Talk:List of Formula One constructor records/Archive 2

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Archive 1

Archive 2

Alternative World Champions on different points scoring systems

This list shows the alternative World Champions on any of the different points scoring systems in Formula 1 since it’s inception in 1950. On many occasions, the title would have gone to another driver, had an other system been in place.

Season	World Champion	Alternative	System	Note
1950	Giuseppe Farina	Luigi Fagioli	2003	Fagioli would have taken the title with 38 points to Farina's 35.
1958	Mike Hawthorn	Stirling Moss	1991	Moss would have taken the title on equal points, with 4 against 1 win.
1964	John Surtees	Graham Hill	1950 1960 1991 2003	Only the best-6-from-10-races rule prevented Hill from taking the title under the 1961 system.
1965	Jim Clark	Graham Hill	2003
1974	Emerson Fittipaldi	Clay Regazzoni	1950
1976	James Hunt	Niki Lauda	1950 2003	Lauda would have only lost the title to Hunt on equal points with 5 against 6 victories under the 1960 system.
1981	Nelson Piquet	Carlos Reutemann	1950	Reutemann would have only lost the title to Piquet on equal points with 2 against 3 wins under the 1960 system.
1984	Niki Lauda	Alain Prost	1991	Prost would have taken the title on any points system had the 1984 Monaco Grand Prix not been shortened due to rain, due to which only half points were awarded
1986	Alain Prost	Nigel Mansell	1950
1988	Ayrton Senna	Alain Prost	1950 1960 1991 2003	Only the best-11-results rule prevented Prost from taking the title under the 1961 system.
1994	Michael Schumacher	Damon Hill	1960 1961 2003	Hill would have only lost the title to Schumacher on equal points with 6 wins to 8 under the 1950 system.
1999	Mika Häkkinen	Eddie Irvine	2003	Irvine would have only lost the title to Häkkinen on equal points with 4 wins to 5 under the 1960 system.

Other notable seasons

1979

On the 1950 points scoring system, this year’s World Championship would have been extremely close, with Jody Scheckter and Gilles Villeneuve scoring equal points, wins and second places. Scheckter would have taken the title with 4 fourth place finishes to Villeneuve’s nil.

2003

Michael Schumacher would have only won this year’s title on his 6 wins to Kimi Räikkönen’s single victory, with both drivers on equal points under the 1960 points scoring system.

1970

Jochen Rindt and Jacky Ickx would have been on equal points under the 2003 system, with Rindt winning with 5 against 3 victories.

The methodology used for the above table is very crude. Some of the alternative champions mentioned would not have been champion. For many seasons only a certain number of results counted, e.g. best six results from a season. The table above at first glance seems to take this into account but generally it does not. For any system which uses all results from a season (i.e. all modern systems) this is not an issue, but for point scoring systems from the fifties, sixties, seventies and eighties it has to be addressed. I have researched this area and I can assure you that Clay Regazzoni would not have won the 1974 season under the 1950 style points system unless all results for all races were counted. It is artifical to assume that all races would count because the 1950 system was never used in that way. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.195.109.225 (talk) 23:52, 8 June 2012 (UTC)

1970 shouldn't be on the list. The scores would have been different, but the winner, Jochen Rindt, would have been the same. Cows fly kites (Aecis) ^Rule^/^{Contributions} 09:41, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

Agreed, I have moved the 1970 example out of the table and into the "other notable seasons" section. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.195.109.225 (talk) 23:52, 8 June 2012 (UTC)

It's an interesting table, and thanks Lustigson for taking the trouble to post it here. But I still think it's too speculatory to go into the encyclopedia. Also be aware that that website produces very inaccurate numbers where shared drives are involved. For example, under "1961 rules", it awards Fangio 6 points for his shared second place in the 1956 Italian Grand Prix. Whereas under actual 1961 rules, he would have received 0 points for a shared drive. (But, of course, if he'd known he wasn't going to receive any points, he almost certainly wouldn't have swapped cars in the first place. So it's almost impossible to re-evaluate the 1950-57 championships under "no points for shared drives" rules.) DH85868993 14:05, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

I think you'll find that Jack Brabham won the title in 1960. John Surtees only had a single points finish that year, from four starts.Mr Larrington (talk) 11:47, 15 June 2010 (UTC) Edit: or should that read 1964 instead of 1960?

I think it's a typo and it should read 1964 instead of 1960. DH85868993 (talk) 15:31, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

The table was corrected by 94.195.109.225 (talk) on 8 June 2012. DH85868993 (talk) 15:35, 9 June 2012 (UTC)

Race records

One point and one question about the section #Race records:

I suggest renaming the section to Grand Prix records, since this involves Grand Prix' held in Grand Prix racing.
What was the Grand Prix with the least finishers? 1970 Spanish Grand Prix, with five? Has there been a race with even less drivers reaching the finish line?~

That's all, folks! Cows fly kites (Aecis) ^Rule^/^{Contributions} 09:39, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

The 1966 Monaco Grand Prix had 4 finishers. The 1996 Monaco Grand Prix had 7 drivers classifed. However, positions 5, 6 and 7 are shown as "Collision" indicating that they didn't actually "finish". Frentzen in 4th place is listed as "Withdrew", so I don't know whether that means he "finished" or not. DH85868993 09:47, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

He pulled into the pits on the final lap. Only 3 people took the chequeured flag. mattbuck 10:04, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

In view of the above, I suggest posting the 1996 Monaco Grand Prix with 3 finishers, with a footnote saying that seven drivers were classified, and that Monaco 1966 holds the record for classified drivers. Or we could split them: least finished drivers: Monaco 1996, 3; least classified drivers: Monaco 1966, 4. Or did Frentzen cross the finish line in the pit lane? If so, I think he qualifies as a finisher, meaning that Monaco had 4 finishers in 1966 and in 1996.

And while we're at it, what Grand Prix holds the record for the number of spectators? Would that be one of the Indy 500s of yore? Cows fly kites (Aecis) ^Rule^/^{Contributions} 10:35, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

Of modern GP, I think it was either barcelona this year or Indy in one of the last few years. mattbuck 11:24, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

How about adding "Most Wins per Grand Prix" to #Race records? For instance: "Most wins in the Monaco Grand Prix: Ayrton Senna, 6 (1987, 1989, 1990, 1991, 1992, 1993) Cows fly kites (Aecis) ^Rule^/^{Contributions} 12:17, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

Do you mean for each different Grand Prix? That would mean about 34 extra lines in the table, plus that information already exists in the individual <country> Grand Prix articles. Or if you mean most wins in any single Grand Prix, that's already there in the Driver Records section: Schumacher / France / 8. DH85868993 12:53, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

I think he means have a top 10 for that. Though it would probably be all SAchumacher, so i'm inclined to not bother. mattbuck 13:04, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

Actually, your first hunch was correct, DH. I was talking about a list of most wins for each Grand Prix. I'm willing to gather the information in my userspace first, so you can get an impression of the size of this particular table/list/subject. In view of the size of the list as it stands, 100+kb, a split might be in order anyway, e.g. List of Formula One driver records. Cows fly kites (Aecis) ^Rule^/^{Contributions} 13:10, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

Laps led

The section List of Formula One records#Race leaders contains three lists at the moment: Entire race, For at least one lap and Youngest. Two related records are missing atm: number of laps led and the distance led (both held by Michael Schumacher iirc). The latter will put the former in perspective: leading one lap in Pescara equals about eight laps in Monaco. Even on the current calendar, Spa is twice as long as Monaco. Is this information available anywhere? And on the subject of circuit length, I know that Pescara is the longest circuit ever to host an F1 GP (26km, 16 miles), but what is the shortest circuit ever? Monaco? Cows fly kites (Aecis) ^Rule^/^{Contributions} 13:29, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

Percentage wins

Shouldn't there be a minimum race requirement for this? I was thinking something along the lines of ten races; three of the drivers in the top ten haven't reached this milestone, two of whom never will. BeL1EveR 20:29, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

I take your point, but I think once a threshold is introduced, it just opens the door to endless discussions about what the threshold should be (e.g. 5, 10, 20, etc). I think a better approach is to simply present the raw information, and let people filter it themselves. -- DH85868993 02:43, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

I accept the rationale and so will leave it be, although I can't help feeling undue weight is being given to the anomaly of the Indy 500 being part of the world championship, even in cases where drivers didn't compete in the championship. Just a thought. I do accept the reasoning for leaving it be though as it is factually accurate. BeL1EveR 22:45, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

Possible errors

I have just created the list of podium finishes by percentage, using the structure of List of Formula One records#Percentage Wins. In doing so, I came across what seem to be a few errors in the numbers. I don't know the thought behind them, so I'm bringing it up here. Perhaps I'm seeing it incorrectly. "Percentage Wins" gives Fangio 51 entries, saying in footnote 2 "Fangio entered 51 separate races, but shared with additional drivers in some of these." Fangio had 51 starts, but both the List of Formula One drivers and the article Juan Manuel Fangio give him 52 entries. This would mean 46.15% victories. A similar problem for Alberto Ascari. The table gives him 36 entries, footnote 3 says 32, and the List of Formula One drivers and the article Alberto Ascari say 33. The table gives Senna 161 entries, but the the List of Formula One drivers and the article Ayrton Senna say 162. A ecis^Brievenbus 22:46, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

Fixed. Good pickup. Thanks. DH85868993 03:06, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

Youngest Winners

The section on Youngest Winners only seems to include first victories. For instance, Hamilton's victory in Canada is in fourth place, but his win in the US, which would be on sixth place, is not included. Should Hamilton's US victory be included, or should the section be renamed? A ecis^Brievenbus 10:26, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

The term "Youngest Winners" seems to imply that it is ranking drivers by the age they were when achieving their win, rather than ranking races by the age of the winning driver. So I'd say it's correct as it is. - MTC 10:41, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

If it only lists drivers by the age they joined the ranks of race winners, it basically lists them by first victory. Which is fine by me, but in that case the section should be renamed to make that clear. If it lists drivers by the age of winning a Grand Prix, it should include Hamilton's second victory, as well as several others, like Bruce McLaren's victory in Argentina 1960. A ecis^Brievenbus 10:49, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

I've added a note to each of the "youngest" tables explaining that only the first win/pole/points etc for each driver is listed. DH85868993 12:22, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

F1 Rejects records

F1 Rejects has some less obvious F1 records, such as most failures to pre-qualify, lowest points average per race etc. Would these be worthy of inclusion in the article?--Diniz (talk) 19:00, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

Lowest points average? There are hundreds of people who never scored a point... I assume this is of people who did actually score? I don't think that record is necessarily useful, but others may be. mattbuck 20:45, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

Nick Heidfeld, just in case

Nick Heidfeld is currently in fifth place of List of Formula One records#Most Races without a Win. Since he's still active, there is a possibility he will one day win a race. If he does, he will move to first place of List of Formula One records#Most Races before First Win. This would move the #11 in "Most Races without a Win" into the top 10. This is Chris Amon, with 108 entries (97 starts). Just in case. A ecis^Brievenbus 22:22, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

Thanks. I've included this information in the article (commented out, just below the table), in case it's needed. This is one of the few tables where people can "drop out" of the table. DH85868993 01:54, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

F1 fatalities

Without intending to be too morbid, is their a list of F1 fatalities anywhere on Wikipedia? Would this be a suitable additional table to be included here? Lynbarn 08:45, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Forget the above, I've since found List of Formula One fatal accidents. Regards, Lynbarn 08:56, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

It's a morbid subject and a morbid thought, but in the Race Records section, should we include the race with the most fatalities? Four races would hold that record: 1953 Indianapolis 500, 1955 Indianapolis 500, 1960 Belgian Grand Prix and 1994 San Marino Grand Prix, all with two fatalities. A ecis^Brievenbus 09:52, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

I wouldn't be in favour of that, because:

as you point out, it's pretty morbid
people can easily work it out for themselves by looking at List of Formula One fatal accidents, as opposed to most (all?) of the other records documented on the page, which would require looking at hundreds of articles to work them out for yourself.

DH85868993 10:05, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Tyre records

I suggest splitting the table of the Tyres records. Examples of new tables would be Most Seasons, Most Starts, Most Wins, Most WDC, Most WCC, etcetera. I think the table as it stands would also need fixing. For Michelin, for instance, it says "Seasons: 1977 – 2006". Michelin was in F1 from 1977 to 1984 and from 2001 to 2006. As it stands, the table implies that Michelin were in F1 for 20 continuous seasons. A ecis^Brievenbus 13:26, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Alternative suggestion: How about just making the table sortable by those columns? By all means fix up the non-contiguous seasons issue, though. DH85868993 13:35, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Longest careers?

Would a table of the drivers having the longest F1 Careers, or maximum no. of championships competed for be appropriate? Lynbarn 15:12, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

I guess it would. Graham Hill would no doubt be the one with the most championships competed in -- 17 IIRC. Lustigson 15:41, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

I wouldn't oppose the inclusion of such a table. Issues to consider:

Should you count from first entry to last entry or first start to last start? (it might not affect the results anyway, I'm not sure)
As has been done for several of the other tables, you'd probably need to mention that many of the drivers who competed in the early years of the Championship actually started their "Grand Prix" careers well before the championship started. In some cases before World War II. So some drivers could actually have very long "Grand Prix" careers, but only very short "Championship" careers, whilst others might have long careers in terms of elapsed time, but with a big gap in the middle.

DH85868993 02:14, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

Another problem/consideration: what do you do with the Indy 500? Sam Hanks for instance took part in 8 GPs in his career. All 8 GPs were the Indy 500, so with 8 F1 seasons he might be on the list (not very likely, since many of the current F1 drivers are in F1 longer). I think the only objective criterion for length of career is the number of entries, which is already included. Cows fly kites (Aecis) ^Rule^/^{Contributions} 11:57, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

When I raised this originally, I was thinking more of chronological longevity, rather than just number of races. Regards, Lynbarn 13:01, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

That would raise another problem. Take Jan Lammers for instance. He raced in 1979, 1980, 1981, 1982 and 1992. This would mean that his Formula 1 career spanned 13 years, but only five seasons. Cows fly kites (Aecis) ^Rule^/^{Contributions} 13:09, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

Suggesting Split

I suggest that we split the drivers' records into a new page, List of Formula One Drivers' Records - the current article is ridiculously long IMO and makes it hard to find things properly. Either leave constructors' & tyres records here or move them to another page too. mattbuck 15:57, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

I agree, this would be a sensible split. Regards Lynbarn 16:09, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

I agree also, the page is far too long. Schumi555 18:45, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

I'm undecided. Currently the article is about 109 kb in size, of which the non-driver records account for about 30 kb. So if we split it, the driver records article will still be about 79 kb in size, which isn't really that much of an improvement. In exchange for the extra overhead associated with having two articles, plus losing the benefit(?) of having "all the information in one place". Note my assumption/belief that the article probably already contains most of the records that it makes sense to document, so I think it probably won't ever get much bigger than it currently is (maybe an extra 10-15%?). On the other hand, if we don't split it, we need to get rid of the duplicate section titles - currently if you edit the "Most pole positions in a season" table for constructors, when you press Save it takes you back to the "Most pole positions in a season" table for drivers, which is really annoying! Plus the duplicate titles means some of the links in the TOC don't work. DH85868993 01:47, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

I agree. If the length improvement wasn't a deciding factor then DH8568993's last two points certainly were. BeL1EveR 21:49, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

Note that the TOC links have now been fixed. DH85868993 01:46, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

Youngest/oldest to enter

There is only one entry in each of these tables and entering a race is not as significant as starting, both of these categories are tabled in more detail. - should the two entry records be merged intio the "others" table? regards, Lynbarn 16:09, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

Probably. Another approach would be to populate the "Youngest/Oldest to enter" tables fully, but as you point out, entering probably isn't as important/interesting as starting (perhaps reflected by the fact that those tables have been around for a long time, but nobody (including me) has been sufficiently enthused to populate them fully). One thing to note is that having the "entered" and "started" tables adjacent to each other highlights the distinction between them; if we move "Youngest/Oldest to enter" information down to the "others" table, people might mistakenly think it's a duplicate of the information in the "Youngest/Oldest to start" tables above, so it would probably a good idea to make it really obvious in the description, e.g. "Youngest/Oldest driver to enter (as opposed to start) a World Championship race". DH85868993 01:08, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

I preferred the old format. Also note that because some of the section headings are repeated, the corresponding links don't work, e.g. the link to Constructors/Pole positions/Most in one season actually takes you to the "Most pole positions in a season" table for drivers. DH85868993 13:36, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

The default TOC was just far too big - you had to scroll down a page just to get to the end of the contents! Thanks for pointing out the duplicate headings issues - I've now fixed that. Tompw (talk) (review) 14:35, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

Oldest debut

Who was the oldest driver to make his debut in Formula One? Was it Louis Chiron in the 1950 British Grand Prix (50, approaching his 51st birthday)? A ecis^Brievenbus 00:29, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

Philippe Étancelin was 53 years, 5 months and 15 days old when he made his World Championship debut at the 1950 British Grand Prix. But of course that was just his World Championship debut; his first Formula One race had been 3 years earlier, in April 1947, and he'd been racing in Grand Prix races since 1926! DH85868993 13:22, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

But since this list only covers the F1 World Championship, should we include Étancelin? A ecis^Brievenbus 16:33, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

Personally I wouldn't bother, but you can if you like. If you do, I suggest adding a note similar to what I have written above. Also note that I'm only 95% certain that Étancelin is the oldest driver to make his WDC debut - I identified him by examining the "Oldest driver to start" list and working out how old each of those drivers would have been on their debut. DH85868993 02:40, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

Thackwell and the youngest starter (Canadian GP)

Races entered ans started
A driver is considered to have started a race if they line-up on the grid for the start of a race – if a race is stopped and re-started, only the final start of the race is counted.

And Mike Thackwell is said (here and nearly everywhere) as the youngest starter at the 1980 Canadian Grand Prix. But, Thackwell didn't take part to the second start. So, he should not be considered to have started the race. Woodcote 12:45, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

The issue is currently under discussion here. -- DH85868993 14:03, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

If we count Thackwell started 1980 Canadian Grand Prix, we should count Barrichello started 1998 Belgian Grand Prix... Woodcote (talk) 20:39, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

Team Podium Finishes

what's the difference between the two columns? Madraykin86 15:05, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

Don't worry, think I've got it now. Madraykin86 15:12, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

McLaren Mercedes

Do we still include McLaren constructor's points for the 2007 season in their records, even though they have been excluded from this year's championship? Similar to when Michael Schumacher was excluded in 1997. Schumi555 10:08, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

Well, I'd have to say that they still won those grand prix, still took those pole positions and fastest laps. Points.... that's debatable, and I'd like to know what the precedent is. Generally I'd have to say yes though, records should stay. mattbuck 10:37, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

Schumacher's point's total on this page includes his points from the 1997 season so I'd say the precedent is already set and McLaren's points from 2007 should be counted. Kelpin 10:53, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

I've added the points from McLarens finishes in Belgium Madraykin86 14:26, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

Ferrari Constructors Championship 2007

I've not added this for now. Should it wait until it's confirmed that McLaren won't appeal? Madraykin86 14:27, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

Poles in 1st season

Hamilton just had his 6st pole of the season in Shanghai. As far as I know that's the best job somebody did in his debut season. Is there somewhere a record about this or could somebody some research on it? Thanks Massimo2007 7:15 (UTC), 06 October 2007

Re. Most retirements (percent) record

The record currently states that the 1984 United States Grand Prix East holds the record with 79.1%. One race which did have a higher percent was the 1996 Monaco Grand Prix with only 3 cars crossing the finish line, therefore having 19/22 cars that DNF. This includes Andrea Montermini who qualified but DNS. There may be a higher percentage from another race so I will leave the page as it currently is for the time being. Regards, Schumi555 (talk) 11:38, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

Total Points

Does anyone have a good source for these? All the ones I've seen give different numbers! Madraykin86 (talk) 19:19, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

The values in the Total Points table match the values at FORIX (subscription site), except for McLaren where FORIX's value is 15 points higher than Wikipedia's, because FORIX (apparently) counts the 15 points from the 2007 Hungarian Grand Prix, which Wikipedia doesn't, per this discussion. DH85868993 (talk) 22:08, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

I didn't think to check FORIX, d'oh. Thanks. Madraykin86 (talk) 10:09, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

On the subject of the Total Points table, it currently lists the total number of Drivers' Championship points scored by each constructor. It should probably list the total number of Constructors' Championship points they scored as well (or maybe instead?). DH85868993 (talk) 03:00, 27 February 2009 (UTC)

I've added WCC points. DH85868993 (talk) 01:21, 11 March 2009 (UTC)

Longest race in history, both in terms of time and distance?

Anyone think they could add those? Come to think of it, they could well be the same race.. SirJibby (talk) 19:28, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

The 1951 Indianapolis 500 was 3h 57m. Any advance? Schumi555 (talk) 11:38, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

And 3h 38m for the 1956 German Grand Prix, probably longest in terms of time disregarding the Indy 500s. There's the 2 hour rule now of course. Schumi555 (talk) 11:45, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

A quick flick through the 1983 edition of the Marlboro Grand Prix Guide identifies the 1951 French Grand Prix as the longest WDC round in terms of distance: 77 laps x 7.816 km (4.856 mi) = 601.832 km (373.961 mi). DH85868993 (talk) 11:37, 28 November 2008 (UTC)

The 1954 German Grand Prix was 3h 45m. Aptery gial 05:26, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

Smallest time between first and last unlapped places

What about the above for 'Other'. Chubbennaitor 20:54, 30 March 2009 (UTC)

I'm not sure it's especially noteworthy/meaningful, especially in situations like last Sunday's race where the field was artificially compressed by the safety car. DH85868993 (talk) 21:06, 30 March 2009 (UTC)

Ferrari WDC points

The table states that ferrari have scored 4928.27 WDC points. How did they get the 0.27? -mattbuck (Talk) 15:23, 10 May 2009 (UTC)

In the 1954 British Grand Prix, 7 drivers scored equal-fastest lap (they only timed it to the nearest whole second!). Back in those days, there was a WDC point awarded for fastest lap, so each driver scored 1/7th of a point. Two of them were driving Ferraris --> Ferrari "scored" 2/7th of a WDC point. But, you might say, 2/7th = 0.285714(etc), so why is it ".27", not ".29" (or ".28")? The short answer is that that value is sourced from FORIX, which says ".27" (it's a subscription site, so unfortunately I can't just provide a link to the relevant page). The longer answer is that I suspect the value is derived as follows: In addition to the aforementioned 1954 British Grand Prix, in the 1955 Argentine Grand Prix, the third-placed Ferrari was shared by Farina, Trintignant and Maglioli. Back then, 3rd place was worth 4 points, so each driver was awarded one and one third points. My guess is that FORIX's database limits WDC point scores to 2 decimal places, so the "1/7ths of a point" from the 1954 British GP are rounded to "0.14 points" and "one and one third points" from the 1955 Argentine GP are rounded to "1.33 points", so Ferrari's WDC points total includes 0.14 + 0.14 + 1.33 + 1.33 + 1.33 = (4).27. DH85868993 (talk) 03:09, 11 May 2009 (UTC)

Largest Winning Margin

I see that the largest winning margin is listed as 2 laps. Should we not mention Jim Clark winning by 4:54.0 at Spa in 1963? This is far more than 2 laps worth of time for a modern circuit.

I agree, but then there are likely to be other races whereby a driver wins by 4+ minutes but is less than a lap ahead on the old circuits. It is hard to standardise all winning margins, as being simply classed as '2 laps behind' does not show if the second placed driver was lapped for a second time with 1 lap to go, or was nearly 3 laps behind. Maybe a record for "Largest winning margin by number of laps" and "Largest winning margin by time"? Schumi555 20:27, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

Team records

Do any of the Constructor's records change significantly when measured by Team rather than Constructor? --Falcadore (talk) 06:56, 15 September 2011 (UTC)

In some cases. Looking at the infoboxes in Tyrrell Racing and Team Lotus, Tyrell-the-team have 33 more races, 10 more wins, 5 more poles and 7 more fastest laps than Tyrrell-the-constructor. Lotus-the-constructor have 2 more races, 6 more wins, 5 more poles and 5 more fastest laps than Team Lotus. Four of Cooper's wins were achieved by non-works cars and none of Matra's 9 wins were scored by Matra Sports (these last two would affect the "Percentage wins" table only). Williams would pick up an extra 11 entries/8 starts (for 1977). Apart from that, off the top of my head I think Ferrari had 1 non-works win (Baghetti in 61 FRA) and McLaren had 1 non-works fastest lap (Surtees 70 SAF). And the number of entries/starts for Brabham(?) and Ferrari(?) might change by a couple? But I think that's about it. (The numbers for March would also change, but they don't currently appear in any of the tables). DH85868993 (talk) 08:28, 15 September 2011 (UTC)

Is it enough to annotate accordingly? --Falcadore (talk) 09:58, 15 September 2011 (UTC)

Hmm. I'm not sure. What sort of annotation were you thinking of? A general comment at the top of the Constructor records section highlighting the difference between constructor achievements and team achievements? Or individual footnotes on the affected tables? (or something else?) I'm not sure about having individual footnotes - the tables are fairly clearly identified as constructor records, and introducing references to teams might confuse the casual reader (or maybe not - I understand the distinction, so it wouldn't confuse me, but I'm not sure what a non-expert would think). DH85868993 (talk) 03:03, 16 September 2011 (UTC)

Points

Although the changing of point scoring systems is mentioned in the Section Points, the information in the table is still misleading. Since there are considerably more points awarded in the current system, the calculation of total points over F1 history is utterly meaningless. A team having one single mediocre year after 2009, could be ahead of a team which competed for several championships before 2010. A proper normalization of the systems is ambiguous and therefore it would be best to remove the Section Points entirely. Marc w823 (talk) 00:54, 28 September 2011 (UTC)

And there were less points available in 1950 compared to 1990, not to mention the seasons now have three times as many races. The totalling of points across multiple seasons has ALWAYS been misleading. It is inherent in attempting the exercise at all. The points change in 2010 does not substantially change what was already an intensely unfair comparison where a team like Minardi has scored more points than the original constructor's champion Vanwall. Nor is this a unique challenge to Formula One with many sports now competing many more times than in years past giving a WP:Recentism slant to all statistics.

However it is a statistic in common use, and continually update by many sources. So while the statistic continues to be used, it remains valid subject for wikipedia because its regular use makes it notable. It may be that what is recquired is either a brief note, or a link to the separate article the describes Formula One points systems.

It should be pointed out that it is not wikipedia's role to attempt to be fair. That would, depending on wording, either be a violation of neutral point of view or original research policies, or both. --Falcadore (talk) 01:29, 28 September 2011 (UTC)

Lotus

I understand that people do not consider 2010-2012 Lotuses to be the same as the original Lotus team, but shouldn't that be indicated somewhere on the page? In the last two seasons, Caterham ran as Lotus, and now it's Renault that is using the Lotus name. 83.45.52.222 (talk) 10:37, 15 April 2012 (UTC)

Slowest race

Does the Canadian GP remain so if you ignore the two hours of non-racing? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.209.107.237 (talk) 22:08, 10 September 2011 (UTC)

No. Even if you assume the race was stopped for only exactly 2 hours (and from memory, I think it was longer), that would give a racing time of 2:04:39.537, which equates to an average speed of 146.9 km/h. Compare this to the 1950 Monaco Grand Prix, which was won at an average speed of 98.6km/h. To be honest, I think the fact that stoppage time is now included as part of the total race time makes this particular record fairly meaningless. When this record was first added, I considered adding an extra row for "slowest race excluding stoppages" but that would probably count as original research. DH85868993 (talk) 00:55, 11 September 2011 (UTC)

Imho including red flag periods into race time for average speed calculations doesn't make any sense at all. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.153.90.242 (talk) 20:24, 14 August 2012 (UTC)

I agree that this is a meaningless record now; I'd remove it if we can't replace it by the "lowest average speed of the actual racing". But maybe there is a source that calculated those speeds? BTW, the Canada race must have been stopped for more than 2 hours, otherwise it would have broken the two-hour time limit on actual racing time. --Roentgenium111 (talk) 13:43, 24 September 2012 (UTC)

Move?

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: no consensus. (non-admin closure) Steel1943 (talk) 05:06, 18 November 2013 (UTC)

List of Formula One records → List of Formula One constructor records – I moved List of Formula One records to List of Formula One constructor records because it should be in accordance with List of Formula One driver records. This was just moved back without discussion or reason. --Relisted. Steel1943 (talk) 07:41, 4 November 2013 (UTC) Boot Blues (talk) 07:33, 19 October 2013 (UTC)

There seems to be a dispute here. (The last move was requested as uncontroversial "Reversion of undiscussed move. Current name is unsuitable, as the article contains more than just constructor records DH85868993 (talk) 23:48, 18 October 2013 (UTC)"). And, should the name be List of Formula One constructor records (spelling)? Anthony Appleyard (talk) 07:52, 19 October 2013 (UTC)

Yes, it should of course be spelled constructor. Boot Blues (talk) 09:51, 19 October 2013 (UTC)

The only thing in the page which is not really records of constructors is a relatively short list of race records, which could very well be split out to its own article. Boot Blues (talk) 09:55, 19 October 2013 (UTC)

Or, we could leave the article name and contents the same as they've been for the past 6 years. This article originally contained Formula One driver records, constructor records, tyre records and race records. In October 2007, the driver records were split out into a separate article per WP:SIZE. In November 2007, the tyre records were moved to Formula One tyres. Since then, this article has served as the top-level/container article for Formula One records, with links to the records which are contained in other articles. I don't see how splitting this article into two articles - List of Formula One constructor records and (presumably) List of Formula One race records - is an improvement over the current arrangement. DH85868993 (talk) 14:10, 19 October 2013 (UTC)

Oppose per my comments above. DH85868993 (talk) 03:23, 7 November 2013 (UTC)
Oppose per DH85868993. This works just fine as a parent article. --BDD (talk) 19:47, 13 November 2013 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Consecutive points

Should (or can) I add a consecutive points record for the most consecutive races in the points? It could look something like this:

	Constructor	Points finishes	Season(s)	Races
1	HRT	8	2011 – 2012	2011 Italian Grand Prix – 2012 Australian Grand Prix

Except obviously the correct F1 teams and races would be used. SAS1998―Talk 21:07, 5 October 2014 (UTC)

Here is what I have so far:

	Constructor	Points finishes	Season(s)	Races
1	Ferrari	81	2010 – 2014	2010 German Grand Prix – 2014 Singapore Grand Prix
2	McLaren	64	2010 – 2013	2010 Bahrain Grand Prix – 2013 Monaco Grand Prix
3	Ferrari	55	1999 – 2003	1999 Malaysian Grand Prix – 2003 Malaysian Grand Prix
4	Ferrari	46	2006 – 2008	2006 San Marino Grand Prix – 2008 Italian Grand Prix
5	Lotus	38	2012 – 2013	2012 Australian Grand Prix – 2013 United States Grand Prix
7	BMW Sauber	34	2007 – 2008	2007 Australian Grand Prix – 2008 Chinese Grand Prix

SAS1998―Talk 22:58, 5 October 2014 (UTC)

Sas1998, it seems appropriate for the article, given that we could at least fill it up with the top ten that the other lists comprise of, and of course being mindful of historical points systems, such as the current top 10, along with top 8, top 6, that one season where only a certain amount of best results were used to determine the end of season totals (if a team would be subject to such an omission). Having said all this, a note would probably be helpful if this list were included. Twirlypen (talk) 03:02, 12 November 2014 (UTC)

I don't think we need to worry about dropped points - the team still scored those points in consecutive races - imo the fact that some of those points weren't counted in their end-of-season total is incidental. DH85868993 (talk) 05:47, 22 November 2014 (UTC)

Is this a record that is refered to at all? Records should be notable and certainly not something you've calculated yourself. --Falcadore (talk) 06:50, 22 November 2014 (UTC)

From memory, when Ferrari failed to score points in the 2014 Japanese Grand Prix, the TV commentators mentioned that it brought Ferrari's 81-race points-scoring streak to an end. But I'm not aware of it being mentioned anywhere else. DH85868993 (talk) 07:22, 22 November 2014 (UTC)

Error in Ferrari most consecutive races found?

I was surprised to see Ferrari having competed in as many 291 consecutive GPs between Belgium 1956 and San Marino 1982. I believe this is an error —‚ but stand to be corrected — since Ferrari did not take part in the 1976 Austrian Grand Prix, for instance, and neither did they in the 1973 Dutch and German races. Lustigson (talk) 11:14, 3 November 2016 (UTC)

Most wins records

For the past 20-odd seasons, Ferrari have held the record for most Grand Prix wins. Prior to that, McLaren held that honor for a season-and-a-half. There were also periods in which Alfa Romeo and Lotus held the most wins record. Would it be interesting to have a table with that information? Lustigson (talk) 15:37, 28 March 2017 (UTC)

Meta-records? Seems somewhat specious to me. -mattbuck (Talk) 17:36, 28 March 2017 (UTC)

This information is already presented at List_of_Formula_One_Grand_Prix_winners_(constructors)#Record_progression. DH85868993 (talk) 20:16, 28 March 2017 (UTC)

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Split out constructor records?

What do people think of the idea of splitting out the "Constructor records" section into a separate article called List of Formula One constructor records? It seems somewhat inconsistent to me that the driver, engine, tyre and race records are split out into separate articles but the constructor records are not. And before anyone else mentions it, I'm well aware that back in 2013 I opposed this article being moved to List of Formula One constructor records, but that was because, at that time, the article contained more than just constructor records; it also contained race records (which have since been split out into a separate article). DH85868993 (talk) 02:12, 5 September 2018 (UTC)

Support What will we make this page into then? A dab page or an article full of "See also" and "main article" sections? ^{Babymissfortune} 02:21, 5 September 2018 (UTC)

My initial thought would be to leave the rest of the article as is (i.e. full of "See also" and "main article" sections), but I'm not averse to changing it to a dab page if others prefer that. DH85868993 (talk) 02:32, 5 September 2018 (UTC)

More track records

How about having more records about pole positions and fastest laps? I'm thinking about fastest/slowest laps regarding both time, length and average speed. Do you believe that those facts are relevant? Or did I miss them in this huge page? --NaBUru38 (talk) 20:39, 24 August 2009 (UTC)

Fastest Lap records by constructor should be a good record to add Michalis2504 (talk) 08:51, 25 March 2019 (UTC)

Mercedes Pole Positions 94 or 102

In Formula 1 website it says that Mercedes has 94 Pole Positions but in Wikipedia Mercedes has 102 which is the correct one we should follow. Any thoughts? If FIA has it as 94 then should we follow it. Also I think that FIA probably ignored the years of 1954-1955. I already calculated that since 2010 Mercedes took 94 pole positions. Michalis2504 (talk) 08:43, 25 March 2019 (UTC)

StatsF1 and FORIX (subscription site) both agree with Wikipedia's total of 102 pole positions. It's also worth noting that (as far as I'm aware) www.formula1.com is not the FIA's website; it's Formula One Group's website. DH85868993 (talk) 09:47, 25 March 2019 (UTC)

Requested move 8 October 2020

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Consensus to move. (closed by non-admin page mover) SITH (talk) 10:36, 15 October 2020 (UTC)

List of Formula One records → List of Formula One constructor records – Firstly, I know this was discussed in November 2013 with a no consensus result. But the article has changed significantly since then. In November 2013 the article contained a series of constuctor records and a series of race records ([1]) and the move was opposed on the grounds that the page was more than just constructor records. But this is no longer the case, the page now only contains constructor records (with race records moved into its own page.

Therefore, I believe that WP:PRIMARYTOPIC applies to the page title "List of Formula One records" and I see little to no evidence that constructor records are a primary topic over driver records.

I therefore propose that we move the constructor records to "List of Formula One constructor records" and either turn "List of Formula One records" either into a disambiguation page or into a page that lists some of the main records for drivers, constructors, engines, tyres and races with {{main}} tags to each of the main pages that list some of the more obscure ones/less notable ones.
SSSB (talk) 09:06, 8 October 2020 (UTC)

Support, per my similar suggestion in 2018. I don't mind whether List of Formula One records becomes a disambiguation page or a "shell" which links to the other "List of Formula One xxx records" pages. DH85868993 (talk) 10:16, 8 October 2020 (UTC)
Support this article is only about constructor records, driver records are located elsewhere. Probably best to turn List of Formula One records into a DAB, as no way to tell which article people would be looking for. Joseph2302 (talk) 10:29, 13 October 2020 (UTC)
Support, List of Formula One records should be used as disambiguation. Corvus tristis (talk) 16:48, 13 October 2020 (UTC)
Support It's about time. ^{Babymissfortune} 16:55, 13 October 2020 (UTC)
Support Per nom. Quite sensible. JohnMcButts (talk) 01:23, 14 October 2020 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Done I've turned List of Formula One records into a disambiguation page as suggested. cherkash (talk) 02:37, 16 October 2020 (UTC)

Drivers' titles

Why isn't on this page the list of the drivers' titles won by constructors? there is no such information on any other page either — Preceding unsigned comment added by 151.77.63.136 (talk) 16:10, 21 February 2022 (UTC)

added. SSSB (talk) 16:36, 21 February 2022 (UTC)

This list was at List of Formula One World Drivers' Champions#By chassis constructor SSSB (talk) 16:43, 21 February 2022 (UTC)

"1–2 finish" listed at Redirects for discussion

An editor has identified a potential problem with the redirect 1–2 finish and has thus listed it for discussion. This discussion will occur at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2022 March 29#1–2 finish until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion. SSSB (talk) 11:34, 29 March 2022 (UTC)

2022 São Paulo Grand Prix

Do we consider the 2022 São Paulo Grand Prix to be a:

"1-2 qualifying result" for Mercedes? I would say no (because they didn't finish 1st and 2nd in qualifying), but the source we use for that table says yes, although their table is titled "Pole positions By one-two (1st and 2nd on the starting grid)", not "1-2 qualifying result".
"Front-row lockout" for Mercedes? I would say yes, because the Mercedes started 1st and 2nd on the grid (for the Grand Prix).

Thoughts? DH85868993 (talk) 13:19, 14 November 2022 (UTC)

Validity of some stats on this page

Hello, I recently added the following statistics on this page:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:MobileDiff/1120220772

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:MobileDiff/1120221818

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:MobileDiff/1120236911

It has been indicated to me that they are not "recognized records", that they are "non-notable achievements".

For coherence, I showed how the "List of Formula One driver records" page also shows those kinds of records when it comes to drivers (as you can see in the links included in the comments to my first 2 edits linked above). Therefore, for mere logic, they should be accepted also in the Constructors' Records page. Or, in alternative, they should be deleted also from the Drivers' Records page.

To this last objection it has been responded to me that "these articles don’t have to be identical. Wikipedia is not a stats site, nor a mirror of one." Then why being identical is a mistake and not an opportunity to improve the content of this encyclopedia? Why is it a stats site but only for some pages (the Drivers' Record page in this example) and not for others (this Constructors' Records page)?

What is your opinion on this topic?

Thank you in advance. Giuliomil Giuliomil (talk) 11:16, 6 November 2022 (UTC)

Actually, what you are telling is not true. The drivers’ records article does not include statistics like “fastest laps in most consecutive seasons”. These things are just not notable. The drivers’ records article contains far too many unimportant achievements too.T v x1 13:01, 6 November 2022 (UTC)

But there is a record for most consecutive seasons with a win: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Formula_One_constructor_records#Most_consecutive_seasons_with_a_win Or with a pole: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Formula_One_constructor_records#Most_consecutive_seasons_with_a_pole_position Giuliomil (talk) 12:40, 14 November 2022 (UTC)

That doesn’t mean we must have these for constructors too. Notability is key here. I have not seen or heard these being mentioned in mainstream coverage. Moreover, consecutive streaks are much more difficult to achieve for a lone individual than for a team entering two cars each race.T v x1 23:12, 14 November 2022 (UTC)

My comments to your remarks:

"Notability is key here. I have not seen or heard these being mentioned in mainstream coverage." --> Here we enter the realm of subjectivity. 1) Who ensures the community that if you did not here it being mentioned in mainstream coverage, then it really means that it was actually never mentioned in mainstream coverage? 2) Assuming that it was really never mentioned in mainstream media ever (which according to above description is quite hard to prove): why should it not deserve notability, especially if for the drivers it does? Which leads to my remark on your next quote:

"Moreover, consecutive streaks are much more difficult to achieve for a lone individual than for a team entering two cars each race." --> That is the reason the records are usually split between drivers and constructors records. Take the constructor records: within this category, you are comparing different constructors with each other. So by listing the record you are showing which constructor was better. It is a relative comparison (constructors are compared against other constructors), as it should rightly be. What you are mentioning is an absolute comparison (putting the numbers of the record of the drivers together with those of the constructors), which in fact is not something being put in place here. Giuliomil (talk) 17:38, 15 November 2022 (UTC)

You adding these stats because you consider them “interesting” is subjective to begin with. Whether something “deserves” notability is of no importance whatsoever. We do not decide what deserves notability and what not. We report what is notable according to reliable sources. And a certain stat being a notable record for drivers doesn’t make it automatically so for constructors too. That is just not how it works.

The purpose of this article is to list records properly recognized by the sport’s governing body, not list every conceivable statistic. If you want to make a comparison of constructors achievements in these obscure achievements, go to a dedicated stats site like StatsF1. This is outside of Wikipedia’s scope, so stop filling up articles with these unimportant stats. T v x1 18:21, 15 November 2022 (UTC)

[Missing data] Mercedes Benz Total races

There is no Mercedes Benz entry for List of Formula One constructor records#Total races started (entries and starts)

List of Formula One constructor records#Most consecutive races started and Mercedes-Benz in Formula One can e used to get the figures Tyagi.kunal (talk) 12:20, 27 November 2023 (UTC)

@Tyagi.kunal: Only the top 10 are listed for each table. Mercedes have only entered/started 293 races, so they aren't in the top 10 constructors in terms of number of races entered/started. DH85868993 (talk) 12:38, 27 November 2023 (UTC)

Incongruences with amount of races/wins for some teams

If Lotus' wins and races entered from their return in the 2010's doesn't count towards team Lotus' counts that ceased to be in 1994, then Mercedes Wins and races entered in the 50's shouldn't count towards the current team. The same is true for Renault. Investigatetower7 (talk) 21:32, 13 January 2024 (UTC)

@Investigatetower7: The current consensus of the Formula One WikiProject is that:

Mercedes (1954-1955) and Mercedes (2010-present) are the same constructor
Renault (1977-1985), Renault (2002-2009) and Renault (2016-2020) are the same constructor, but that
Lotus (1958-1994), Lotus (2010-2011) and Lotus (2012-2015) are separate constructors.

There have been various discussions over the years to arrive at the current position, including [2], [3], [4], [5] and [6]. DH85868993 (talk) 23:33, 13 January 2024 (UTC)