Talk:List of Midwest emo bands

Indie Emo ≠ Midwest Emo*

Just because a band is Indie Emo, Philadelphia Emo, etc, it does not make them Midwest Emo.

Example: The Wonder Years, Car Seat Headrest, or Alex G ThyOfThee (talk) 22:41, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

As long as there is a reference to a reliable source calling the band "Midwest emo" that is all that is necessary for inclusion here. ThaesOfereode (talk) 01:40, 19 June 2024 (UTC)

Adding bands without sources

For future reference: Please find at least one reliable source that describes the band in question as "midwest emo" before adding them. There's already a lot of bands on here that need a citation. Thank you! 222emilia222 (talk) 09:49, 20 June 2024 (UTC)

This^

Also bands can span multiple genres. Midwest Emo has heavy influence from Skramz, Math Rock, Punk, Post-Hardcore, etc. Bands can also very in music type (instrumental, acoustic, etc.). ThyOfThee (talk) 15:26, 10 September 2024 (UTC)

We should also refrain from using bands' Bandcamp sites as proof of genre pursuant to WP:BLPSELFPUB. ThaesOfereode (talk) 16:09, 10 September 2024 (UTC)

Some bands are really obscure and that's the only point of reference; you're not going to find an article on a majority of these bands. ThyOfThee (talk) 12:13, 11 September 2024 (UTC)

If they are so obscure that we cannot find a reliable and independent source that mentions them and calls their music Midwest emo, they should not be included. Now, that doesn't mean that every band listed here has to follow the notability guidelines for bands and musicians, but we do have to have some editorial discretion; Harrison Gordon probably doesn't have enough coverage as of yet to warrant a page, but has had an independent source or two discuss him and call his music "Midwest emo". Wikipedia is not a who's who of the scene nor an indiscriminate collection of bands associated with it and so we should be at least a little selective with who we add to this list and more selective about the kinds of sources we're adding. ThaesOfereode (talk) 13:09, 11 September 2024 (UTC)

Where would we draw that line though, Harrison Gordon is both well known in the community as midwest emo and has many listeners on say spotify. Dear Maryanne is a much smaller band on spotify or similar yet is still well known within the community as midwest emo.

Personally I'm the type of person that likes long lists so I am genuinely wondering your thoughts. ThyOfThee (talk) 00:07, 12 September 2024 (UTC)

With independent, reliable sources. There are a lot of bands who have been in the scene for a long time and are well-known (and that I love!), but as Wikipedia editors, we have to step back and ensure that the band – and particularly the genre in this case – are attested in reputable, 3rd-party sources. Basically, the name of the game here is WP:V. On lists like these, you can get away with not meeting the traditional qualifications for WP:N, but no page on Wikipedia should ever sacrifice its commitment to verifiability for any reason. Another way to think about it is this: if Beyoncé decided that her music was Midwest emo – not that she was going to make Midwest emo, but that "Single Ladies" and "Halo" are Midwest emo – there would be about 100 publications from Rolling Stone to CNN saying, "this is not Midwest emo". By citing a band's personal site, such as Bandcamp, we're admitting that just because someone calls themselves Midwest emo, that's enough to qualify it as such. ThaesOfereode (talk) 12:43, 12 September 2024 (UTC)

Hey, just wanted to say I totally agree with this. I think one reliable source (WP:RSP) calling a band "Midwest Emo" should be enough to qualify them being listed here. This way the list can ensure WP:V but isn't limited in notability or scale. Also by just using this measuring stick I think we avoid scene/genre discourse of what is midwest emo and what isn't.

Also I'm wondering if we should maybe delete the bands without any sources for now, as it makes the whole list look very unreliable. Bands like 7 Birches for example (which I love and added, hoping that someone might find a reference outside of Bandcamp) have disbanded a long time ago and will most likely not gain new coverage. 222emilia222 (talk) 09:32, 1 October 2024 (UTC)

Yes, I agree. I think we should just remove anything unsourced (to include any with only Bandcamp as a source). ThaesOfereode (talk) 00:19, 3 October 2024 (UTC)

Just did the edit! :) 222emilia222 (talk) 12:21, 3 October 2024 (UTC)

What is and isn't Midwest Emo

Many people would not consider bands like Basement and Modest Mouse to be midwest emo. I think it would be better to remove these bands from the list. Throwing melons (talk) 19:38, 12 September 2024 (UTC)

I think if there's a reliable source calling them Midwest Emo it is fair to put them on this list. A lot of bands progress their sound over the time, so while the first Modest Mouse albums are considered Midwest Emo their newer releases are not. I dont think we should limit ourselves to the present. 222emilia222 (talk) 09:36, 1 October 2024 (UTC)

@222emilia222 I agree that limiting oneself to the present isn't always helpful and constructive in many ways. however, I'm concerned about the potential for misleading others when the majority of Modest Mouse's entire discography is very much not Midwest Emo. I go a little bit more in depth into this in the post I just responded to ThyOfThee, and I'd love to hear what you have to say. Throwing melons (talk) 15:29, 6 October 2024 (UTC)

Throwing Melons, respectfully, you sound like the Real Emo copypasta when you edit removing bands with any influence or sound change that isn't the same as American Football or Cap N' Jazz.

ThaesOfereode and 222emilia222 have both done great jobs explaining their individual reasoning's. ThyOfThee (talk) 23:58, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

ThyOfThee, respectfully, I believe if you gave me enough time and enough of a chance, I could make a fairly solid argument for myself. Also, I'm not quite sure what you mean by the phrase "removing bands with any influence or sound change that isn't the same as American Football or Cap'n Jazz." If that was my goal in arguing for the removal of these two bands, then I would've attempted to delete half of this Wikipedia page by now no? I would also make the claim that genres are ment to be debated and discussed. If someone has enough evidence to justify their individual reasonings behind their decisions to make the two previous mentioned bands part of this list, that is great, and I can respect that, but I do believe that this fact shouldn't trump any potential for discussion. Genres are heavily subjective societal labels, and they should be questioned and discussed if we want to ensure the most accurate quality one could possibly achieve. I looked at the source used to justify Basement being put on the list, and the only reference I could find toward Midwest Emo was the quote "Midwest Emo ingenuity." I feel like line was contextually used as more of an easy comparison rather than a strict categorization of the band. After this line I could not find any other reference to Midwest Emo in this article. The source also states "The grand grunge-inspired gestures", and "hardcore-inspired finale", but I don't see Basement being put on the list of band Wikipedia pages for Grunge, Post-Grunge, and Hardcore Punk. Looking around, I really couldn't find any other evidence towards Basement being considered Midwest Emo other than a brief reference to Braid and Sunny Day Real Estate being potential influences, which I'm not sure if that personally can be considered enough evidence as well, because many artists are compared to, and take inspiration from other artists of various genres all the time. I've noticed many other bands on this Wikipedia page have been sourced this exact same way, but some of these artists have other sources both sited and non-sited to back up this claim, while others could be debated in regards to legitimacy as well. For Modest Mouse, after looking at the provided source and many other sources online, I could only find evidence categorizing their first two albums, 'This is a Long Drive for Someone With Nothing to Think About', and 'The Lonesome Crowded West', as Midwest Emo. If this is, by technical Wikipedia editing terms, enough to consider a band to be put on the list, then fine. Otherwise, I don't see how this is enough justification. Modest Mouse has created tons of music since these first two albums that are different from their early work in so many ways that I find it a bit misleading to classify them Midwest Emo when this genre only describes a small fraction of their entire work. Like I've mentioned before with Basement, I've noticed many of the sources behind some of these bands follow a similar format as Modest Mouse, but have other sources both sited and non-sited to back these claims, while other band don't and could be up to debate as well. I also didn't mention this is my previous post, but why is Canadian Softball on this list? The source provided here is an interview from a guy who's a part of a completely unrelated band who states "Depends on who’s driving. If it’s me it’s Midwest emo and hardcore. Hot Mulligan. All the sports bands: American Football, Canadian Softball, Remember Sports." I'm sorry, but I don't see how this is this any better than if I were to source a Reddit post from a man who claims that Imagine Dragons is Midwest Emo with no evidence other than the fact that he's from Iowa. Also, I should probably specify now that Canadian Softball is in fact a satire band. They don't just satire Midwest Emo either, their whole band makes fun of all types of emo in its various forms. Here are a few sources to back my claim.

https://genius.com/artists/Canadian-softball/bio

https://www.last.fm/music/Canadian+Softball

None of these listed sources lists the full depth of Canadian Softballs parodies however. Songs of theirs such as 'Ohio is For Emo Kids', clearly references and spoofs other, non-Midwest Emo artists such as Evanescence, Hawthorne Heights, and many others.

Anyway, these are all my personal reasons as to why I feel it would be best to change some of these aspects of the page. However I find this discussion as a whole very interesting, and I would love to hear what other people have to say about this topic that isn't just "You sound like internet meme." I believe there's always more to a subject than what meets the eye, and I would really love to hear what the (hopefully constructive) criticisms are for what I have to say so I can learn more about other people's perspectives as well as Wikipedia editing. Throwing melons (talk) 19:53, 6 October 2024 (UTC)

Okay, in an attempt to address some of these issues and bring down the temperature a little bit, I will weigh on this. Let me begin by saying that both users are, I believe, by and large arguing in good faith on the introduction and exclusion of bands; this is a laudable start, though I do agree that "You sound like a meme" is not particularly helpful, even if the intent was in good faith. With respect to the source used to justify Basement as a Midwest emo band, if the source only lists influences and does not mention the band as Midwest emo, then that constitutes original research in violation of Wikipedia's policy, particularly that against synthesis of published material and should be removed. This is a good catch. With respect to Modest Mouse, I don't consider them to be Midwest emo, but that doesn't matter at all; our role as Wikipedia editors is to relay what is found in reputable, independent sources to Wikipedia's readership. If the source indicates that some of the discography is Midwest emo, but the rest is not, it warrants the band's inclusion on the page. I highly recommend placing an {{efn}} tag to make a note of this if you believe that it is important to relay this sidenote to Wikipedia's readers.

With respect to Canadian Softball, just because a band is satire does not remove it from a genre. For example, I don't think it would be unreasonable to consider much (if not most) of Weird Al Yankovic's music as "pop"; the purpose of the music (to poke fun) does not in any way change the presentation of the music (in this case, genre). Whether that source is reliable, feel free to dispute, but should, say, a Rolling Stone article call Canadian Softball a Midwest emo band, that would far and away cover the requirement for inclusion here. I would also like to take the time to point out something about reliable sources since we're here: both of the sources you have are not just unreliable, but they are tagged by Wikipedia's guide to reliable sources as unreliable. Genius is largely user-generated and LastFM is particularly unreliable and thus deprecated as a source entirely. I highly, highly recommend all editors reading this use this user script, which highlights sources and URLs on Wikipedia based on how the source has been appraised by this site's source reviewers.

Hope this helps all parties involved. ThaesOfereode (talk) 00:38, 7 October 2024 (UTC)

@ThaesOfereode @ThrowingMelons

As an absolute new comer who came here because someone told me the Midwest Emo page was having heavy controversy. The clear solution here is to just write in 'early Modest Mouse' and be done with it, that really does solve the problem and if they want to click on the [Modest Mouse] page, they can go find out more. And [Weird Al] is [Pop] because he was introduced into the mainstream, so he's just a popular musician, who happens to be of the [Satire] genre as well, does a band being popular change what their purpose in making music is? Yeah, sometimes it does, this needs to be considered, when talking about Canadian Softball, how does the concept of the Midwest Emo label change their music, does it? Would they or the people listening to them categorize them this way? There is obvious debate here. Throughout the 80s rock music could be considered popular, it's still rock, but has also changed to fit in with other sounds of the time of to compliment the genres around them, similar to how Satirical news sites still often cover current events, they also make events up that could sound true, maybe you should open up a discussion with the people on the [Satirical Bands] page to come to a further solution, they'd probably humor this. Though really I do think they should stay on here, let the reader make up their mind about the genre, this is merely a guide, not a fully influential list to govern the decisions of the people, you could just specify that they're a satirical in the description, ex: the satirical band Canadian Softball often parodies Midwest Emo bands, other lists on Wikipedia often do this if they think that it may be unclear to a reader who is not wisely informed on the topic or that it's a common misunderstanding. Confessionsofareindeer (talk) 11:49, 8 October 2024 (UTC)