Talk:List of Lost episodes/Archive 2
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Redundancy / Merge
I am astounded by the level of effort and will that is being expended to try and defy simple consistency.
The whole point of this page (and other lists like it) is that so there is a short overview of each episode and to provide a encyclopedic and informative listing of episodes.
By boiling down Episodes of Lost (season 1) and Episodes of Lost (season 2) per consensus into Talk:Episodes of Lost (season 1)/Drafts and Talk:Episodes of Lost (season 2)/Drafts, you are just boiling down each episodes to a few paragraphs and provide listing of episodes-- the exact same thing this article is doing without conforming to guidelines, naming conventions, and the design/consistency of most TV shows' episode listings on Wikipedia. Yes, we like episode guides like Episodes of Lost (season 1) and Episodes of Lost (season 2) to fill us in if we missed an episode, but I would submit that for the vast majority of Wikipedians that a list like this page is more **encyclopedic** and informative than (what seems to me, and I'm sure many people would agree) a long, linear article like Episodes of Lost (season x) designed to feed you the linear story of Lost. Here's an experiment: show Episodes of Lost (season x) and this List of Lost episodes page to someone who hasn't seen the series, the audience for a general-purpose encyclopedia-- and see which one they find more concise, clear, and consistent. I think our passion for Lost is blinding our judgement here-- we just like Lost too much just for an episode listing that is concise and easily accessible to everyone-- otherwise it just feels so empty!
P.S. I'm not that concerned about the issue of individual articles, but what's worrying to me is that you're purging huge amounts of content from Episodes of Lost (season 1) and Episodes of Lost (season 2) with the new drafts at Talk:Episodes of Lost (season 1)/Drafts and Talk:Episodes of Lost (season 2)/Drafts-- and I think it's better to create additional articles on each article (although yes, there would be [gasp] 50 more articles to Wikipedia's 1 million already) and suffer its consequences (e.g. more pages to maintain and watch) rather than deleting all this content that make an Episodes of Lost page the ~300-something largest page on Wikipedia-- especially when many TV shows have long, blow-by-blow recaps of episodes anyway.
So, basically what I'm saying is: that this page is more encyclopedic and that it follows the convention of most other articles out there on TV shows. Plus, Episodes of Lost (season x) does not follow naming conventions while this one does, and it's becoming more and more like this page anyway (see Talk:Episodes of Lost (season 1)/Drafts and Talk:Episodes of Lost (season 2)/Drafts) with shorter and shorter summaries. I propose that this page become the "official" Lost episode page-- and the links to individual episodes on this page point to either episode subsections on Episodes of Lost (season x) or (preferably) to individual episode articles to save the content that will be deleted when the drafts go live.
Cws125 20:31, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
- Even though this discussion has been had a dozen times over, I feel like it's necessary to have again, so here are my replies to what you said above:
- The rewrite of the episode guides was done with very strict guidelines to provide a synoptic overview of the episode without fancruft. Having each episode in its own article invites vast amounts of fancruft, which we spend a great deal of time reverting. It's barely manageable with all of the episodes on the same page, I'd hate to think what it would be like with all of the episodes on separate pages.
- The goal of the episode guides is not to "to fill us in if we missed an episode", it's to provide a brief, encyclopedic overview of what happened in an episode. If we were writing to fill people in, each episode would be thousands of words long, whereas we have a guideline to limit episode guides to 500 words.
- I have a feeling that if the authors who do want separate articles get their way, they're going to make the individual articles, and then leave them for us regular authors to clean up. Trust me when I say we do far too much reverts and clean up of fancruft the way it is (you can look at my history as proof, especially during January and February). Bottom line is that Lost is not like every other TV series on Wikipedia quite. People treat it too much like a fansite, so the best way to maintain data is to keep it short and conscience. I welcome you guys to stay here for a month and enforce the guidelines we have set for articles. You will end up cleaning up so much fancruft that I think you'll end up agreeing what everything I'm saying.
- Jtrost (T | C | #) 15:08, 18 March 2006 (UTC)
- Each and one of your arguments can also be used against centralization. Hell, it's even worst when you have it cloggered together because if the article is edited various times in the same day your watchlist will only show the last modification done on the article, ignoring the previous one. You say it's barely manageable while being on one single page; one can argue that such thing happens because information is centralized.
- You say there is a guideline stating that summaries must be limited to 500 words, but that contradicts the natures of wikis, that is meta:wiki is not paper and therefore there are "no size limits in the Wikipedia universe". A guideline is just a guideline, it is not a rule, it is a recommendation.
- I do not know why do you think the articles will be "left to 'us' the regular editors" when in reality the article(s) can and will be edited by many people, 'regular' or not. The 'regular' editors do not own the Lost articles.
- Lost is a TV series, period, it's no different than The Simpsons, South Park, or 24 (in a descriptive sense). It will have fans the same way that those series do, and be prone to fancruft the same way that they do. Stating that Lost is "different" from other TV series on Wikipedia is a personal opinion, not a fact. It can methodically and systematically be treated the same way that the other series were.
- You say that the best way to treat it is by keeping it short, and this contradicts the nature of Wikipedia enormously. We are not writing summaries, we are writing detailed and concise articles. There are no limits.
- I believe that the reason why you are cleaning articles so much is because you made a set of unrealistic guidelines in the first place. You need to understand that one of Wikipedia's philosophy is that "with many eyes, all bugs are shallow". We want everyone to contribute to articles, not only 'regular' editors.
- I have made a suggestion to you personally which IMO is the best solution for this. We can have List of Lost episodes and individual articles for each episode, while at the same time having articles such as Episodes of Lost (season 1) and Episodes of Lost (season 2). Anyone can contribute to both formats.
- Please leave the page as it is. Considering the nature of the show, it is very common to refer back to other episodes for reference or to refresh one's memory and if they are all on separate pages, that will be more trouble. Thank you, Lost Fan 99
- First of all, thanks for engaging in the discussion, guys. If anyone has comments, please do... comment.
- Fancruft and maintainability
- Yes, I realize that some people on Wikipedia go on and on with brilliant but totally unnecessary prose that span paragraphs but can just be said in one sentence-- and that it will be harder to enforce guidelines with all these different articles.
- However, putting in comments something like this at the episode article might work:
- ==Plot==
- <--This article has a policy adopted by consensus at Talk:Lost (TV series)/PlotSummaryPolicy. The plot summary for this article:
- * should be limited to 500 words.
- * should not contain brilliant prose, fancruft, speculation, or original research.
- * should only mention events important to the central character and his/her flashback, events that relate to the ongoing or future story lines, and events that emphasize the Story elements section in the main Lost article.
- -->
- Blah blah blah here goes the plot summary blah blah blah.
- Two separate goals, two separate pages
- When I think of "brief encyclopedic overview" for the episode listing page, I'm thinking of TV Guide-style one paragraph overview (like the ones on this page), not five paragraphs of plot summary in which the whole thing is a spoiler (argh!) and is too much effort to read unless you're actually interested in that episode-- the new drafts are still the same thing, just trimmed down! What if I just want to know what the episode is about, like "Claire with Kate and Rousseau try to find the place where Claire was taken so they can find a cure for Aaron's illness."?
- WHY NOT just a simple episode listing table like this with brief summaries, production code, airdate, etc. (which is more pretty, encyclopedic, organized, follows naming conventions, and exactly what many other shows like Star Trek, Family Guy, have standardized on) and links to individual article pages for those who want the plot summary (or want to go into more depth into that episode)?
- Cws125 07:21, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
- Why not both indeed? I support a single page listing all Lost episodes with a very brief (one sentence) description that then links to the season episode summary pages. As a trial, I've linked the Season 1 episode titles on the List page to the summaries. Take a look. I don't support a separate page for each episode. I can't think of any TV series that merits separate episode pages in Wikipedia. Perhaps in a specialized Wiki (Memory Alpha for example), but 79 articles on the Star Trek original series episodes? Too much. Rillian 14:08, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
- I agree, we can have both. I don't remember which TV show uses that format but I have seen it on Wikipedia. Alien vs. Predator (film) used this format (it was changed, don't know when). You can have a Summary section that is a short and concise paragraph describing the episode, and a Plot section describing the episode completely. Both need to have a spoiler warning. About the guidelines, you can not have any guideline that *limits* the content on articles, none. That guideline is absurd in Wikipedia. I have reverted your edit on List of Lost episodes, leave that page as it is, that is, an episode listing linking to individual articles. If you want to do that on Episodes of Lost (season 1) go ahead, but leave List of Lost episodes as it is. You need to browse other shows on Wikipedia so you can notice that we use that format already. For example, South Park has a listing of episodes where each episode is detailed in a Plot section (example: Cartman Gets an Anal Probe). —Joseph | Talk 17:12, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
- I just wanted to state for the record that I'm with the idea:
- [[List of Lost episodes]] providing links to [[Episodes of Lost (season x)]] and [[Title of episode (Lost)]]
- [[Episodes of Lost (season x)]] - pages with a short (one paragraph) summaries of all episodes of the season
- [[Title of episode (Lost)]] individual pages with long, detailed description for every episode
- I think this way everyone will be satisfied. NowotnyPL 17:49, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
- I just wanted to state for the record that I'm with the idea:
- Excellent idea. Would you be willing to help? =) For example, each episode has its own article but they need to be reverted back because someone redirected them to List of Lost episodes. I have been doing so but only when I get the chance to look at each episode individually. —Joseph | Talk 17:56, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
- Sure... when it comes to cleaning/other technical stuff I'm there... Since english is not my mother language I'm not so good with the writing though... But I think before we start reverting things a strong consensus should be worked out... So what do you say Jtrost? ;) NowotnyPL 18:24, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
- It's a great idea, as well-- except the names to better comply with naming conventions for TV series:
- [[Lost (TV series)]] points to [[List of Lost episodes]] as the official page for episodes
- [[List of Lost episodes]] points to [[Lost (season x)]] for brief plot summary
- [[Lost (season x)]] points to [[Title of episode (Lost)]] for long recaps
- [[Title of episode (Lost)]]
- This way, we can have List of Lost episodes for table listing and REALLY brief overviews without spoilers (like most TV shows out there), have something like Lost (season x) (like 24 (season 5), for example) for those who want a brief plot summary that follows the 500 words/no fancruft/etc guidelines, and individual episode article pages for those who want blow-by-blow recaps. Is there anyone who disagrees?
- Cws125 08:06, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
- Excellent idea. Would you be willing to help? =) For example, each episode has its own article but they need to be reverted back because someone redirected them to List of Lost episodes. I have been doing so but only when I get the chance to look at each episode individually. —Joseph | Talk 17:56, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
- Fine by me. Only I would like to keep this nice tables we have in List of Lost episodes and only add [[Lost (season x)]] link above it if we follow the plan above. Something like this for example. NowotnyPL 13:11, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
- I disagree with the idea of putting the List of Lost Episodes as the official page for episodes on the Lost (TV Series) page. I think that the [[Lost (season x)]] should be more easily accessible, as I think many people looking for episodes summaries would want to go to the [[Lost (season x)]] page rather than the List of Lost Episodes page. I'm not sure of an adequate solution to this problem, other than to either feature both the list and the [[Lost (season x)]] on the main page or to have a link to each [[Lost (season x)]] page at the top of the List of Lost Episodes page. --Kahlfin 20:35, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
- I think it's more encyclopedic to have List of Lost episodes as the official page for episodes-- for fans of the series, you'd probably want Lost (season x). But for the audience of a general purpose encyclopedia, I think an almanac-like listing of episodes without plot summary or spoilers would be more in line of what they would be looking for and more accessible (less information, organized into tables).
- However, I do think your solutions to make Lost (season x) and List of Lost episodes coexist are brilliant. However, out of (a) have both Lost (season x) and List of Lost episodes on the main Lost TV page or (b) have a link to Lost (season x) at the top of List of Lost episodes, I would prefer (b) but I would be more than happy with (a), too.
- Cws125 00:53, 23 March 2006 (UTC)
- ALIAS has been using the current format for its 4+ seasons and it seems to have worked fine for those pages. I think the current format is much more efficient, but I would be fine with both. --Kahlfin 19:21, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
Consistency is vitally important to Wikipedia We can't just change convention willy-nilly just because a few people want to turn Wikipedia in to a fan site. I vote for a merge. OldManSin 03:30, 3 April 2006 (UTC)
Having a detailed summary for each episode (per episode or per season) should be left for fan sites. Leave all the tid bits and trivia and cross overs for the fans to devour in their speculation. This site should only have this page for Lost episodes, but with separate pages for each season to keep things shorter and more to the point. -DJM. (fan of Wiki, not an editor and don't want to be)
Individual episode articles
To clarify my position, I support having a List of Lost episodes article. I don't support separate articles for each episode. The season summary pages are more than enough. Based on the lengthy and repeated discussions on Talk:Episodes of Lost (season 2) there is not consensus among Wikipedians for having individual articles. Perhaps a straw poll will help? Rillian 19:05, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
- See List of South Park episodes, List of The Simpsons episodes, List of That '70s Show episodes, tv.com's Lost episode guide, Lost's official recaps, Wikipedia:WikiProject List of Television Episodes, Wikipedia:WikiProject Television episodes, meta:wiki is not paper, and information overload. There's really no need to discuss the matter further. It has been done before, other websites do it as well (the official website being one of them), and we have WikiProjects related to this. Basically the reason behind it is that while you see it as 'nough, other readers and contributors don't. Episodes can have infoboxes, quotations, trivia, analysis, etc. There are contributors willing to help with such tasks. —Joseph | Talk 00:31, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
- Yeah, I've seen all those episode lists and most of them look like shit. I just went to one of the South Park episode pages, and I found a ton of spelling errors, crap grammar, way too much fancruft, and pointless trivia. So don't use that as an argument for breaking up episodes into articles. Danflave 17:08, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
- There has been an absolutely collossal discussion at the talk page of Wikipedia:Centralized discussion/Television_episodes about the issue of separate articles (definitely much larger than the one at Lost) with every imaginable argument against and for each side-- however, I found their guideline on "Creating articles on television episodes" that was adopted by consensus to be quite reasonable and wondering why Lost shouldn't also follow it.
More important than having many articles on TV episodes is having good articles on those TV episodes. Therefore, it may not be a good idea to create small articles on every episode of a television show. However, it may still make sense to add information about a television episode to Wikipedia. The following process is a suggested method of doing so:
- First, create an article on the television show.
- Once there's enough independently verifiable information to do so, create articles on each season, or some other logical division, of the show.
- Once there's enough independently verifiable information included about individual episodes, spin the information from episodes out into their own articles.
- In my opinion, Lost definitely has enough information to justify spinning episodes off into their own articles-- FOR ORGANIZATIONAL SAKE ALONE, I would absolutely demand individual articles. I have failed to see an argument why Lost is special or unique enough to not have separate articles-- not general arguments against this guideline (e.g. increases my watchlist, more articles to police, etc.)-- and I feel allowing the episode subsections to become "article-size" in a new article away from the main article is better than someone constantly maintaining (deleting stuff from) the main article so that the episode subsections are "subsection-sized".
- Also, I found this quote (on the talk page of that article) from Jimbo Wales in 2004 (so his view may have changed) but I thought it summed up the argument precisely: "Why shouldn't there be a page for every Simpsons character, and even a table listing every episode, all neatly crosslinked and introduced by a shorter central page like the above? Why shouldn't every episode name in the list link to a separate page for each of those episodes, with links to reviews and trivia? Why shouldn't each of the 100+ poker games I describe have its own page with rules, strategy, and opinions? Hard disks are cheap. --Jimbo Wales" (emphasis mine)
- Cws125 09:11, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
- You haven't seen an argument as to why Lost is unique enough? Lost has a completely linear storyline, and each episode relates to the next and many before and after it. And unlike other TV shows with linear storylines, episodes of Lost have details that can be incredibly important to the episodes before and after them (e.g. Locke and Boone, on their way to a plane, find the corpse of a Nigerian drug runner dressed as a priest; 14 episodes later, it turns out that this man saved Mr. Eko's life). This may not be the best example, but things like this happen all the time in Lost, and as such the episodes should be compiled in a format in which someone can get a general idea of the storyline at a particular point in the show, not an idea of what happened in a particular 42 minutes of the storyline that aired at a certain date. I know this from experience, as I once wanted to know a part of the Lost storyline that spanned seven episodes, and would have found this immensely difficult if I had had to visit seven different pages in order to find what I was looking for, especially if I had wanted to save it to disk and later paraphrase it. I think that when most people visit the Lost summary pages, they're there because they're looking for a general idea of the storyline at a certain point, not because they missed an episode and want to catch up. Lost is a continuous storyline, and thus requires a continuous page. --Kahlfin 21:20, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
- That is an extremely weak argument. That '70s Show (List of That '70s Show episodes), Stargate SG-1 (List of Stargate SG-1 episodes), and Xena: Warrior Princess (List of Xena: Warrior Princess episodes) have linear storylines as well and their episodes are separated. The Sopranos is linear as well and recently some contributors have started to create individual articles for their episodes (List of The Sopranos episodes). —Joseph | Talk 23:01, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
- First of all, in my opinion, the Lost storyline is more connected and detail oriented than any of the shows you mentioned. Second of all, the list format doesn't necessarily work for those shows either. Third, I wasn't disagreeing outright with the idea of a list of episodes, I was simply providing an argument as to why Lost was unique enough because Cws125 claimed not to have heard one. --Kahlfin 19:27, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
- That is an extremely weak argument. That '70s Show (List of That '70s Show episodes), Stargate SG-1 (List of Stargate SG-1 episodes), and Xena: Warrior Princess (List of Xena: Warrior Princess episodes) have linear storylines as well and their episodes are separated. The Sopranos is linear as well and recently some contributors have started to create individual articles for their episodes (List of The Sopranos episodes). —Joseph | Talk 23:01, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
- Yes, every show has fans who think it's totally unique and different from everything else. The fact is that regardless of what kind of show it is, it should still follow guidelines and precedent (and the ideals of Mr. Wales). Consolidating the season pages and writing individual episode articles worked well for the List of Futurama episodes and other pages; I believe it's what should be done here. CWMcGee 02:00, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
- Wait a second... So you're saying that because it worked for Futurama that it's going to work for Lost because they're both TV shows (and have almost nothing in common besides that)? The guidelines and precedent may work well in general, but in my opinion I don't think they'll work well for LOST, and all personal biases aside, here's why: I think the current format is easier to read and research. Within the current format, if someone wants to look at any number of LOST episodes, they can easily do so without having to load many different pages. If someone only wants to view a particulat LOST episode but is confused because they do not know what happened at the end of the last episode, they don't have to go to the list, visit another page, and then go back to the page they were reading first. In addition, there's the point I made in the above paragraph: If someone wants to research and save to disk part of the LOST storyline that spans many episodes, they will have to save many pages, which is inconvenient. I know other linear storylines have adopted the list policy, and I'm curious as to whether they've considered this. That being said, it's not so much the list I oppose as much as the prominence that people seem to want to give it. I fear that with a list linking to 40+ seperate articles, the articles will no doubt be full of original research, fancruft and grammatical errors due to the fact that it will be much harder for the Wikipedia commmunity to watch 40-some (eventually 144) articles. By no means should such a page replace the [Episodes of Lost (season x)] pages as the main episode page for LOST. --Kahlfin 19:28, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
- Well, what do you think of maintaining both-- a season page (for season-wide plot summary) as well as an article page on each episode (episode-wide plot summary) like has been suggested above)?
- The main Lost TV show page would link to a standardized list of Lost episodes (this page) for an encyclopedic and bird's eye view of all Lost episodes, a format that is more consistent with other TV shows. That page would then link to [[Episodes of Lost (season x)]] (or Lost (season x) for better naming consistency), which is now being shortened into Talk:Episodes of Lost (season 1)/Drafts and Talk:Episodes of Lost (season 2)/Drafts with strict guidelines-- e.g. 500 words, no brilliant prose, no fancruft, etcetera.
- I think that's a good idea, except for one thing: I'm afraid that the [Episodes of Lost (season x)] pages will be overlooked by people who are new to the Lost pages and don't necessarily know about them. Here's what I think should happen: There should be links on the main Lost (TV series) page to both the List of Lost episodes and the [Episodes of Lost (season x)] pages. That way people can choose which one to visit. Are there any objections to this? Because if not, I'm going to add the List of Lost episodes page to the main Lost (TV Series) page and otherwise keep the Lost (TV series) page exactly the way it is. Does anyone have a problem with this? --Kahlfin 14:55, 23 March 2006 (UTC)
- All of the content on the current Episodes of Lost (season x) that will be deleted would be saved on the article pages for each episode.
- Yes, there would be 40+ something articles, but seeing (a) how other fancruft-inviting shows with this format don't seem to be that problematic (b) we're saving content from deletion (c) and some people just prefer viewing articles on episodes (just click Next or Previous Episode to navigate), don't you think this satisfies everybody?
- Cws125 00:42, 23 March 2006 (UTC)
- Wait a second... So you're saying that because it worked for Futurama that it's going to work for Lost because they're both TV shows (and have almost nothing in common besides that)? The guidelines and precedent may work well in general, but in my opinion I don't think they'll work well for LOST, and all personal biases aside, here's why: I think the current format is easier to read and research. Within the current format, if someone wants to look at any number of LOST episodes, they can easily do so without having to load many different pages. If someone only wants to view a particulat LOST episode but is confused because they do not know what happened at the end of the last episode, they don't have to go to the list, visit another page, and then go back to the page they were reading first. In addition, there's the point I made in the above paragraph: If someone wants to research and save to disk part of the LOST storyline that spans many episodes, they will have to save many pages, which is inconvenient. I know other linear storylines have adopted the list policy, and I'm curious as to whether they've considered this. That being said, it's not so much the list I oppose as much as the prominence that people seem to want to give it. I fear that with a list linking to 40+ seperate articles, the articles will no doubt be full of original research, fancruft and grammatical errors due to the fact that it will be much harder for the Wikipedia commmunity to watch 40-some (eventually 144) articles. By no means should such a page replace the [Episodes of Lost (season x)] pages as the main episode page for LOST. --Kahlfin 19:28, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
- That's a preference. You would like it to be centralized, even tho individual articles are easier to navigate through. Your proposal is similar to how countries articles were developed years ago, until contributors found out that it was incredibly tiresome to edit and read an enormous article. Contributors then began to create summaries about sections while linking to main articles about a particular subject (example: History of the United States).
- Your format requires a user to download say, 50K, when he will only use the last 2K of the whole page. It's unnecessary, but you are forcing them to do so. I highly recommend that you read a book about web design. This kind of discussion has technical implications. It has been researched for years. Most users don't spend time reading long passages of text presented on a screen. A computer screen provides a limited view of a long document. Your first screen capture (1024x768 as of today, moving towards 1280x960) is what makes the user stay on the page. If you don't give them what they want in that space, they will browse something else. Long documents lose people. Links exists so you can create chunks of information that can be presented in a structured form. I understand your point of view and this is why I do not oppose that other contributors develop and maintain summaries by season, but allow other contributors to create individual articles as well. —Joseph | Talk 02:44, 23 March 2006 (UTC)
- I agree... plus, no one forces anybody to have 40+ pages in the watchlist... This is your choice... You don't want to keep track of all the changes in the episodes' articles...? fine... you don't have to... there are people who will... NowotnyPL 12:06, 23 March 2006 (UTC)
- The point about a long document is a good one, however, I think it's best to keep both formats incase someone does want to look at the whole season. As for no one forcing anybody to have those pages on their watchlist, I agree with this as well, but I'm worried about who is going to do it. I know someone will eventually, because this is how Wikipedia works. But as most of the regular Lost editors seem to oppose the list (correct me if I'm wrong), I'm simply afraid that these 40+ pages will grow out of control with fancruft and speculation for months before anyone volunteers the time to watch them. I mean, sure, people will watch pages here and there, but I think it's going to be a while before every page is watched by a regular Wikipedian. --Kahlfin 14:55, 23 March 2006 (UTC)
- I agree... plus, no one forces anybody to have 40+ pages in the watchlist... This is your choice... You don't want to keep track of all the changes in the episodes' articles...? fine... you don't have to... there are people who will... NowotnyPL 12:06, 23 March 2006 (UTC)
- I really don't see how it's so much easier for someone looking at the whole season to scroll down a bit than it is to click a link on the side of the page. Furthermore, the "regular" editors not wanting do it is not an adequate argument. :( At any rate, do you really think smaller pages will end up containing that much more fancruft than a couple of giant pages? CWMcGee 18:44, 23 March 2006 (UTC)
- I didn't say we shouldn't do it because regular editors don't want it, I said I was concerned about who's going to do it. I realize that it doesn't matter what "regular" editors want, but do we all want 50 bad articles that don't adhere to guidelines? Not that this is a reason not to do it, but I just thought I'd express concern. --Kahlfin 19:28, 23 March 2006 (UTC)
- I really don't see how it's so much easier for someone looking at the whole season to scroll down a bit than it is to click a link on the side of the page. Furthermore, the "regular" editors not wanting do it is not an adequate argument. :( At any rate, do you really think smaller pages will end up containing that much more fancruft than a couple of giant pages? CWMcGee 18:44, 23 March 2006 (UTC)
- If we have individual episodes articles, which it seems we now do, should we delete Episodes of Lost (season 2) due to redundancy? --M@thwiz2020 01:21, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
- There is a current guide under development at Talk: Episodes of Lost (season 2)/Drafts, but since it isn't complete yet, we could either leave the article the way it is and have it be redundant until the new guide is done, or we could delete it and have no Episodes of Lost (season 2) page until the new guide is done. I'm really not sure which is a better option. --Kahlfin 21:36, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
- The usefulness of the individual episode articles is still being disputed. The best course of action in my opinion is to keep using the articles with the episodes on one page until this is resolved. Jtrost (T | C | #) 18:40, 30 March 2006 (UTC)
- If we have individual episodes articles, which it seems we now do, should we delete Episodes of Lost (season 2) due to redundancy? --M@thwiz2020 01:21, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
- I Agree, I think it's much easier for people to have just a small list like the one in List of Lost episodes, then if one wan't more information they can click on it to see it's full information. Plus some episodes can go really deep such as Lockdown (Lost) and I bet you don't want to put that with other lost episodes and pile up god only knows how many episodes (or not) --muhaidib-- (Talk | #info |
) 02:09, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
- I Agree, I think it's much easier for people to have just a small list like the one in List of Lost episodes, then if one wan't more information they can click on it to see it's full information. Plus some episodes can go really deep such as Lockdown (Lost) and I bet you don't want to put that with other lost episodes and pile up god only knows how many episodes (or not) --muhaidib-- (Talk | #info |
Consensus to keep both formats?
From what I have read in this discussion, it seems that while there is dispute about where to put them, there seems to be a general consensus to keep both this page and the [Episodes of Lost (season x)] pages (by moving the current content on the season pages to individual articles and using the [Talk: Episodes of Lost (season x)/drafts] to replace the current [Episodes of Lost (season x)] pages). As such, if there are no objections, I'm going to remove the mergefrom tags from both this page and from the Season pages. Does anyone have any objections to keeping both episode formats and/or to removing the mergefrom tags? --Kahlfin 19:19, 24 March 2006 (UTC)
- Wait -- no. What is going on here? I am gone for 2 weeks and I come back and there are these hideously redundant episode guides?? Who are these "Joseph" and "Cws" guys? Why are these strangers dictating how long-term Lost editors should edit and maintain the page? These people are rudely imposing their whims on editors who have spent incredible amounts of time and energy on these pages. My question to "Joseph" and "Cws" and these other bullies who have suddenly shown up -- are YOU ALL going to be adding the 50+ new Lost articles to your watchlists? Are you all going to spend hours editing and cleaning up all the cruft and vandalism that these pages will attract? And don't use that argument that South Park and other shows have their own episode pages. I have seen those episode pages and THEY ARE CRAP -- absolutely glutted with spelling errors, bad grammar, outrageous cruft, pointless trivia, etc, etc, etc. I can't believe you people coming here and making these enormous changes and then abandoning all of us long-term Lost editors to take care of your mess. So NO -- there is NO consensus. I think having two episode guides is insane. KEEP IT THE WAY IT WAS. Danflave 17:03, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
- Agreed that there is no consensus. We're trying here, collectively, to create a quality encyclopedia, folks, and a proliferation of fragmented articles pretty clearly has the precedent of doing the opposite (just look at the South Park and Simpsons examples that have been cited): poor grammar, spelling, tense, etc. We now have 40+ standalone episode articles with slightly varying text from the summary page, with cruft added daily in one or both places for multiple articles. What a fiasco, and we should set about putting all of these into AFD. Yes, let's keep it the way it was, and exercise absolute draconian control over the constant addition of "more more more" to episode summaries, so we can keep things short. "More" is not better, "more" is NOT encyclopedic in and of itself, "more" is just pushing us towards a junior high product in terms of level and sophistication. -- PKtm 20:45, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
- Exactly, this a collective effort. Draconian control is contrary to Wikipedia's policies. I suggest that you read Wikipedia:Ownership of articles. While you may like draconian control, others have already argued that this is contrary to progress. About fancruft I suggest that you read Wikipedia:Fancruft which is NOT an official policy. It is still a hot debate simply because what you consider fancruft may be informational and useful to others. And about consensus, it seems that you haven't even read Wikipedia:WikiProject List of Television Episodes, Wikipedia:WikiProject Television episodes, Wikipedia:Centralized discussion/Television episodes, or meta:wiki is not paper. —Joseph | Talk 22:18, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
- There has already been a discussion about this. Please read the following links: Wikipedia:WikiProject List of Television Episodes, Wikipedia:WikiProject Television episodes, meta:wiki is not paper, and information overload. About who I am, I'm a contributor, just like you. No one is dictacting anything, we are following conventions and consesus reached by other contributors (see Wikipedia:Centralized discussion/Television episodes). About adding Lost to my watchlist, no I won't, because I don't even use the watchlist tool. I have had 0 articles in my watchlist for months. It helps immesively beleive me, articles are better built when many contribute to them, don't be overzealous about them. Like I said before, the 'long-term Lost editors' do not own the Lost articles. You need to understand that just because you dedicate more time to the Lost articles that other contributors, this doesn't make you its de facto manager. The articles will be edited by many (Wikipedia has 1,000,000 contributors), and not only by you or a small group. Keep this in mind. —Joseph | Talk 22:18, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
- Here's a quote from the centralized discussion: More important than having many articles on TV episodes is having good articles on those TV episodes. Therefore, it may not be a good idea to create small articles on every episode of a television show. What that tells me is that each show's editors must decide what's in the best interest of the quality of the articles. I think I speak for myself and many others here when I say that we strongly believe that the best way to maintain quality is to keep episode guides short and to the point on one page. We can hold a straw poll and see if that helps resolve our differences. Jtrost (T | C | #) 22:34, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
- You speak for me, too, but up until now, as I've been one of the only ones even trying to keep the original episode pages, I was kind of hoping to work out a compromise. However, if a straw poll is the best way to resolve this, I'd definitely take your position. --Kahlfin 21:29, 29 March 2006 (UTC)'
- Here's a quote from the centralized discussion: More important than having many articles on TV episodes is having good articles on those TV episodes. Therefore, it may not be a good idea to create small articles on every episode of a television show. What that tells me is that each show's editors must decide what's in the best interest of the quality of the articles. I think I speak for myself and many others here when I say that we strongly believe that the best way to maintain quality is to keep episode guides short and to the point on one page. We can hold a straw poll and see if that helps resolve our differences. Jtrost (T | C | #) 22:34, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
- Danflave, I respect your opinion-- but try to realize that some people think that the List of Lost episodes page (with sub-articles) is considerably more encyclopedic, prettier, and more standardized and that the current Episodes of Lost page is awfully long, full of fancruft and spoilers, and a little disorganized.
- I would prefer that the main article on Wikipedia on episodes of Lost to be nicely organized like an almanac and be more accessible for the audience for a general purpose encyclopedia, and link to additional articles for more detail. Some people prefer an episode-guide-like article with the plot summary all on one page.
- I think having two different formats is a good compromise, instead of degenerating into a cut-throat war of which one should be removed. I know there is some redundancy now between the individual episode articles and the Episodes of Lost (season x) pages, but that won't be an issue when the new drafts with the 500 words/no brilliant prose/etc. episode plot summaries go live on the Episodes of Lost (season x) pages.
- P.S. I think fancruft is definitely a problem with having separate episode articles. However, in my opinion, it's the lesser of two evils-- 1) constantly battling fancruft/quality/etc. when absolutely everything is all on one page since it leads to it having really super high visibility, or 2) having a really nice, accessible, short-and-pretty front page like List of Lost episodes that links to other subarticles-- when you have fancruft, it's on a less visible subarticle so it doesn't need to be as urgently fixed and isn't as bad.
- P.P.S. Could some of you point out some specific examples of episode articles of South Park or the Simpsons that have bad grammar, spelling errors, or outrageous cruft so that we have a better idea of what you're talking about? I promise not to fix them... :)
- Cws125 11:01, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
Straw poll
Should we have a straw poll here to decide the fate of Lost articles? --M@thwiz2020 00:25, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
- Define what you mean. Are you concerned (as I am) about the proliferation of articles on minor topics? Or does this pertain to the episode summaries? Or something else? -- PKtm 00:56, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
- So this is like a straw poll to decide if we should have a straw poll :p I think we should have one to decide if we should stick to single page summaries or have a separate page for each article. Jtrost (T | C | #) 00:58, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
- sure, let's do that--muhaidib-- (Talk | #info | ) 02:35, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
- Keep in mind that having both is also an option. --Kahlfin 14:01, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
- We currently have three formats in existence:
- List of episodes with really short summaries
- List of episodes with really long summaries
- Individual episode articles
- We have to decided which of the three to keep. Hence, a three-way straw poll? Keep it open for one week - I can't vote until Saturday, unfortunately :( --M@thwiz2020 12:56, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
- We currently have three formats in existence:
- three?? really,, I only know about two, the one with really long summaries Episodes of Lost (season 1) and List of Lost episodes, which one is the one you got labled (#1) in yout list? --muhaidib-- (Talk | #info | ) 13:10, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
- Season 1 contains short summaries (under 500 words each) and season 2 contains long summaries (many are over 500 words). Jtrost (T | C | #) 13:28, 12 April 2006 (UTC) Jtrost (T | C | #) 13:28, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
- ohhh,,, I though you mean like a third type or somthing like that lol, anyways it's too early in the mornin' for arguing,, so good mornin' guys :P,, got classes to go to ;),,, peace --muhaidib-- (Talk | #info | ) 13:40, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
- ohhh,,, I though you mean like a third type or somthing like that lol, anyways it's too early in the mornin' for arguing,, so good mornin' guys :P,, got classes to go to ;),,, peace --muhaidib-- (Talk | #info |
- Equally, see the shortened summary work that's been done at Talk:Episodes of Lost (season 1)/Drafts and Talk:Episodes of Lost (season 2)/Drafts. I don't necessarily like the specific summaries in every case yet, but I do think that keeping each summary to a defined (and relatively short) length is one way of keeping out the incessant insertion of fancruft. -- PKtm 17:09, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
- Season 1 contains short summaries (under 500 words each) and season 2 contains long summaries (many are over 500 words). Jtrost (T | C | #) 13:28, 12 April 2006 (UTC) Jtrost (T | C | #) 13:28, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
- sure, let's do that--muhaidib-- (Talk | #info |
You people are just complicating too much. There is obviously enough material for separate episode's articles so why not having a list of all and one for each episode? This has been tested and works perfectly. See Startrek or Stargate.--Tone 21:27, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
- Read the above discussions. There are plenty of arguments not to do this, and I'm not going to repeat them here. An article for each season has worked for shows such as ALIAS and 24. I definitely think that a straw poll is a good idea, but until we decide to do one (or not to do one), I'm not going to argue this much further. My point is that there is clearly divided opinion on the matter, and that not everyone would agree with you're argument. That's why I think a straw poll is a good idea; we need a definitive solution to this. --Kahlfin 13:57, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
- What I meant was that we have:
- Short summaries: List of Lost episodes
- Long summaries: Episodes of Lost (season 1) and Episodes of Lost (season 2)
- Individual articles: Lockdown (Lost), etc.
- We should have three straw polls. The first is should we keep the list, yes or no. The second is should we keep the longer pages, yes or no. And the third, should we keep individual articles, yes or no. Then we go from there to decide the actual content of the articles. --M@thwiz2020 00:11, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
- well really the short-list and the individual articles are kindda one,, they link to each other, so it's really between the one with all the episodes included in the page or the one with the breif list that has details on episodes articles, so it's only two not three--muhaidib-- (Talk | #info | ) 01:10, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
- I don't think the purpose of this page is to replace the Episodes of Lost (season x) pages. It's to serve as a list that links to all of the episodes across every season. Jtrost (T | C | #) 11:56, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
- Yes, but my previous experience is that the individual articles start out the same as the summaries on the Episodes of Lost (season x) pages, they just become different because people will edit one without editing the other. Hence, maybe we can have a poll with three voting options:
- Keep List of Lost episodes and Dave (Lost), etc. but delete Episodes of Lost (season 2), etc.
- Keep Episodes of Lost (season 2), etc. but delete List of Lost episodes and Dave (Lost), etc.
- Neither of the above (please explain what you want to happen)
- Will that work? --M@thwiz2020 19:07, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
- I disagree. This page originally linked to the episodes on one page, and I supported creating this page because I liked the idea of having a link to each episode on one page. So I would like to keep this page and the Episodes of Lost (season x) pages. I think the options should be (I have bolded the changes I made):
- Keep individual episodes Dave (Lost), etc. and redirect Episodes of Lost (season 2), etc. to List of Lost episodes
- Keep Episodes of Lost (season 2), etc. and redirect Dave (Lost), etc. to List of Lost episodes
- Neither of the above (please explain what you want to happen)
- Jtrost (T | C | #) 19:17, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
- I disagree. This page originally linked to the episodes on one page, and I supported creating this page because I liked the idea of having a link to each episode on one page. So I would like to keep this page and the Episodes of Lost (season x) pages. I think the options should be (I have bolded the changes I made):
- Yes, but my previous experience is that the individual articles start out the same as the summaries on the Episodes of Lost (season x) pages, they just become different because people will edit one without editing the other. Hence, maybe we can have a poll with three voting options:
- well really the short-list and the individual articles are kindda one,, they link to each other, so it's really between the one with all the episodes included in the page or the one with the breif list that has details on episodes articles, so it's only two not three--muhaidib-- (Talk | #info |
- What I meant was that we have:
 |
Keep the episode articles and redirect the season articles to the list article
Keep the season articles and redirect the episode articles to the list article
Neither of the above (please elaborate below in the "discussion" section)Discussion
I hate to say this, Muhaidib, but if you are going to be monitoring the new Lost episode articles for spelling and grammar, then I am very scared. Danflave 15:57, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
Another reason why the season articles should stay: Stuff like this will happen... a lot. Jtrost (T | C | #) 23:53, 21 April 2006 (UTC)
Hi, I don't know what to vote for but what happens when the LIST article stays? what happens to the SEASON articles? I think they should just have a season synopsis no details about the episodes, maybe links to them, is that option in the vote list? --No time87 18:23, 22 April 2006 (UTC) I'm remaining neutral but I want to stress the importance that one of these solutions are reached, because the current format (lists with recaps + articles), is crazy! Arru 19:32, 23 April 2006 (UTC)
People who write fancruft and speculative stuff about future episodes are going to do it anyway, whether it's on the main season page or on individual episode articles. I would prefer they do it on a very low visibility article than do it on a high visibility season article that needs to be constantly watched by a dedicated team of Wikipedians. And these low visibility articles *are* cleaned up-- take a look: ? (Lost), Three Minutes (Lost), Live Together, Die Alone (Lost). They're clean. Yes, they were bad at one point, but I'm also sure that the season pages contained speculative fancruft and bad grammar at points, too. You know, I seriously doubt anyone goes to a future episode unless they're *looking* for speculation. If they don't want to be spoiled, they're not going to go there. Yes, it's bad that these articles usually contain speculation and content of bad quality-- but some good Wikipedian is going to clean it up. I would prefer this stuff be banished to a low key article (e.g. a "seedy" district of Wikipedia) where it can be fixed without much ado instead of constantly battling these guys on the main season article where innocent users can stumble upon fancruft and whatnot if they're at the right place at the wrong time. Cws125 10:32, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
You know, this has gotten insane. If you notice, the dedicated Wikipedians who have been diligently editing the Lost articles for months all voted the same way. However, a large group of random, overzealous individuals came in and basically just made an enormous change to the Lost articles even though they've put no effort into the pages (nor will they most likely be involved in the new changes.) They're all being led by some guy who doesn't understand Wikipedia rules and actually CREATED an article of complete Original Research. I am with PKtm and JTrost. I am done with the Lost episode articles. I am still happy to help maintain the main Lost page and the Characters pages, but I am not going to let myself be stressed by maintaining 100+ episode articles. And can I please just add -- over and over and over, people keep using this argument about how The Simpsons and South Park all have episode articles and it's "worked out fine." I want to ask all of you -- what are you talking about??? I constantly see bad grammar, original research, misspellings, cruft, cruft, and ubercruft in all of these episode articles. It's atrocious. And now this is what we'll have for Lost. Thank you Muhaidib. I hope you will maintain these new articles with better spelling and English grammar than you've displayed in your Talk comments. Also, you really need to read this. Danflave 15:39, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
|
Consensus
 |
Reaching a consensusWe have to reach a consensus about which article to keep. The Poll was finished today with 22 votes to redirect the season articles and 12 votes to keep the season articles. How does it work? As I already explained, I don't want to DELETE the Lost season articles, I just want to make it a small and brief article that talks about the season in general, and have a link to the Lost episodes for more detail. Its really just common sense.
--muhaidib-- (Talk | #info |
Wikipedia is not a democracy. There are plenty of TV series with articles on each episode, and more with articles about seasons and series. The rough consensus here is that each episode should have its own article, while the articles on the seasons should redirect to the list of episodes. I strongly recommend creating a template box with links to the previous and next episodes, to put at the end of each episode's page, so that people browsing through can go easily through the episodes. Finally, remember that Wikipedia is an encyclopaedia, not a fansite or a review site, so long reviews don't really have any place. Hope this helps. Stifle (talk) 23:23, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
|
Serious Consensus Problem
The Season 1 and Season 2 articles are 80 KB and 156 KB, respectively, which is WAY farther than the 'maximum' of 32 KB. We have talked about this for a very long time, but right now we NEED to come to a consensus on the Season articles/individual episode articles. Currently we have two conflicting systems that will not continue to work together; we have two different 'articles' about each episode that are not the same. This can continue to drag on, but before we get to Season 3 I think it is crucial to end this issue right now. PLEASE comment here. -- Wikipedical 22:11, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
OK. This issue has not exactly suffered from lack of comment (see above: #Straw poll, #Consensus, etc.) All the basic arguments have been put forward again and again by both sides.
Let me try to shed some new or perhaps slightly different light on the discussion, though. Things to note:
- Virtually every long-standing contributor to Lost-related articles voted to keep the season articles and not have the individual episode articles.
- With no consensus having emerged, we've let the individual episode articles "happen" for 2-3 months now.
- For a couple of reasons, several long-standing contributors (myself among them) who had declared their lack of support for individual articles have refrained from contributing/editing those individual articles.
Take a step back and look at the results, dispassionately. Look at (just for example, but there are countless examples to choose from) Live Together, Die Alone (individual article) vs. Episodes of Lost (season 2)#Live Together, Die Alone (section of the season article). What do we see?
- The season article has four trivia bullet points for this episode, all of which strike me as arguably notable;
- The individual episode article, however, has fifteen trivia bullet points for this episode, including obvious speculation, original research, non-notable items, and fancruft. E.g., these points use language such as "most likely a reference" and "possibly an allusion". They include pointing out of continuity errors, which is fan material, not encyclopedic material.
I could go on with further examples from the body of the text as well. My point is probably obvious: without the attention of the various seasoned Lost editors, these articles have deteriorated and contain material that is contrary to Wikipedia goals and tenets. If those editors had participated, the articles would have been kept in check in these matters. But the editors I'm referring to don't want the inundation of the multiple articles, for precisely this reason! It obviously falls on their shoulders to keep out the trivia etc. If they're not there, the trivia mounts up, literally. Without the stops and checks and balances, people seem to simply follow the "more must be better" philosophy, but more is not better, and we can see that tangibly now.
The results speak for themselves, in other words. Let's stop this discussion and go back to manageable, season-oriented articles containing reasonably short synopses. -- PKtm 01:07, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
Keep in mind, that this wiki is available for everyone - not just regular editors (i.e. majority voted individual pages). -- —Preceding unsigned comment added by 154.20.217.225 (talk • contribs) 04:31, 31 May 2006
- Please see Wikipedia is not a democracy. My points had everything to do with quality and not with sheer numbers. Please do sign your posts, by the way. Thanks. -- PKtm 05:24, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
Back when we had a straw poll, I voted for keeping the list and episode articles, because I think the idea of them, and the design of each individual episode page looks much nicer, and the information is much more accesible. I stuck by my decision until very recently. Now, however, I have come round to another way of thinking. There is no doubt about it -- there are a handful of editors who actively contribute to the season articles, and keep the quality of the episode summaries very high. These editors spend a lot of their time monitoring the season articles, removing pointless trivia, etc. (this has already been mentioned). So here is my new argument to just get rid of this list, even though it seems so nice on the surface. Just now, I looked back at some of the season 1 episode articles. I thought, that because of the nature of a television show, the much older episodes would not be edited much nowadays, so would be pretty encyclopaedic. Here are just a few of my observations:
- All the Best Cowboys Have Daddy Issues: (trivia) "In episode 10 "raised by another" Claire's boy friend claims that she has daddy Abandonment issues."
- Hearts and Minds: (last two sentences) "Sayid figures it must be faulty because its magnetic north does not align with true north. This last bit may have something to do with the magnetic fields coming from the Hatch."
- Exodus: (section titled 'Climax') "Though we don't know what lies inside yet, one thing is certain-- it's a long way down...and the ladder won't be taking them down......."
No joke -- these are just copied and pasted. These are just three points I quickly picked up on. Most of these articles have at least something in them which is unencyclopeadic. There is also, of course, the fact that the pictures have now been removed from this list article, and from the discussion, in my opinion, it doesn't look like they'll be back. I reckon it's just about the right time to start deleting a whole load of articles. Tomcage9 01:36, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
I disagree. I'm a long-term reader of Wkipedia but more recently, a contributor too. I believe this list with individual episode pages should prevail for the following reasons. Firstly, aesthetics. This list is very well laid out, clear, intersting and extremely professional. The other two lists don't achieve this standard and look amateurish. No offence intended to the editors. Like it or not this will attract readers. There are numerous templates on Wikipedia for keeping a uniform look to certain subjects. This occurs for a reason. Secondly, ease of reading. The first two lists have way too much information on for a quick scan, and not enough for an in-depth look at the episode. Lost is one of the most popular shows of our time and consequently the most talked about. There is going to be a lot of information on each episode both contributed and demanded. Say you remembered something from an earlier episode and wanted to find that episode quickly. You would have to read a lot of information, we're talking pages and pages, before you found the episode you wanted via the two lists. This is unacceptable. In this list you can scan down the table and find that episode extremely quickly. Then, if you so desired, could visit the individial page and learn a lot more. Obviously not possible on the other two lists. I find it disheatening that regular contributors to the other two lists would 'throw their toys out of the pram' because another list has been created that is better. If you see meaningless trivia in the individual episodes then delete it. If something isn't necessary then change it, or delete it. There isn't two teams here. It is a community. Refusing to edit certain articles smacks of jealousy to me. I vote to keep this list and the individual episode articles and discard the unwieldy, cumbersome and dated first two lists. Gary Fothergill 19:31, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
- I agree that because of the complex nature of the Lost episode format, that an entire page for each episode is appropriate. For some other television shows, a few sentences as a general synopsis is fine, but Lost by its very nature requires more room to explain what's been going on, often with snapshot (yes, fair use) images to clarify certain complex descriptions. When all episodes are on a single "season" page, this lends to a looonnnnng page with a lot of images, and it is cumbersome. A better way to handle things is to have a "hub" season page (sort of like the "?" Station, heh), which includes a brief 1-paragraph synopsis of each episode, and then spokes out to a "main article" with more information on each individual episode. I do understand that this would mean a lot of merging, and that some people would be upset that their work might be wiped out. I empathize, because I too would see some of my own writing deleted in this manner. But something clearly has to be done, to avoid this constant forking where entire episodes are getting basically duplicated descriptions on two different pages. --Elonka 19:49, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
- I obviously didn't make my points clearly enough. The question is not with the list, which I agree adds value (photos or no photos, but I won't go there for now). The question is with the individual episode articles--i.e., having many additional dozens of Lost articles to keep track of and manage out the constant deluge of fancruft, non-notable trivia, original research, etc. The long-standing and most energetic/involved editors here have all weighed in on this, and almost unanimously don't support individual pages because of the increased load monitoring all those articles would place on them, versus monitoring a single per-season article. And, as we've seen, without those editors' involvement (see my comments and Tomcage9's comments above), the individual pages obviously do deteriorate, away from Wikipedia's goals and tenets. It's not a case of "throwing our toys out of the pram" (or, in the American equivalent, "taking our bat and ball and going home"). It's not a case of (!) jealousy. It's a case of not being willing to sign up for something that will be inundating and unsupportable, particularly when there's a viable and supportable alternative already at hand.
- By the way, the List article can just as easily link to sections of the appropriate season article (as it used to); there's absolutely nothing that ties the List article to the individual articles, in other words. -- PKtm 20:29, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
I've taken your points on board. Apologies for the jealousy jibe, it was in the heat of the moment. I'm aware that the list isn't attached to the episode articles but the polls and debate have been choosing between them. I was just trying to keep it simple. I think there should be individual episode articles for the following reasons. As i've already said, Lost is more than just a TV show, when compared with Prison Break or 24. It goes beyond just television and almost becomes a conspiracy theory. Do a search on Google for lost forum and see how much talk there is about individual episodes. There are whole forums for a single episode. Therefore, I contend that the level of detail on Wikipedia should match the level of interest there is for the show and it's mysterious content. I agree and commend the quality of the individual lists and accept they are a higher standard than the individual episode articles. However, I do not think that there is enough information in those two lists. In order to actively discuss theories and predictions about the show you need a lot of information at your disposal. The two lists are not helpful for this purpose. Neither are they helpful to a person scanning the page to find out what happened in a particular article - they're too long. In fact, after reading the discussion pages on the other two lists I have found that certain episodes (e.g. the pilot) have had to be cut down in order to keep the uniformity of the article. I think this is unacceptable. Clearly said information was important but couldn't be used. Individual episode articles solve this problem. Overall on this point, I feel that due to the unique nature of Lost and the vaying levels of detail needed for each episode, individual articles would be beneficial. Onto your second point. I agree the quality of individual articles is low. I also agree that considerable effort has gone into the other two lists. The two aren't, however, mutually exclusive. The contributors to the others can move their synopsis' over and expand on them. Refusing to contribute is sad to say the least. As a new contributor I am willing to help improve these individual articles with help from others. Remember, the Encyclopedia Britannica doesn't not create pages because of the work involved and nor should we. Sure, people are going to be disheartened that the original lists will be lost but if they helped with the individual articles we can have a Lost database (so to speak) that was extremely beneficial to avid Lost fans/conspiracy theorists and new viewers alike. --Gary Fothergill 20:58, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
We are in a deadlock. The arguments for both systems are equally supported, so I would like to request a Mediator. I'd like to see what people think before I put in a request first. -- Wikipedical 21:26, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
Everyone has equally valid opinions on this subject so I think mediation would be a good idea. --Gary Fothergill 22:35, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
- As one of the "patrollers" of the main Lost article, I'd just like to add that much as though I'd love to spend my days doing my bit to ensure the individual episode articles are kept up to scratch, I do have a life away from my computer! (Don't forget we're talking 50-plus articles here: if I had all those on my watchlist, before long I'd be seriously questioning my sanity.) IMO, the argument that Lost on Wikipedia needs the same phenomenal amount of detail that is already available elsewhere on the Web is specious. Yes, it is a popular show and demands substantial Wiki coverage, but not to the extent that every word of every script is analysed to the nth degree — that's what fansites are for. Chris 42 22:40, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
- The argument that "the main people who maintain these articles want to keep them a certain way", doesn't carry much weight with me, as it strikes me as a clear violation of WP:OWN. Nobody "owns" articles on Wikipedia. If articles get more traffic, then that means that more eyes are looking at them, and changes are going to be instituted by the community. Yes, some will be good and some will be bad, but I don't feel that we should avoid making any article on Wikipedia simply because someone says, "I don't want it to show up on my watchlist." And yes, I did pay attention to the argument about how the main stakeholders went on some kind of a strike to make a point about how the quality of some articles suffered, but I draw a different conclusion from the situation -- I look at the fact that the forking of the articles was already a major problem, as it made it difficult for any one person to try and keep both articles updated. If the forking problem can be addressed by maintaining only one major article per episode, I think it will be much easier to maintain. I also think that if every single "major stakeholder" of the Lost articles were to suddently drop off the face of the planet (or onto some remote computer-less island somewhere...), that the Wikipedia Lost articles would still mysteriously continue to grow and adapt. Maybe not as smoothly or as quickly, but ultimately I think the amount of attention on the subject would work just as it does for the thousands of other articles on Wikipedia -- community consensus, among editors who communicate with good intentions and in good faith, tends to produce quality content. --Elonka 23:07, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
- I don't think anyone is arguing that we shouldn't do this because the regular editors don't want it. Nor is anyone arguing against this because they don't want to put it on their watchlist. We're arguing that because of the massive amount of articles, there aren't enough people to watch them, whether or not we "go on strike". In theory, having episode articles is a good idea. But in practice, it doesn't work. We have an ongoing project (that I really, really wish people would work on) to develop a more concise season page for season 2. We already did this for Season 1, and while it has grown in size since we put it up, I really think that it's the best way. I invite you to look at Episodes of Lost (season 1). Then, I invite you to look at the episode pages for all the individual articles of Season 1. I don't know how much you follow Lost, but if you do, you'll notice that many of these pages flagrantly violate the Original Research guidelines, ridiculously more so than the sections of Episodes of Lost (season 1). At this point in time, there aren't enough editors to mantain these pages, even if every one of us participated. Sure, it might look neater and be more aesthetically pleasing, but you have to ask yourself if we really want to replace a massive article that has a good number of errors with a bunch of medium-sized articles that among themselves have hundreds of errors. Maybe it would be more worthwhile just to reduce our season articles in size. Another thing worth noting is that on these episode pages, large errors and even vandalism can probably go unnoticed for weeks on the less popular pages without anyone fixing it, whereas something like that would never happen with a season article. --Kahlfin 01:49, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
- Thanks for explaining. I'm trying really hard to understand your point of view, and I think that calm discussion is a very very good thing. :) For my part, I don't see it as a problem if an article has errors in it for a certain period of time. I routinely participate in the editing of hundreds of articles on Wikipedia. I have over a thousand articles on my watchlist, and every week I make it a point to scan for a few articles in some subject area that I've never been involved in, just to kind of glance through and see how I can help. I spend a lot of time at Category:Category needed, doing my best to whittle down the list. :) Anyway, as I poke around Wikipedia's million-plus articles, I routinely see articles that have errors, or articles that need cleanup, or articles that are vanity, POV, etc. etc. Many of them are in nooks and crannies where the articles only get a couple edits every few months. One part of me says, "Eww, must fix everything, now!" Another part says, "Go with the flow." Overall, the Wikipedia system works well. If an article isn't getting a lot of edits, it probably means that there isn't much attention on it. If there's a lot of attention, it's going to get more edits (just look at The Da Vinci Code, heh). So if a Lost article gets tucked away and isn't getting a lot of attention, I don't see that as a problem, because it means that not many people are reading it anyway. If there's an error on it, well, it'll get fixed eventually, by someone who does read it. Given a choice between one lonnnng article with dozens of different subsections though, or several smaller articles that are more focused, I'll generally vote for the individualized articles. And in the case of Lost, where synopses are going to be longer than usual because they have to be (since we don't entirely know what's going on!), I still strongly feel that individual articles for each episode is the way to go. Now as for whether the "hub" article is an "all series" list or "by season" list, I'd personally vote for "by season", but I'm more open on that one. --Elonka 21:38, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
- That's an interesting point. However, I disagree with the statement that we should "go with the flow". Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, and like Britannica or Grolier, every single article within it should be held to certain standards. In my view, the fact that there are many articles within Wikipedia that have many errors or are blatantly POV only happens because Wikipedia doesn't have enough editors, or because not enough Wikipedians want to edit those articles. I don't think this is the "Wikipedia system", I think that this is the way Wikipedia happens to work under circumstances that are not ideal, and I don't think it's what Wikipedia is meant to be at all. In my opinion, we as Wikipedians should try to make sure that no article that we encounter has errors in it. Of course, none of us have the time an energy to single-handedly do this. But that doesn't mean we can't try. I think that under no circumstances should we actually support errors in articles --Kahlfin 03:57, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
- Thanks for explaining. I'm trying really hard to understand your point of view, and I think that calm discussion is a very very good thing. :) For my part, I don't see it as a problem if an article has errors in it for a certain period of time. I routinely participate in the editing of hundreds of articles on Wikipedia. I have over a thousand articles on my watchlist, and every week I make it a point to scan for a few articles in some subject area that I've never been involved in, just to kind of glance through and see how I can help. I spend a lot of time at Category:Category needed, doing my best to whittle down the list. :) Anyway, as I poke around Wikipedia's million-plus articles, I routinely see articles that have errors, or articles that need cleanup, or articles that are vanity, POV, etc. etc. Many of them are in nooks and crannies where the articles only get a couple edits every few months. One part of me says, "Eww, must fix everything, now!" Another part says, "Go with the flow." Overall, the Wikipedia system works well. If an article isn't getting a lot of edits, it probably means that there isn't much attention on it. If there's a lot of attention, it's going to get more edits (just look at The Da Vinci Code, heh). So if a Lost article gets tucked away and isn't getting a lot of attention, I don't see that as a problem, because it means that not many people are reading it anyway. If there's an error on it, well, it'll get fixed eventually, by someone who does read it. Given a choice between one lonnnng article with dozens of different subsections though, or several smaller articles that are more focused, I'll generally vote for the individualized articles. And in the case of Lost, where synopses are going to be longer than usual because they have to be (since we don't entirely know what's going on!), I still strongly feel that individual articles for each episode is the way to go. Now as for whether the "hub" article is an "all series" list or "by season" list, I'd personally vote for "by season", but I'm more open on that one. --Elonka 21:38, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
- I don't think anyone is arguing that we shouldn't do this because the regular editors don't want it. Nor is anyone arguing against this because they don't want to put it on their watchlist. We're arguing that because of the massive amount of articles, there aren't enough people to watch them, whether or not we "go on strike". In theory, having episode articles is a good idea. But in practice, it doesn't work. We have an ongoing project (that I really, really wish people would work on) to develop a more concise season page for season 2. We already did this for Season 1, and while it has grown in size since we put it up, I really think that it's the best way. I invite you to look at Episodes of Lost (season 1). Then, I invite you to look at the episode pages for all the individual articles of Season 1. I don't know how much you follow Lost, but if you do, you'll notice that many of these pages flagrantly violate the Original Research guidelines, ridiculously more so than the sections of Episodes of Lost (season 1). At this point in time, there aren't enough editors to mantain these pages, even if every one of us participated. Sure, it might look neater and be more aesthetically pleasing, but you have to ask yourself if we really want to replace a massive article that has a good number of errors with a bunch of medium-sized articles that among themselves have hundreds of errors. Maybe it would be more worthwhile just to reduce our season articles in size. Another thing worth noting is that on these episode pages, large errors and even vandalism can probably go unnoticed for weeks on the less popular pages without anyone fixing it, whereas something like that would never happen with a season article. --Kahlfin 01:49, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
- The argument that "the main people who maintain these articles want to keep them a certain way", doesn't carry much weight with me, as it strikes me as a clear violation of WP:OWN. Nobody "owns" articles on Wikipedia. If articles get more traffic, then that means that more eyes are looking at them, and changes are going to be instituted by the community. Yes, some will be good and some will be bad, but I don't feel that we should avoid making any article on Wikipedia simply because someone says, "I don't want it to show up on my watchlist." And yes, I did pay attention to the argument about how the main stakeholders went on some kind of a strike to make a point about how the quality of some articles suffered, but I draw a different conclusion from the situation -- I look at the fact that the forking of the articles was already a major problem, as it made it difficult for any one person to try and keep both articles updated. If the forking problem can be addressed by maintaining only one major article per episode, I think it will be much easier to maintain. I also think that if every single "major stakeholder" of the Lost articles were to suddently drop off the face of the planet (or onto some remote computer-less island somewhere...), that the Wikipedia Lost articles would still mysteriously continue to grow and adapt. Maybe not as smoothly or as quickly, but ultimately I think the amount of attention on the subject would work just as it does for the thousands of other articles on Wikipedia -- community consensus, among editors who communicate with good intentions and in good faith, tends to produce quality content. --Elonka 23:07, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
- As one of the "patrollers" of the main Lost article, I'd just like to add that much as though I'd love to spend my days doing my bit to ensure the individual episode articles are kept up to scratch, I do have a life away from my computer! (Don't forget we're talking 50-plus articles here: if I had all those on my watchlist, before long I'd be seriously questioning my sanity.) IMO, the argument that Lost on Wikipedia needs the same phenomenal amount of detail that is already available elsewhere on the Web is specious. Yes, it is a popular show and demands substantial Wiki coverage, but not to the extent that every word of every script is analysed to the nth degree — that's what fansites are for. Chris 42 22:40, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
- Wikipedia is not a fansite. It is not our purpose to serve all the needs of "avid Lost fans/conspiracy theorists", as was expressed above. Sites like [Lostpedia] exist to admirably fill that need. -- PKtm 23:02, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
I'd better clarify what I mean before this goes further. By alluding to the fansites I was not suggesting that Wikipedia contain all that information. However, there needs to be sufficient information about what happened in the episode, speculating about what different scenes mean, etc. has no place on the episode page. Say, for example, there is a discussion on a fansite about a long running theory. A person may need to refer back to a particular episode to clarify what actually happened. People don't record the episodes and unless you have the DVD (and can be bothered to fire it up) you're going to reach for the internet. The current episode synopsis' are too short to help such a person. It tries to be a short look at the episode for casual browsers and a long enough article for avid fans - it fails at both. --Gary Fothergill 23:08, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
- You say that the episode summaries right now are too short to help someone researching a theory? How so? I don't see that the current summaries leave out any necessary information. Whether they're sufficient or not depends on the theory being researched. If the theory is something like "What Locke is wearing in every episode reflects the state of affairs on the island", then they're not sufficient, nor should they be. We can only have so much information, and I think that what we have right now is adecquate. If you don't agree, please cite some examples. --Kahlfin 19:38, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
- Are we gonna follow the poll or what? the "List of Lost episodes" option won, are we gonna go through with it? Season 3 will start in little over two weeks, something will have to be done. --The monkeyhate 12:22, 17 September 2006 (UTC)
- Check out some of the discussion below. In addition, take a look at the mediation case page. -- Wikipedical 16:36, 17 September 2006 (UTC)
What Happened To The International Airdates of Lost Article?
I'm just wondering where the international airdates of Lost article is. I came on here in early May and the article was still there, and when I go to old edits of the article, it includes the link, but it just redirects to the current page. What happened? Did someone delete it? 210.50.189.83 08:27, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
It was deleted, see the same raised topic above [1], and here's a link to the AfD page. [2]. :) Ss112 08:35, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
Alternative to Wikipedia for film/TV articles
For anyone who feels that fair use is being interpreted too strictly on Wikipedia, you are free to copy Wikipedia content and edit at http://www.tvwiki.tv/wiki/Main_Page . Arniep 22:45, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
Plot in subarticles
I personally find it irritating that the way the subplots are depicted on the show is not mirrored in the article layout. It's not faithful to the show -- we should not just honour the plot details, but the way it is presented to us as well. Dysprosia 11:39, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
Request for mediation
I have just filed a Request for Mediation to help resolve our consensus problem. The page is at Wikipedia:Requests for mediation#List of Lost episodes vs. Episodes of Lost (season 2). For interested editors: 'please be aware and for those who may be interested in joining in the mediation please add yourselves.' -- Wikipedical 01:11, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
- while your at it can some one see what to do about the pictures --mo-- (Talk | #info | ) 02:39, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
I don't understand what any of this 'request for mediation' means exactly, if there is a place where the mediators are going to be discussing and hearing the arguments, I'd like to know so I can post my vote/opinion (if that's even how it works). That request page doesnt even have a link to the previous straw poll discussions which went on forever, that is a very important piece of info to help them in the decision. Also, I thought mediators should be people that have nothing to do with these pages, shouldnt it be a bunch of people that are unrelated and come in and evaluate both arguments to decide what the consensus is (or what the best decision is under no consensus). By the look of that page, it didnt seem that way. Btw, how long do these mediations usually take? Also, I second Mo's request for someone to include the picture debate, I'd like to see some law-abiding admins/mediators discuss the issue. ArgentiumOutlaw 03:35, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
From what i'm aware (bearing in mind i'm new) if you wish to contribute to the arguments add yourself to the list on the page linked to. It's not possible to observer because the mediation is done in private. The mediators are unconnected with the issue and will be neutral. There is a team of mediators for this reason. --Gary Fothergill 10:30, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
The mediation request [3] was rejected, although no reason appears to have been given [4].
I don't really know the procedure so I'll let a more experienced editor take action. Tomcage9 14:33, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
- Edit: My best guess is because User:Leflyman, User:Danflave and User:ArgentiumOutlaw didn't agree to mediate.
- I'm not sure why I was supposed to be drawn into this "mediation"; I haven't been involved in the ongoing discussion (as one might note by this being my first comment here). Back in February, on another Lost Talk page I stated my original feelings about individual episode articles. Seeing the mess they've turned into, my opinion has drifted the other way. While I'm officially staying neutral, I would prefer that editors stop trying to turn what should be encyclopedia-type articles into fansite-type pages. Those who are interested in detailed play-by-play for Lost have many other places to look and contribute, outside of Wikipedia.--LeflymanTalk 08:12, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
- First of all, I've been away for several days and I dont have time to go through a 14 day mediation of repetitive crap. Second of all, had we agreed, the conclusion would have been the same as the straw poll discussion, which is exactly why we needed a third party to mediate (hence defeating the purpose of asking me and other lost editors to do the mediation). If the issue needs to be resolved, it must be done by a third party, I've discussed the issue all I'm going to discuss it. ArgentiumOutlaw 23:25, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
- ArgentiumOutlaw, I think you should probably review the Wikipedia:Mediation page. You're incorrect in thinking that "you and other Lost editors" were going to do the mediation. -- PKtm 00:03, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
- The person who commented on my talk page said "indicate your agreement or refusal to mediate." After reading the actual Wikipedia:Mediation page, I think the word 'Disputant' is a more correct word to have used. Also, that mediation page is pretty badly written and put together. Many of the sections overlap on the information, and it is never explicitly stated what happens in the actual mediation process. I can only assume that it means we are to present our points to the actual mediators and they will then take the time to decide. After reading that page, I can't help but feel that it's trying to keep some secrets from me. ArgentiumOutlaw 16:51, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
- ArgentiumOutlaw, I think you should probably review the Wikipedia:Mediation page. You're incorrect in thinking that "you and other Lost editors" were going to do the mediation. -- PKtm 00:03, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
- Guys, so far there's nothing here except for ed enforcing a pretty clear policy, and a bunch of fans protesting because they like the aesthetic value of the pictures. I'm coming to this as an outsider, with no great affiliation with either the show or ed. It doesn't look to me like this is worth all of the hullabaloo, and I haven't seen one compelling fair use rationale for the images. Generally we discourage against using fair use images in lists and things of that nature, because they don't meet the critical commentary threshhold. I can almost virtually guarantee that you are not going to win this one, as someone who has spent a lot of time in various copyright arguments on Wikipedia. Your time can probably be better spent elsewhere, just my recommendation. --Fastfission 00:45, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
What the are hell you talking about? The mediation request has nothing to do with Ed or the pictures, they are debating season articles vs. individual episode articles. I suggest you read read before you post! 88.109.129.10 10:10, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
- Actually, we did put the image issue under other issues, so I suggest that you reread your posts as well. -- Wikipedical 15:29, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
Anyways, what next? Can we compromise or will everyone still remain firm with their views on the episode issue? -- Wikipedical 15:29, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
- Update: the request for mediation [5] has been restored. We still need a few agreements if it is to proceed. Perhaps uninterested users can remove themselves from the list of parties? Is this allowed? Tomcage9 16:04, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
- it's back, ummm I liked the way that people from BOTH PARTIES (the episode list and the season list) where both fighting eddy to bring back the pictures,, ummm I still belive it's not fair! --mo-- (Talk | #info | ) 16:21, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
- Tomcage9, I'm confused. What do you mean about "uninterested users removing themselves to get a few agreements"? --Elonka 16:28, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
- Sorry if I wasn't clear, I just meant that if users such as User:ArgentiumOutlaw didn't want to be part of the mediation maybe the should remove themselves from the list of "Involved Parties". Sorry if I mis-understood the mediation process. Tomcage9 16:37, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
- Ah, I see. So you mean that any user who places their name under "Involved Parties", should also be sure to add their name in the section that says they agree to mediation, yes? That part can be confusing, I agree. As for why the request was rejected the first time, I think it was just an honest mistake on the part of the admins. The mediation requests before and after the Lost one were both rejected, and I think ours got included accidentally in the copy/paste. It has since been restored, so all should be well now. :) --Elonka 17:13, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
- Sorry if I wasn't clear, I just meant that if users such as User:ArgentiumOutlaw didn't want to be part of the mediation maybe the should remove themselves from the list of "Involved Parties". Sorry if I mis-understood the mediation process. Tomcage9 16:37, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
- Tomcage9, I'm confused. What do you mean about "uninterested users removing themselves to get a few agreements"? --Elonka 16:28, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
- it's back, ummm I liked the way that people from BOTH PARTIES (the episode list and the season list) where both fighting eddy to bring back the pictures,, ummm I still belive it's not fair! --mo-- (Talk | #info |
Update: our request was accepted. -- Wikipedical 19:20, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
- Those involved with the mediation should probably set a watch on the actual page it's been moved to: Wikipedia:Requests_for_mediation/Lost_episodes. --Elonka 01:52, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
separator lines
What's up with the really fat separator lines? Seems kinda ugly and a waste of space. Not sure how this renders in all browsers, but with no height defined it looks fine for me (Safari 2.0.3) -- Ned Scott 04:51, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
- the hight is defined, take a look
|- |colspan="6" height="5" bgcolor="#DBE9F4"| <!-- Putting in a nice space between episodes --> |-
- It looked much better when the pictures where around, take a look at this May 26th version --mo-- (Talk | #info | ) 23:37, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
- Nobody Doubts it looks Better before. However we are currently Arguing about whether the images are fair use and if we are allowed to have them. In the meantime This page has been Illegitimately protected. Protection is meant to stop an edit war, not to endorse a version. And if we had to protect the page without the images The least the could have done was Fix up the look of the page. Some Fair Use Police Take No considering of Page aesthetics Even after the Fair use pictures are removed. Its Annoying how some Admins/Arbitrators think they can get away with doing whatever they want to do in the name of Policy--E-Bod 04:45, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
- Oh, I know it's defined, but it just looks too thick to me. -- Ned Scott 05:21, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
For those of you without '/use of images' on your watch list
For those of you without Talk:List of Lost episodes/Use of images on your watch list, I would like to make a serious effort to actually get somewhere in this debate. I have posted a comment there to at least allow us to understand what is being debated there. Please add the talk sub-page to your watchlist and reply to my latest comments there. I'm only posting this message on the main talk page because it does not appear that everyone has '/use of images' on their watch list, so please continue the discussion there and not here. -- Ned Scott 00:48, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
- I Don't think the issue is people don't have the page on their watch list. My watch list is so long I could very easily miss it. The thing is People Just Don't Care anymore The page has been protected since 26 May 2006. The Admins are just trying to make a Point about fair use, or Every other admin does not want to cross the Person who blocked the page because he is an arbitrator. If an admin Undo one of Jimbo's Blocks it is almost certain desnoypeing. This issue has been talked to Death already--E-Bod 02:25, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
Table Formatting
I Agree with Ned Scott's Edit to make the Page with Adjustable [6]
Over the Prior [7]
Having the Page with Vary Is Definitely the way to go. If your Screen is small then It will automatically Fill what needs to be filed. If you make the window bigger or smaller it should accommodate this. If you have a big screen and do not like how the bars take up too much room you should not view the page on full screen. Normal articles have the images on the right Move with the page. Why should the rest of us have Most the image cut off. You should appreciate your full screen or not use all of it. Don't put on a sweater and say it is too hot. Take the sweater off. Set your window size to a page and adjust your text size for your computer if you have a problem. The page Should not be optimized for only one View setting. It should be dynamic and Self adjust to whatever Page size you are using. I shouldn't have to Scroll left and Right because on your screen the tables are too big. Because on mine they are too small. If you wish not to use the full screen Don't set your computer up to use the full screen.--E-Bod 22:10, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
- someone asked how does a large screen makes it different, well having a large screen = more pixels, and a table that goes across 2048 pixels is really really ugly (that's what happens when you have a table that goes 100%), the size should be set at this size and that's how it should stay --mo-- (Talk | #info | ) 04:58, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
- Liquid layouts makes usability very tricky, which is why I prefer static layouts. I use a 1680x1050 screen resolution, so when the table is stretched to 100%, the table data is smashed together, and it is very difficult to read. Jtrost (T | C | #) 11:08, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
- Wait a second... what kind of logic is this? MOST websites look horrible stretched out at those sizes. But you have a browser window, that you can re-size. Why do the rest of us have to suffer via poor use of space? The same formatting was applied to List of South Park episodes and no one complained there. This is a really petty complaint.. Large monitors, although becoming more popular, are the minority. And even when you use one, you can easily resize a browser window if something doesn't look right. More web browsers don't display Kanji (はじまりの鼓動) correctly, but many articles still use that. Technical limitations of this nature should not dictate article formatting. -- Ned Scott 19:58, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
- While I completely agree with your statement, I still think that a fixed layout at 775 is better. Whether we like it or not, the Wikipedia "column" is going to be there no matter what. I'm currently viewing this page on a 13-inch public monitor with who-knows-how-small resolution. With the dynamic (liquid) layout, the Wikipedia column creates this huge gray bar that stays on the side of the page no matter what, and as such, the rest of the page looks crushed in and too small, in my opinion, no matter what size and resolution you're viewing with. If there was some way to change this (I know you can change it by changing the User skin, but keep in mind that most people who visit pages are not Wikipedians and don't know how to do this), I would support the dynamic layout. But for now, I just think that the fixed layout looks neater. --Kahlfin 03:15, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
- Huge gray bar? I've checked the article using Internet Explorer, Firefox, and Safari, and I see no such bar. I've heard other comments about how some browsers render the tables, but this is the first time I've heard about the gray bar. I'm thinking this is not something the average reader is experiencing? -- Ned Scott 03:41, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
- No, I think you're just so used to Wikipedia that you don't notice it. When you're reading this comment, look to your left. You'll see the gray column that I'm talking about. At the top of the page, there's the Wikipedia logo. Under the logo, there are links to the main page, community portal, etc. But after all that stuff, there's just a gray bar that keeps going forever. In my browser, I usually just scroll so that the gray bar is out of my window. But when the table is being formatted for your window, it doesn't take the gray bar into account, and it squishes the table so that the gray bar and the actual List of Lost episodes both fit into your maximum window and you don't have to scroll. In my opinion, this makes the table look crushed and too narrow. --Kahlfin 05:01, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
- Ok, that should have NOTHING to do with how articles are formatted... -- Ned Scott 05:07, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
- I don't see what you're saying. Why not? People see it, right? We need to take it into account. Because of it, the table is too narrow with the current revision (in my opinion), at least from the way I'm looking at it. With the width fixed at 775, I can scroll so that the table takes up my whole window. Without it, I can't. --Kahlfin 05:41, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
- Ok, that should have NOTHING to do with how articles are formatted... -- Ned Scott 05:07, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
- No, I think you're just so used to Wikipedia that you don't notice it. When you're reading this comment, look to your left. You'll see the gray column that I'm talking about. At the top of the page, there's the Wikipedia logo. Under the logo, there are links to the main page, community portal, etc. But after all that stuff, there's just a gray bar that keeps going forever. In my browser, I usually just scroll so that the gray bar is out of my window. But when the table is being formatted for your window, it doesn't take the gray bar into account, and it squishes the table so that the gray bar and the actual List of Lost episodes both fit into your maximum window and you don't have to scroll. In my opinion, this makes the table look crushed and too narrow. --Kahlfin 05:01, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
- Huge gray bar? I've checked the article using Internet Explorer, Firefox, and Safari, and I see no such bar. I've heard other comments about how some browsers render the tables, but this is the first time I've heard about the gray bar. I'm thinking this is not something the average reader is experiencing? -- Ned Scott 03:41, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
- While I completely agree with your statement, I still think that a fixed layout at 775 is better. Whether we like it or not, the Wikipedia "column" is going to be there no matter what. I'm currently viewing this page on a 13-inch public monitor with who-knows-how-small resolution. With the dynamic (liquid) layout, the Wikipedia column creates this huge gray bar that stays on the side of the page no matter what, and as such, the rest of the page looks crushed in and too small, in my opinion, no matter what size and resolution you're viewing with. If there was some way to change this (I know you can change it by changing the User skin, but keep in mind that most people who visit pages are not Wikipedians and don't know how to do this), I would support the dynamic layout. But for now, I just think that the fixed layout looks neater. --Kahlfin 03:15, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
- Wait a second... what kind of logic is this? MOST websites look horrible stretched out at those sizes. But you have a browser window, that you can re-size. Why do the rest of us have to suffer via poor use of space? The same formatting was applied to List of South Park episodes and no one complained there. This is a really petty complaint.. Large monitors, although becoming more popular, are the minority. And even when you use one, you can easily resize a browser window if something doesn't look right. More web browsers don't display Kanji (はじまりの鼓動) correctly, but many articles still use that. Technical limitations of this nature should not dictate article formatting. -- Ned Scott 19:58, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
- someone asked how does a large screen makes it different, well having a large screen = more pixels, and a table that goes across 2048 pixels is really really ugly (that's what happens when you have a table that goes 100%), the size should be set at this size and that's how it should stay --mo-- (Talk | #info |
Hey Trost "This user has a dual monitor configuration." wikipedia is not Optimized for your special Dual Monitor configuration. If you want To Customize your layout please do so using Greasemonkey. Also Please read my Post Before you make new ones. I already suggested you just use a smaller window. There is no reason I need to Scroll to see the whole page because you don't want to shrink your own window down.--E-Bod 20:12, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
Table formatting straw poll
Alright, I know that polls are evil, but I just want to get quick and dirty feedback on this issue. Note, this straw poll should not be used as a strong reason to do one thing or another, it's just one method of feedback.
Basically, how should this article have the width of it's table's formatted?-- Ned Scott 05:30, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
By percentage
Using a range of 90 to 100%, making the table fill up more of the browser window at any size, as it does on this edit.
- Ned Scott 05:30, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
- Strong Support Wikipedia Articles should be Optimized so that that Everybody has the option to View the page Properly regardless of their configurations. If you want the tables to take up less room because you are on full screen then switch to window mode and don't use the full screen. It seems like an common sense "Wikipedia:Don't Optimise page layout for only your configurations. Let the rest of us use the page
- I can view the page at several different window sizes properly on percent. Only one Window size works optimally for Fixed numbers. Don't be selfish. You are using a really rare configuration.--E-Bod 18:30, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
Fixed width
Fixed width of 775, the table stays at this width and is independent from the size of the user's browser window, as it does on this edit.
- Kahlfin 03:15, 19 June 2006 (UTC) (see above comment)
Sorry
hey guys, I notice that many of you play with this page as you like, remove the pictures, add text, put rumors, fix the width, well I just want to say that the page now looks like shit, and you know what, I don't care! cuz once the third season starts, and many, many people start looking at this page, many things will be changed, so have fun with it now, cuz it's gonna change later, peace, and get off the computers guys, it's the summer ! --mo-- (Talk | #info | 
) 18:21, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
- Hey, I still need something to take up time when I'm sick of doing work. And please be civil. Lumaga 18:50, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
- Many of us or many anonymous users who don't know standard procedure? Because there's nothing we can do about those. And by the way, if you think that this list is bad for rumors, you should look at all those individual articles. --Kahlfin 23:56, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
Where are the pictures?
Not long ago, there were pictures for the Season DVDs and each individual episode. What happened to them? --SilvaStorm 11:08, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
Description copvios
I notice {{Lost policy}} states "Information on this page will be limited to official broadcasts, information taken from the ABC website, official LOST websites, official episode descriptions, and interviews with cast/producers/writers/directors." This seems to have confused people into thinking that we should copy and paste information from these sources (just taking a quick look, the summary of Three Minutes is a section of the tv.com summary). These copyright violations are not acceptable. All episodes which have aired should have their summaries written from scratch. ed g2s • talk 11:21, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
- Agreed. Everything should be paraphrased unless a source is cited. The policy simply states that information cannot be taken from unofficial sources. It does not condone taking information word for word from these sources. In addition, TV.com is not included in the policy, and any information taken from it that isn't verified by an official source is, in fact, in violation of the policy. --Kahlfin 05:12, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
Screenshots stay
Red Alert -- Unless you provide a valid good reason below the screenshots STAY! Matthew Fenton [t/c] 14:08, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
- Because the screenshots are not (currently) being used for critical commentary, they are being used gratuitously for decoration. --bainer (talk) 15:18, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
- Decoration? I see no decoration. Matthew Fenton [t/c] 16:01, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
- Incorrect, they are being used to identify the episodes. If you find it decretive, that's you, but it is NOT why they were put into the article, and it is not the primary function they are serving -- Ned Scott 20:28, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
- I haven't weighed in much on this whole controversy, because I can truly see both sides, but I do have to say that an ultimatum like the Red Alert above is completely antithetical to the spirit of Wikipedia, and it's also dismissive of the copious body of discussion that's already occurred on this topic. This kind of approach fuels edit wars and ultimately leads to their perpetrators being blocked. -- PKtm 16:07, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
Red Alert means my photon torpedoes and phasers are ready :-) there doesnt have to be an edit war if a good reason is provided why he is afraid of the pictures. Matthew Fenton [t/c] 16:12, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
- Perhaps you should read Talk:List of Lost episodes/Use of images and show a little more maturity. ed g2s • talk 16:15, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
- I have to agree with Ed right now, that was not the most mature move to progress this issue. -- Wikipedical 16:41, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
Maybe not, however the facts still are: the images have a use, the images provide critical commentery and also it doesnt hurt him to have them. I can not help the fact he has an image phoebia. Matthew Fenton [t/c] 16:54, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
- Matthew, I understand you are frustrated with this, as I am as well, but this is not the way we'll get the images back. Be patient, focus your arguments here on the talk page, and you will see results. -- Ned Scott 20:34, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
Protected
Because of actions such as those of Matthew Fenton above, I have protected this page. (Note that although I have been involved in the discussion on this issue, this is not a content dispute but a dispute about the copyright status of content, and thus I don't consider my protecting the article to be outside the protection policy.) --bainer (talk) 16:26, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
- I feel this is an abuse of power as you chose the version you want to protect. Matthew Fenton [t/c] 16:27, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
- This is a dispute about the copyright status of images, and not a content dispute, thus it is entirely appropriate to protect the version over which there are no copyright doubts. If you wish to have the page unprotected, see Wikipedia:Requests for page protection. --bainer (talk) 16:36, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
- No offense, but I think this is an endorsement of the current version. 154.20.217.225 00:32, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
- Um, see m:The Wrong Version. -- PKtm 07:50, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
- No offense, but I think this is an endorsement of the current version. 154.20.217.225 00:32, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
- This is a dispute about the copyright status of images, and not a content dispute, thus it is entirely appropriate to protect the version over which there are no copyright doubts. If you wish to have the page unprotected, see Wikipedia:Requests for page protection. --bainer (talk) 16:36, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
- You protected the page because of one user? While I don't think that's outside the policy, it seems a little extreme. Most of us who disagree with you will engage in rational discussion without edit wars. I mean, if it only takes one user's actions to protect a page, is this page going to be protected everytime some anonymous vandal makes an account? --Kahlfin 22:46, 30 June 2006 (UTC)
- I think numerous users have tried to restore the images since it was last unprotected. ed g2s • talk 23:53, 30 June 2006 (UTC)
- Only a handful, and even some of us pro-fair-use-image editors reverted back to the no image version. -- Ned Scott 02:33, 1 July 2006 (UTC)
- I agree with Ned and Kahlfin that it seems extreme, but I also would point out that User:MatthewFenton was obviously bent on restoring the screenshots over and over again, as were various anons (most likely sockpuppets, but no matter). I personally reverted his insertions several times, even though I'm relatively neutral on the controversy, but he was dogged about reinsertion, using all sorts of puffed-up Star Trek rhetoric that indicated (to me and obviously to the admins) that he was simply not going to back down. Personally, I would prefer that there be a swiftly applied user-specific block (and relatively long-term, too) on people behaving like that, rather than a protection of the page. Any reaction to that proposal from the admins who protected the page? -- PKtm 19:36, 1 July 2006 (UTC)
- Correction, Stargate Atlantis also they where not sock puppets.. Probably just some anons who believed in what i believe in. (Do a whois on them there not from my isp) Matthew Fenton (contribs) 20:17, 1 July 2006 (UTC)
- Not necessarily your sockpuppets, but unlikely to be "some anons" who stumbled upon the article. ed g2s • talk 22:07, 1 July 2006 (UTC)
- I agree with Ned and Kahlfin that it seems extreme, but I also would point out that User:MatthewFenton was obviously bent on restoring the screenshots over and over again, as were various anons (most likely sockpuppets, but no matter). I personally reverted his insertions several times, even though I'm relatively neutral on the controversy, but he was dogged about reinsertion, using all sorts of puffed-up Star Trek rhetoric that indicated (to me and obviously to the admins) that he was simply not going to back down. Personally, I would prefer that there be a swiftly applied user-specific block (and relatively long-term, too) on people behaving like that, rather than a protection of the page. Any reaction to that proposal from the admins who protected the page? -- PKtm 19:36, 1 July 2006 (UTC)
- Only a handful, and even some of us pro-fair-use-image editors reverted back to the no image version. -- Ned Scott 02:33, 1 July 2006 (UTC)
- I think numerous users have tried to restore the images since it was last unprotected. ed g2s • talk 23:53, 30 June 2006 (UTC)
- Ahh yes, it's good to see admins assuming good faith ;) Modulus86 13:11, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
- Yeah, seriously. What gives you any inclination, Ed, that these are sock puppets? You're accusation that these are the sockpuppets of someone here is just as ridiculous as me accusing them of being YOUR sockpuppets that you created so you could make it look like they were our sockpuppets. Unless you have any evidence that these edits were made by someone involved in this discussion, please refrain from this blatant speculation. -- Kahlfin 22:03, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
- Ahh yes, it's good to see admins assuming good faith ;) Modulus86 13:11, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
I hate to get viewed as jumping to Ed's defense, here, because I know he's not exactly popular here on this talk page. But I do feel obligated to point out that I (not he) was the one who first mentioned sockpuppets, using the phrase "most likely sockpuppets, but no matter." Obviously, it did matter. Yes, it was speculation, but not entirely ill-founded. Take a look at the specific pattern of edits, particularly the insertions by User:MatthewFenton, the rapid-fire reverts by myself and others, and then suddenly, in the same time frame, an anon jumping in to do the same reinsertion of the images.
# (cur) (last) 16:09, 27 June 2006 159.101.15.102 (Talk) (rv)
# (cur) (last) 16:08, 27 June 2006 PKtm (Talk | contribs) (rv)
# (cur) (last) 16:05, 27 June 2006 159.101.15.102 (Talk) (rv)
# (cur) (last) 16:03, 27 June 2006 Ed g2s (Talk | contribs) m (Reverted edits by MatthewFenton (talk) to last version by Rillian)
# (cur) (last) 16:00, 27 June 2006 MatthewFenton (Talk | contribs) (rv - 2nd)
Let's use common sense. Sure, it's speculation: but if it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, etc.... In any case, please let's not get riled up at Ed, at least not for this. Vent your anger at me about the sockpuppet issue, if you must, but I'd prefer that we all keep to the issue at hand....
-- PKtm 22:57, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
- That's a good point. I didn't see the times of the vandalism, but it's definitely a good reason to suspect sockpuppetry, and thus the speculation is not unfounded. --Kahlfin 06:20, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
All the Best Cowboys Have Daddy Issues
The episode "All the Best Cowboys Have Daddy Issues" is wrongly linked, but I can't edit it because of the damn protection. Anyone care to do it? --The monkeyhate 18:20, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
RfC on fair use images in lists
As suggested by some other people here, I have started a new page to dicuss the general issue of fair use images in lists. It can be found here: Wikipedia:Fair use/Fair use images in lists. Please join the discussion if you are interested in this issue. --bainer (talk) 05:04, 2 July 2006 (UTC)
- Thank you for starting the RfC and posting the notices in numerous places for responses. -LeflymanTalk 23:03, 2 July 2006 (UTC)
- The discussion has stagnated and no consensus has been drawn. I call for restoring the images since the bainer, ed g2s, abu, et al haven't been able to garnish the support to make a consensus against fair use. Cburnett 00:49, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
- I also call for the restoration of the images, in fact i will file a unprotect rewuest soon. MatthewFenton (talk • contribs) 05:52, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
- The discussion has stagnated and no consensus has been drawn. I call for restoring the images since the bainer, ed g2s, abu, et al haven't been able to garnish the support to make a consensus against fair use. Cburnett 00:49, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
Just a suggestion...
One of the main arguements for the removal of the screenshots was that they don't identify or critically comment on the episode in question. Would they be allowed if they were more relevant to the episode summary? For example, Season 1 Episode 1 could have a screenshot of Jack and Kate tending to the wounded or of them trekking into the jungle to find the cockpit. Episode 2 looks good to me because it has a screenshot of Sawyer actually shooting a polar bear which is mentioned. Episode 3 could have Jack discovering the secret about Kate or Michael warning Locke. I would be able to do all of the screenshots for season 2 and most of season 1 probably but I wouldn't want to do it if they were going to be removed straight away. Opinions?
Also, I think this page needs to be archived. It's 242 KB long. Mahahahaneapneap 10:43, 2 July 2006 (UTC)
- The problem with archiving is that the vast majority of this discussion page is relevant to the two major ongoing discussions of this article: images, and indivudual episode articles and list vs. season articles. Tomcage9--Talk 19:59, 2 July 2006 (UTC)
- They could be archived by discussion topic, as I had initiated with Talk:List of Lost episodes/Use of images. The discussion about image usage apparent returned here when some editors became frustrated with lack of response.--LeflymanTalk 22:36, 2 July 2006 (UTC)
- The problem with archiving is that the vast majority of this discussion page is relevant to the two major ongoing discussions of this article: images, and indivudual episode articles and list vs. season articles. Tomcage9--Talk 19:59, 2 July 2006 (UTC)
- Good idea, I could help with Season 1 and msot of season 2. Matthew Fenton (contribs) 11:00, 2 July 2006 (UTC)
- Merely mentioning that a polar bear was shot in the episode does not really constitute critical commentary. Text discussing the event and its significance to the series as a whole, as a critique of the themes of the show, or an encyclopaedic discussion of the themes of the show, is far more likely to constitute critical commentary. The image would then have to illustrate what the text was actually talking about. --bainer (talk) 11:25, 2 July 2006 (UTC)
End of Series?
Should we mention somewhere that the creators only want to do the show for 4-5 years, and then end the series with a movie? Morgan695 21:17, 6 July 2006 (UTC) Source: [8]
- No, This is the episode list not the Lost article. Matthew Fenton (contribs) 21:19, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
- Would be fine with official source. This does not include fansites, like lost-media.com. See this article's policy on including information here. Thanks. -- Wikipedical 21:21, 9 July 2006 (UTC)
Screenshot Proposal
Personally, I love the screenshots. I have no idea why anyone would want to delete them. Although the majority of us want to keep them, we are losing the fight right now. I suggest that we delete the screenshots from EVERY episode list on Wikipedia. Why, you might ask? Because then pretty much everyone will flip out and rise against this ridiculous idea of having Wikipedia episode lists without pictures. And then, finally, we will get our screencaps and dvd covers back! So start removing pictures from your favourite TV show pages, and know that you are helping for the greater good. Remember that I want the pictures back too. But if you guys think this is completely idiotic, then don't and comment on the stupidity. So far I did The Office, and I will wait to do more until people comment. 154.20.217.225 18:24, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
- I think it may be best stick to the non vandalism approach, if you want others to join in the debate leave a note at that episode guides talk page requesting support (-: Matthew Fenton (contribs) 18:49, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
- Is it vandalism? 154.20.217.225 19:01, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
- It would be in violation of WP:POINT (Don't disrupt Wikipeida to illustrate a point). --Maelwys 20:25, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
- I disagree. I think that the right thing should be done ALL lists, not just this one. The right thing is either taking the images off temporarily while we reach a decision or removing them permanently. It certainly isn't leaving them there when they may or may not be allowed. Mahahahaneapneap 21:24, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
- Hey also, anyone have an idea of when all of this is going to be finished? Not what will be the result, but when the dispute will finally be resolved? A couple weeks? A month? 4 months? A year? 154.20.217.225 19:04, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
- It would be in violation of WP:POINT (Don't disrupt Wikipeida to illustrate a point). --Maelwys 20:25, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
- I dont think anyones requested it to be unprotected. Matthew Fenton (contribs) 19:07, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
- Sorry, I had not read WP:POINT. 154.20.217.225 22:05, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
- Is it vandalism? 154.20.217.225 19:01, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
Does anybody else think that the version with pictures should be protected, as all other lists in Wikipedia are right now? I do not mean that it is the version that should stay in the end, but either all lists should have pictures removed or all of them have pictures on until the discussion is over. --Demon Hog 18:05, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
Episode 3.1 Title?
I've been hearing from some pretty credible sources that episode 3.1 is called "A Tale of Two Cities". Now of course, I won't add this info as I haven't heard it confirmed by the producers, but has anyone heard this title, and did the producers ever say anything about it? ShadowUltra 16:33, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
- Please cite your "pretty credible sources" and provide links to these articles. Keep in mind this article has its own policy on citing sources, see here. -- Wikipedical 17:06, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
- I'm guessing the title being announced officially during the LOST panel, at the recent comic-con convention would be pretty credible? That was the reason I added it in the first place. I did provide a link to the Aint It Cool article which had a rundown of the LOST panel, but for some reason, someone removed it. The article is here if you want to read it. dbalsdon 16:09, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
- Yes, anything the producers/writers say is credible, however Aint It cool News isn't exactly the most reliable source. I added a reference to USA Today, which is a reliable source. Please be more cautious about future episodes from now on. Jtrost (T | C | #) 16:16, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
- I'm guessing the title being announced officially during the LOST panel, at the recent comic-con convention would be pretty credible? That was the reason I added it in the first place. I did provide a link to the Aint It Cool article which had a rundown of the LOST panel, but for some reason, someone removed it. The article is here if you want to read it. dbalsdon 16:09, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
Fair Use Link
What happened to the link to the discussion? --154.20.217.225 23:26, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
- There is a link to the 'fair use with images' in the archives section. -- Wikipedical 17:48, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
- We need a link to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fair_use/Fair_use_images_in_lists on this page. --Demon Hog 04:42, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
- Oops, that was my bad. {{WikiProject LOE}} had the link in there, but I had taken it out, forgetting that this specific article was still involved and needed to still link to those active discussions. -- Ned Scott 06:11, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
- We need a link to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fair_use/Fair_use_images_in_lists on this page. --Demon Hog 04:42, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
Further Instructions is legit
Futher Instructions is the title of the second episode of the third season
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0840616/
I think we can request unprotection. Thoughts? -- Wikipedical 00:03, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
- Doesn't matter, read the top of this talk page where it says:
- "Information on this page will be limited to official broadcasts, information taken from the ABC website, official LOST websites, official episode descriptions, and interviews with cast/producers/writers/directors.
- Information extrapolated from commercials or previews, or spoiler websites will NOT be included on this page. This includes unverified episode titles, plot elements or flashback information."
- 'nuff said. -- Ned Scott 00:23, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
- The titles / flashback characters have been UNOFFICIALLY released upto episode 4, but theres nothing you can do until the title / character is officially confirmed. It's the rules. Mtowers 21:36, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
- I'm afraid that IMDB.com is not a credible source due the fact that the majority of its information is obtained from the users themselves. SergeantBolt (t,c) 19:05, 16 September 2006 (UTC)
Specials/Recaps
What about the clip show that will air on Sept 27, 2006? [9] Fineric 18:36, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
- Also, the Lost Survival Guide - www.lost-media.com --154.20.217.225 02:48, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
Kiele Sanchez & Rodrigo Santoro
In an interview with executive producer Damon Lindelof by Kristin on E! Online, he stated that Sanchez and Santoro are contracted to recurr, and not star in the show as was originally thought by many (including Wikipedia). I cannot find the original interview page, but the information is at www.spoilerfix.com/lost and then go to the "General Season 3 spoilers" section. Just so you know. --154.20.217.225 16:25, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
Major Cleanup of Individual Lost Episodes
As I've read many of the discussions about season vs. individual episodes, I've noticed that one reason why the individual episodes are looked at with some doubt is because the pages might not be kept "up to standard". So I've taken it upon myself to go in and remove "crufty" elements of the individual episodes. Amost all 47 existing episodes so far have been added my watch list, and frankly, don't think it will be very hard to maintain them as most of the "crufty" elements have been removed already. Compared to most other Television episode pages, these are nearly perfect. Most episodes have been edited maybe 5 times since May or earlier, the older episodes have been even less often (and only really minor changes at that). Much of the text is exactly the same as the season articles, so the issue is less about validity, as it is about just maintaining them (50+ pages added to my watchlist is not a problem). The easiest thing to do when you see something that does not belong is to remove it instead of using it as evidence against having the pages. I thank those who did, as it was an easy way to know what to "fix", and those problems are gone. Radagast83 18:04, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
- Thanks for your great efforts here, Radagast. However, I feel you have missed the main point that I and other season article advocates have been making. Right now there are 47 episodes; eventually there will (most likely) be well over a hundred. As the DVDs come out, or as the show is syndicated, and as it finds new audiences wondering about all the hype, we get newfound enthusiasm from these new audiences. That leads them to Wikipedia, and then a sense of "oh, they left this out of the article, so I'll just add it". But more is not better, and each article can easily spin out of control without ongoing daily vigilance. Perhaps you feel up to doing that for 47 articles, but we'll see, particularly once the barrage of inevitable edits starts to hit in late September (upon the DVD release of Season 2) and early October, upon the start of Season 3. It can't be up to one individual; you'll get inundated. Anyway, that's been the point. -- PKtm 19:10, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
- I didn't miss the point. Hundreds of other shows have individual pages with little to no issues (some need quite a bit more work than Lost pages, and even they are acceptable in terms of Wikipedia's guidelines). I feel you're overblowing the situation in terms of how hard it will be to handle. Tens of Thousands of regular "run of the mill" articles have the exact issues you're pointing out every single day, even Featured Articles have problems. They get worked out when people actually work together to make Wikipedia better. Vandals will always exist on wikipedia, and for the most part the people who say "oh, they left this out of the article, so I'll just add it" won't continue to add something that is blatnatly crufty and/or incorrectly placed in a single article any more than someone would continue to edit an entire huge season article, if they do without any explanation, they'll get banned, that's how it works. Season one's articles have had almost no activity since they were created, about 6 months ago. The Pilot has maybe 75 edits... quite a small number for a popular item, other episodes, such as Numbers (Lost) has even less, around 20, thats right, 20 edits since March. As with ALL wikipedia articles, if people don't pay attention to them, things will most likely get added that are either not factual, or are poorly worded, happens every day. On a side note I don't see how it's ANY different from a full season article describing all the episodes, as there are plenty of people who edit those pages to keep them correct. You're assuming that I, myself, am the only one monitoring these pages. Radagast83 21:56, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
- Yes, I am in fact assuming that, because that's indeed what the facts basically indicate. Keeping things to one article per season is much more manageable, which is why every long-standing Lost editor here favors that solution. There continue to be countless examples of fancruft intruding into the episode articles, and it doesn't tend to get reverted. You corrected the ones I pointed out, but not many more, and not ongoing. Take a look at yesterday's edits to Adrift (Lost), for example. I'm not "overblowing" the situation, because if you look at it dispassionately, it's pretty clear that these episode articles simply ignore Wikipedia's goals and tenets. And that's true of lots of these other shows you mention as well (South Park, The Simpsons, etc.). It's simply a bad idea. -- PKtm 20:05, 9 September 2006 (UTC)
- Every long-standing Lost editor does not favor season articles. And just because a few elders on Wikipedia favor conserving an outdated system on Wikipedia does not mean it is better. Their opinions are not facts. Let's keep this sort of discussion in the Mediation case. Radagast83 should continue editing. -- Wikipedical 21:07, 9 September 2006 (UTC)
- The opinion of a select few should not take precedence over other editors, regardless of whether they've edited Lost articles once or one thousand times. About 1/5th of the edits I made to the Lost articles were from your suggestions (or evidence against individual articles, depending on the POV). The dozens of other edits I've made have not. I have many more interests than just Lost that take up my time here and elsewhere. And I am looking at it dispassionately. There are other editors working on the pages, and clearly there are also editors out there who read the articles but don't want to edit them. If there is a problem, tag it with a citation notice. Are they perfect? Of course not, very few articles in the whole of Wikipedia are. Radagast83 08:00, 10 September 2006 (UTC)
- Every long-standing Lost editor does not favor season articles. And just because a few elders on Wikipedia favor conserving an outdated system on Wikipedia does not mean it is better. Their opinions are not facts. Let's keep this sort of discussion in the Mediation case. Radagast83 should continue editing. -- Wikipedical 21:07, 9 September 2006 (UTC)
- Yes, I am in fact assuming that, because that's indeed what the facts basically indicate. Keeping things to one article per season is much more manageable, which is why every long-standing Lost editor here favors that solution. There continue to be countless examples of fancruft intruding into the episode articles, and it doesn't tend to get reverted. You corrected the ones I pointed out, but not many more, and not ongoing. Take a look at yesterday's edits to Adrift (Lost), for example. I'm not "overblowing" the situation, because if you look at it dispassionately, it's pretty clear that these episode articles simply ignore Wikipedia's goals and tenets. And that's true of lots of these other shows you mention as well (South Park, The Simpsons, etc.). It's simply a bad idea. -- PKtm 20:05, 9 September 2006 (UTC)
- I didn't miss the point. Hundreds of other shows have individual pages with little to no issues (some need quite a bit more work than Lost pages, and even they are acceptable in terms of Wikipedia's guidelines). I feel you're overblowing the situation in terms of how hard it will be to handle. Tens of Thousands of regular "run of the mill" articles have the exact issues you're pointing out every single day, even Featured Articles have problems. They get worked out when people actually work together to make Wikipedia better. Vandals will always exist on wikipedia, and for the most part the people who say "oh, they left this out of the article, so I'll just add it" won't continue to add something that is blatnatly crufty and/or incorrectly placed in a single article any more than someone would continue to edit an entire huge season article, if they do without any explanation, they'll get banned, that's how it works. Season one's articles have had almost no activity since they were created, about 6 months ago. The Pilot has maybe 75 edits... quite a small number for a popular item, other episodes, such as Numbers (Lost) has even less, around 20, thats right, 20 edits since March. As with ALL wikipedia articles, if people don't pay attention to them, things will most likely get added that are either not factual, or are poorly worded, happens every day. On a side note I don't see how it's ANY different from a full season article describing all the episodes, as there are plenty of people who edit those pages to keep them correct. You're assuming that I, myself, am the only one monitoring these pages. Radagast83 21:56, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
- Radagast, you are correct. Extensive discussions and polls have shown that there is a 2:1 preference for individual episode articles over compilation season articles. A few people in the minority continue to insist that there isn't consensus, but they are incorrect. There is still some confusion about what is to be done with the Season articles (meaning should they be deleted/redirected, or shrunk down to smaller synopses that then link to the individual episode articles), but we'll keep working on that in the mediation. In the meantime, thanks to you (and other editors) for your efforts, and please proceed with your excellent work. --Elonka 20:37, 10 September 2006 (UTC)
I must say that I personally favor per-season or story arc articles vs episode articles. I think that in the past people seemed to favor episode articles mostly because they didn't consider season articles, or saw season articles as a way to "stop" them from adding content. The pro episode article camp seems to be acting like they're losing something valuable, as if this same information in a different format would be somehow less important if it wasn't technically it's own document file.
That being said, Wikipedia does not exist to summarize plots, per policy in WP:NOT#Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate collection of information part 7: "Plot summaries. Wikipedia articles on works of fiction should contain real-world context and sourced analysis, offering detail on a work's achievements, impact or historical significance, not solely a summary of that work's plot. A plot summary may be appropriate as an aspect of a larger article." We have to ask ourselves why are we wanting to summarize every little thing that happens? If it's to be comprehensive then it's failed miserably. To think that if you say what happens you will somehow properly represent a show (especially one like this) is far from true. In fact, summaries alone and not seeing an episode can be down right misleading to the real experience. We're actually misrepresenting Lost by trying to include this level of detail.
Our articles should exist to tell the readers things they can't find out by just watching the show. Yes, summaries will be needed for examples and to allow people to know what the show was about, what the basic plot turns and points were, etc. Those types of summaries are in context, they serve the article as examples, etc to help the reader understand something greater about the show. We must ask ourselves, who are we writing this for, what porpoise will this information serve.
Guidelines such as Writing about fiction (manual of style) are showing a growing consensus that is reevaluating our fictional articles. Just because some things are just how they were done before, doesn't mean that's how we're going to keep doing them. How we treat fiction on Wikipedia is changing. -- Ned Scott 03:11, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
- Personally, I am in favor of episode articles not because I "didn't consider season articles" nor because it "stopped" me from "adding content". I'm in favor of individual articles because many shows have them and they are much easier for users of Wikipedia to access them individually, they are better organized, and less restrictive (in that there are not suggestions to take out information to make the entire article size more acceptable for example).
- "Our articles should exist to tell the readers things they can't find out by just watching the show." The information is the same (nearly) regardless of whether it is a season or individual episode. Nothing in the Season articles tell the reader anything outside the summary than the individual articles do. Season one episode articles are almost all the same length as the episode articles (perhaps 100-200 words longer or shorter in some cases). But by the policy you state, neither are acceptable because they exist for the exact same purpose. Projects such as Wikipedia:WikiProject Television episodes have existed for multiple years and thousands upon thousands of episode articles have been added to Wikipedia. As is, it would be nearly impossible to impose that specific (no summary) policy now, or ever. A general, few hundered word summary per season seems to be what you're suggesting. However, if that's the way to go for the future, I'd rather support that over the entire season article page, but from my reading of any "changes" to current episode policies (the ones that haven't been enforced for years) is that nothin' is happening anytime soon. Radagast83 04:44, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
- I was.. more commenting on two different views that I have on the same topic. One being season vs episode and the other about how much we summarize in general, regardless of format, character, episode, etc.
- You seemed to have proved part of my point, in that one of your reasons to support them is simply because everyone else has done it. You do have a valid point on the organization of individual episode articles, that some being an individual document can make some things easier to find, but I believe that depends on the type of show, the storyline, and what is generally included in the episode article.
- Lost has many episode-specific things, especially the flash backs, but in general is a running story-line. For those kinds of running story-lines I think season pages work better because you don't have to hop around articles just to learn a general over-view. TV shows like South Park, while having some form of "canon" are generally independent of each other, each episode having specific themes, parodies, references, etc. Also, South Park is more likely to have something known for an individual episode rather than it's season as a whole. I'm not saying one is more notable or that there is more or less to write about from these two shows, only that the individuality of the episodes is different, something akin to almost separate topics.
- That being said, because of the flashbacks being so significant in Lost, I honestly could see this going either way. I don't feel too strongly about the Lost articles specifically going in either direction. However, in general I think that episode articles are simply the old way of thought, not necessarily the better. We're not looking at why we organize things in individual articles vs shared articles.
- I don't think many people have seen good examples of season articles as an alternative, or have even considered them an alternative. They just sort of assume that episode articles are the next step, whether or not it's a good choice. Over at WikiProject Anime and manga I've seen a few season/ story-arc style articles popup that suddenly inspired others to do the same instead of episode articles. New ideas can catch like fire pretty easily on Wikipedia, and I think the changes will happen a lot sooner than you think.
- The policy on episodes from Wikipedia:Centralized discussion/Television episodes, I assume you are talking about, as been enforced several times. I myself have brought it up in several discussion, and have seen others do so as well in discussions where I was not involved. There is no link or tool that can tell you how actively people use a policy or guideline, so I would not assume something is "dead" when it clearly is not.
- My second part is about how much we should be writing about summaries in fiction. The point I'm trying to make is we often try to summarize for the sake of summarizing, and this is simply not acceptable for Wikipedia. Is it a huge ass problem that will take a long time to fix? Probably, but the scale of the task should not stop us, especially considering the scale of Wikipedia itself in what we are trying to do to build a comprehensive free encyclopedia. I'm not sure what kinds of articles you watch, but a great many that I watch have been the subjects of many merges of characters, crufty information, rewrites, etc. I've seen several discussion on season articles vs episode articles, and even discussions that concluded that the List of episodes was as far as they should go. I've also been following many discussions where I've seen a changing of "status quo" in WP:FICT, WP:WAF, WP:SPOILER, and in many WikiProjects (being how we treat fiction in general).
- I don't think the idea is to force anyone to do anything. Rather, we should show alternatives and rational for writing summaries as better ideas. Good ideas can take off very fast on Wikipedia. Like I said before, I think the changes will happen sooner than you think. -- Ned Scott 05:31, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
- Currently the issue between season vs. episode articles for Lost is in mediation. If the season articles stay, they need to be edited down with season being the key to the article instead of episodes in the season (A list could continue to give one sentence summaries of the stories, but I digress). With that said, I agree that not all shows need individual episode articles. That would be ludicrous and impossible for many shows (for them to move beyond "stub" status). For what Lost is, the individual articles (and, yes even the season article) give the entire plot justice. The same could be made for any other show, but it would be hard pressed to find a way to do a quality episode article of Law & Order (ADA Jack does this, Detective Lenny does that) or say, Walker, Texas Ranger (Walker does a round-house kick). Also, most sitcoms would not them either, as analyzing the plot would ultimately destroy the humor (and point) of the episode. Stuff like that just doesn't transcribe well. It's just in the way the episodes are presented, I feel that Lost doesn't fit into that. Anyway, in conclusion, I'm going to get back to editing articles and let the debate rest until we actually get someone to finish up the mediation. Radagast83 06:10, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
Browndog922
..I will not revert him/her again, if someone else wishes to then feel free to. thanks/MatthewFenton (talk • contribs) 08:42, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
Related poll
A routine move request was submitted on an episode article, Fire + Water, to move it to a name that was more consistent with the other episode articles in Category:Lost episodes, namely Fire + Water (Lost). However, the move request has generated a surprising amount of controversy, so I am requesting further participation. Any editors who would like to offer an opinion on the matter, are encouraged to do so at Talk:Fire + Water. --Elonka 21:25, 17 September 2006 (UTC)