by countless human beings, such as: (John 11) Jesus wept over the death of Lazarus, (Luke 24) Jesus ate a fish or had a feast at Matthew's funeral (Matthew 9: 9?) , while on the cross Jesus tells his beloved disciple to take care of his mother (John 19-26, another example on the cross tells a soldier that he is thirsty) (Matthew 27:48, Mark 15:36, and John 19:29), Jesus promoted countless times the love that is a human feeling, etc.

For if he did not do these things in reality, I still see no reason not to be on the list, considering that mysticism has been present among his followers since the 1st century.

And I don't think mysticism takes into account a person's degree of divinity, even though the gospels don't have 100% historical credibility, that doesn't mean they don't say anything about the historical Jesus.

Luis Trexxxx (talk) 13:05, 26 February 2022 (UTC)

The article Mysticism says, “Mysticism is popularly known as becoming one with God.” If Jesus is God, then he is already one with God, unless one takes an Adoptionism position that Jesus was fully human and did not become God until after his ascension, but that is only one position among many, with no way of determining which one is correct. So there is no way to confirm that Jesus was a mystic. - Epinoia (talk) 01:03, 27 February 2022 (UTC)

First of all, User:Epinoia (it's hard for you to find or read) you don't have a valid argument because Christianity was not born before or after Jesus' death and didn't have to separate from Judaism, the two religions, or separate because more or less to the leaders of Judaism who did not recognize Jesus as the messiah 46.97.176.205 (talk) 17:25, 23 March 2022 (UTC)

p.s. - please do not re-add Jesus without achieving Talk page consensus, per Wikipedia:Consensus - thanks - Epinoia (talk) 01:34, 27 February 2022 (UTC)

This page is about Christian mystics - Jesus was not a Christian - although Jesus is the center of Christianity, he did not call himself a Christian nor do any of the books of the Bible refer to him as a Christian - Christianity as a religion was not formalized until after his death - Epinoia (talk) 01:00, 9 March 2022 (UTC)

In the defense of the user 46.97.176.195, the term Christians which means "the follower of Christ" appears later in the landscape most likely popularized by Paul. It is true that Jesus did not found a new religion separate from Judaism, but he did found a new religious movement separate from those of the first century, and this can be seen during his ministry. Luis Trexxxx (talk) 05:41, 9 March 2022 (UTC)

Was Jesus a Christian?

[1] - "It may sound strange to say, but no, Jesus was not a Christian...A Christian is a person who has faith in Jesus Christ as his or her Lord and Savior (Romans 10:9–10). Jesus is the foundation for the Christian faith, but, based on the definition of the word, He could not Himself be called a Christian."

[2] - "Was Jesus a Christian? No...A Christian is a follower of Christ, Jesus himself is the Christ, the anointed one, the Messiah, so it wouldn’t make much sense to follow himself."

This is a list of Christian mystics. As Jesus was not a Christian, he is outside the scope of the list. - Epinoia (talk) 17:28, 23 March 2022 (UTC)