Talk:List of Nintendo 64 games/Archive 2
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Bolding " or *
I checked it, but didn't see anything there that said alternate titles shouldn't be in Bold, but I did find this "Equivalent names may follow, and may or may not be in boldface." the other references I found to bold is that they didn't want the same article title, listed over and over again in Bold, the first bold representation of the Articles name doesn't need to be re-emphasizes. Such as in headings and beginning of Paragraph "bold and italic faces for emphasis within headings" which these aren't. Bold was the only way I could find to separate the title from the words that follow it, "in Europe", I tried bullet form but that doesn't seem to work in tables, but only separates it from what is above. I was also wondering if you meant the title should be like this?
Q
| Wikipedia article Title | Alternate Titles | Year | Developer | Publisher | Regions released |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Quest 64 | Holy Magic Century in Europe (エルテイルモンスターズ) Eltale Monsters in Japan |
1999 | Imagineer | Imagineer, THQ, and Konami |   
|
It seems like its three times as big and fragmented, rather then simply one sentence, with alternate titles as I had it with the bold. We could also try use; "title" in Europe. Most people are probably going to be looking for one title that they are unsure of, and will want to have it catch the eye as they read through the list. While others will simply be browsing and want to look up Castlevania's other names or see what Zelda or Star Fox are called in other places. And lastly there's others who will only want one copy of every game and will use it as a shopping list, so they only get one of each of the games that weren't released in their region. I've tried to keep all of those things in mind when trying to put the list together and keep it simple enough so anyone having at least a little information about a game can search and find what they need to get to the Wikipedia article that describes it. (Floppydog66 19:27, 22 October 2007 (UTC))
| Alternate Titles |
| Holy Magic CenturyEU (エルテイルモンスターズ) Eltale MonstersJP |
- I edited the breaks in the table above to be more in line with what I had visualized. What do you think? Another idea is in the table to the right. That is more compact as well. With regard to the boldface letters. I believe it will be a bit odd for the alternate titles to be bolded and not the first title. I mainly brought it up because bolded names are normally reserved for the title of the article/list. Also with regard to emphasis of words in articles, "Italics are used sparingly to emphasize words in sentences (bolding is normally not used at all for this purpose). Generally, the more highlighting in an article, the less the effect of each instance." After rereading though, I do believe that because they are titles they will need to be italicized. (Guyinblack25 talk 20:03, 22 October 2007 (UTC))
I think it'd be better if all the titles names start at the same point, the other Language would separate the EU from the JP, and they have their own Help Japanese section type link. Because the Romanji are at times listed above as the main article's titles suddenly seeing them behind Japanese text rather then on their own would make them harder to find. Separate titles are simpler to find that way, then at the back side of the Japanese text. Here's two examples, where Buckbumble in Japanese means the same I left it as is, rather then typing it out in Romanji when the same word is already giving. I also tried align right' in the sandbox with the new setting and it seems to cause region UK flag to appear below the others rather then on the same level, unless the spaces are taken out from between the flags then it seems to work ok, I'll do that unless there's a reason that they require the space. But I'm also worried about it overlapping the words like it dose below, In my browser the words rearranged, opening, sentencesare all over lapped by the tables below. I replaced the
width=20%|Wikipedia article Title
with the following
width=|Wikipedia article Title
| Alternate Titles |
| Holy Magic CenturyEU (エルテイルモンスターズ) |
| Wikipedia article Title | Alternate Titles |
|---|---|
| Buck Bumble | (バックバンブル) |
| 1080° Snowboarding | Ten Eighty Snowboarding (テン。 エイティ。 スノーボーディング) |
I also rearranged the opening sentences to mention the lockout and other region differences. I paste here just the newer stuff, the older stuff is still there but I don't repeat it here.
The region of each Nintendo 64 (N64) game can easily be identified by the letters USA, EUR, JPN on the cartridge. As in NUS-???-JPN, the question marks representing the individual cartridge's abbreviated name, and NUS is the N64's project name Nintendo Ultra System. The way that the games are made, both Europe and Japan's cartridges are identical, with two small indents on the back of the carts, while the North American versions have these two indents at the back edges. All regions have the same connectors, and a cart converter or simply removing the casing from these will allow them to fit into the other regions systems, however the systems are also equipped with lockout chips that will only allow them to play their appropriate games. Both Japanese and North American systems have the same NTSC lockout, while Europe has a PAL lockout. A by-pass devise can be used like the N64 Passport, but this can cause the picture not to display properly because of the PAL, NTSC formats that the systems displays the games with.[1]
The links on this page will take you to the Article for this game which will give more information about it and describe the region differences that where made to the game when it was re-released for a different region. Of its 387 releases, 83 were exclusive to Japan, 42 to North America, and 4 to Europe.
I lastly added the other reference links and re-did the one with the original reference link. Before it took you to a page of other N64 related topics and you had to find it with the person's name being listed as Simon, and the Article as Game List, even though here on Wikipedia it lists them differently, the new link takes you directly to the Nintendo 64 and DiskDrive64 Game List.
- ^ http://www.chronicgames.net/articles/n64-museum.aspx Review of Nintendo 64 System and it's specifications.
- "Nintendo 64 Games" (PDF). Nintendo of America. Retrieved 2006-06-13.
- Simões, Thiago (September 8, 2005). "Nintendo 64 and DiskDrive64 Game List". GameFAQs. Retrieved 2006-12-29.
{{cite web}}: Check date values in:|date=(help) - Teruyoshi Uchimura, Kiyotaka Nanbara. "Uchan Nanchan Official Webpage (Japanese)". Retrieved 2007-03-28.
- Games with different names, and company that released the different versions.
- Japanese Translation website.
- Japanese Translation Website. (Japanese)
- List of Japanese games and release dates. (Japanese)
(Floppydog66 21:23, 23 October 2007 (UTC))
- If the game was originally a Western release and the Japanese title only uses katakana, then there is probably no need to provide it as it would be a bit redundant and it is in a sense not really an alternate title. I'm not quite sure I understand what you mean by having the titles start at the same point. Could you explain it again? (Guyinblack25 talk 06:37, 24 October 2007 (UTC))
Some games in Japan only have Katakana on their boxes such as ビートル。 アドベンチャー。 レーシング which doesn't say "Beetle Adventure Racing", and there needs to be a way to identify that game. The Romaji would be "Bitoru Adobencha Reshingu" which would be a bit redundant, that's why I don't use it. I use Japanese text for each of the Japanese released games, in the style much like a book that I have that lists all the Famicom games called "Family Computer 1983-1994" by the Tokyo Metropolitan Museum of Photography, where they have both the English, Japanese, and sometimes Romaji, when no direct English title was used, but in their index they still had the English words represented in Japanese, in this way each of the games that where released in Japan on our list will have the Japanese text for the game's title as a Alternate Title, if the game was released in Japan then it has a Japanese text title, as its alternate name. Romaji is only used when it's a Japanese exclusive or the Japanese name is different then English.
Chopper Attack
(ワイルドチョッパーズ)
Wild Choppers
Banjo-Kazooie]]
(バンジョーとカズーイの大冒険)
Banjo to Kazooie no Daiboken
This title is much longer in the Japanese version then the English, but Banjo-Kazooie is the shortened name in the rest of the world. The Romaji conversion information Banjo to Kazooie no Daiboken is also a title that other sites and sources list.
Here's what I meant about the Alternate titles starting at the same point.
| Wikipedia article Title | Alternate Titles |
|---|---|
| Castlevania: Legacy of Darkness | (悪魔城ドラキュラ黙示録外伝。 レジェンドのオブコーネル) Akumajo Dracula Mokushiroku Gaiden: Legend of CornellJP |
Rather then
| Wikipedia article Title | Alternate Titles |
|---|---|
| Castlevania: Legacy of Darkness | (悪魔城ドラキュラ黙示録外伝。 レジェンドのオブコーネル)Akumajo Dracula Mokushiroku Gaiden: Legend of CornellJP |
this way if they're looking for the Akumajo Dracula Mokushiroku Gaiden: Legend of Cornell they have to look at the end of the Japanese text, I feel Akumajo Dracula Mokushiroku Gaiden: Legend of Cornell is as much a title as the other two and should be aligned to the left of the Alternate Titles box rather then it being behind other Japanese text. When I mentioned the names being in a sentence type arrangement. I meant the In Europe behind them and the such, but with the small EU and JP, that helps make the titles easier to identify from the description of where they where from. I also check the other Videogame "List of" and found that most don't have "align left, but variations on the 100% size !width=20%,width=30% type things and I think that seems to work better then deleting the spaces between the flags and allows us to control the squishing or stretching of the information a bit better then the align left, and we should probably keep it with the class=wikitable style=width: 100%" and work with the format others helped to make rather then reformatting the table sizes. Its probably a lot to try visualize, but it will help identify each game and give complete information in the sections of the tables. Someday we'll probably find that we should add a section for Rumble Pak, Expansion Pak and Memory card, but until more is known about all the games including the Japanese ones, that information would only be partially listed and not much help, and should be listed on the separate pages until all the games have been researched better. (Floppydog66 16:52, 24 October 2007 (UTC))
- So in short, you want to make sure all the columns in the separate tables are aligned by making sure each corresponding column is the same width percentage of the table. If that is correct, then that is what I had in mind as well.
With regard to the katakana, if a Japanese title tries to emulate the exact Western title, then I see no reason to list the Japanese pronunciation because that would lean the list in favor of Japanese titles instead of balancing between all titles. Even though "ビートル アドベンチャー レーシング" isn't pronounced exactly like "Beetle Adventure Racing", it is simply an attempt to use Japanese phonetics to pronounce a foreign word, it's not really intended to replace the actual spelling and pronunciation itself.
It's like "piñata", a lot of people in the US call and spell it as "pinata". Mainly because "ñ" is not a standard character in the English alphabet. Both are used to understand the same object, but pinata is not really an alternate name because the two are phonetically close to each other and the English name is an attempt to emulate the Spanish. Naturally the difference is more obvious with English and Japanese titles, but the premise is still there.
Of course some titles like the Banjo games are an exception, because they expand the title with additional foreign words and the Castlevania titles are not translated directly from Akumajou Dracula. But those can be dealt with on a case by case basis. (Guyinblack25 talk 17:25, 24 October 2007 (UTC))
The problum I see with not having the;
(ビートル アドベンチャー レーシング)
is that this is the only way it is displayed on the box in Japan, and unless a person wants to convert it to Romaji by themselvies, they won't know the which game it is, and even if they do the phonics aren't the same and they still won't know its English name Beetle Adventure Racing, which dosen't appear anywhere on the packaging in Japan. And since nearly every other Japanese game has the Japanese text it will appear as missing information and woun't allow them to identify the (ビートルアドベンチャーレーシング), just like Ten Eighty, and 1080° they are differant ways to indicate the title, even though Ten Eighty is, in a way, how it could be pronunced. Both are listed, with the other as Alternate name becuase they are spelt differant, as with Japanese titles, and English. If you don't know Japanese which of these would be the game "Pinata" in Japanese if all you had to go by was the Japanese text
(ぺンヤタ)
(ピンアタ)
(ぴいんやた)
(ピャンシア)
This information needs to be made clear for the average person that dosn't know Japanese. And in the Main tile section it would be listed as "Piñata" just as 64 Ōzumō is.
As for the tables themselves I left them mostly as they were, I arranged it like this, so both Title sections have 25%, 25%, the other pages such as List of Gamecube games use the 100% as their standard, and so do most of the others, and I chenged "Wikipedia article Title" to "Wikipedia Main Title", since some are listed by series rather then having a article of their own;
B
(Floppydog66 18:21, 25 October 2007 (UTC))
- The table looks good. Though I still have a problem with the use of Japanese text for games that were originally released in other territories, and used the exact same title as the previous release. If some one is looking for a game with the title "ビートル アドベンチャー レーシング", then it's a good chance that person is Japanese and they will not come to the English Wikipedia to look for that game. Though Wikipedia is meant to provide a breadth of information, it is not meant to try and anticipate every one's needs. It is proactive and kind of you to try to anticipate that, but we can't cater to the needs of everyone's search habits. We do what we can, but within reason.
- A future conflict I see possibly arising from this is the desire for other editors to include other language titles that are similar. Hypothetically speaking, say if the "Beetle Adventure Racing" game was titled "Emballage d'aventure de coléoptère" in France. Same title, just the French equivalent. Because the Japanese title being there has set a precedent, it would be hard to argue against adding it and that could lead to similar titles needlessly clogging the list. That's what I meant by leaning too much towards Japanese titles. Lean too much one way and you'll have to lean the same amount in every direction to stay balanced.
- As for the appearance of missing content, I added in {{center|—}} as an example of what is done in other tables. (Guyinblack25 talk 19:18, 25 October 2007 (UTC))
Titles in other languages
Same old topic, over and over again. Others still feeling that other titles from other regions shouldn't be listed, or are not needed. I believe all games/titles for different regions are needed to make this a complete "List of", if a game is marked with "Emballage d'aventure de coléoptère" then that needs to be displayed on this "List of" because it is the title of that game in that Country, it is another version of the Main title, any time the title changes the programming has to be altered, and it becomes the official spelling in that countries language, and this is claims to be a list of all games, which means whatever spelling that was originally used by each region, a game with that name exists, and it has as much right as English titles to be listed. It may make the list thicker but it will make it more complete, "Emballage d'aventure de coléoptère" which if translated would appear to mean in English "Packing of adventure of coleopter" and would not give the average English user enough information to find out that the English name is "Beetle Adventure Racing" and not listing it's French name or (ビートルアドベンチャーレーシング) is only showing that the list is incomplete or the game doesn't exist with that name, which it does. Listing "Beetle Adventure Racing" as being spelled only in English isn't correct for that region, the Japanese text used for other entries shows what their exact name is in Japan, or which ever region that game was released. It is a complete list of Europe and United States titles, but when it comes to games released outside of English speaking countries some people feel that alternate name isn't needed, and don't want it to appear or even its other name to be mentioned, even though that's its name in those countries. Which is why there was two separate pages made to begin with, because others didn't want to list all games and all the titles.(Floppydog66 20:59, 25 October 2007 (UTC))
- I really like the idea of the small letters such as JP and EU next to it to show this is its localization such as Japan or Europe. I don't think we need the letters wikilinked every single time, unless the code for that method cuts down on the length of the page (in bytes). If the code for that method doesn't reduce the article size, then there should be a key at the beginning of the article explaining what letters stand for what localization such as JP = Japan, EU = Europe or something to that effect. I do think that if a title like Beetle Adventure Racing has its Japanese title as simple Japanization of its English name, we should still show the alternate title. Yes, I know, it may seem redundant, but it is notable to show which games have a simple romanization and which games either simply do not have a Japanese title or the Japanese title is in Latin letters only and does not use Katakana. If the Japanese title uses a mix of Katakana and Latin with neither Hiragana nor Kanji, I do not believe we should transliterate the transliteration of the Latin letters in Japanese into Latin letters. We should transliterate the Katakana into Latin letters and either transliterate the Latin letters into Katakana or simply leave the Latin letters alone. For example, the Japanese title for Super Mario RPG: Legend of the Seven Stars is simply スーパーマリオRPG. Thus we should transliterate this as either
- Sūpā Mario アールピージー (preferred)
- or
- Sūpā Mario RPG (acceptable)
- not
- Sūpā Mario Ārupījī (nonsense)
- In the case of foreign or alien letters, such as Arabic or Elvish, we should transliterate into Latin letters.
- In the case of a foreign language that uses Latin letters, such as German or Spanish, we should leave the letters alone, but we should also give an IPA pronunciation along with the title.
- Using all these examples together, if there was a videogame for the N64 called
- Super Sentai & русский Robot: No Мир Mañana
- we would write
- or
- and we would code it as
Super Sentai & {{lang|ru|русский}}{{rf|1|Super Sentai 1}} Robot: {{lang|es|No}}{{rf|2|Super Sentai 2}} {{lang|ru|Мир}}{{rf|3|Super Sentai 3}} {{lang|es|Mañana}}{{rf|4|Super Sentai 4}} <br/>({{lang|en-Hrkt|スーパー}}{{lang|ja|戦隊}} & {{lang|ru|русский}} {{lang|en-Hrkt|ロボット}}: {{lang|es|No}} {{lang|en-Cyrl|Мир}} {{lang|es|Mañana}}, <br/>''Sūpā {{lang|ja-Latn|Sentai}} & {{lang|ru-Latn|Russkiy}} {{lang|en-Hrkt|ロボット}}: {{lang|es|No}} {{lang|ru-Latn|Mir}} {{lang|es|Mañana}}'') <br/>{{Audio-IPA-nohelp|Super Sentai and Russian Robot No Mir Tommorow prounounciation.ogg|[suːpə.ˈsɛntaɪ.ænd.ˈruskʲɪj.ɹəʊbɒt.noʊ.mɪə.mənˈyɒnə]}}<br/><sup id="endnoteQSuper Sentai 1"><small>[[#refQSuper Sentai 1|1]]</small></sup>[[Russian language|Russian]]: [[Russians|Russian]] (''Russkie'') <sup id="endnoteQSuper Sentai 2"><small>[[#refQSuper Sentai 2|2]]</small></sup>[[Spanish language|Spanish]]: No <sup id="endnoteQSuper Sentai 3"><small>[[#refQSuper Sentai 3|3]]</small></sup>Russian: [[Mir]] (''Mir'') <sup id="endnoteQSuper Sentai 4"><small>[[#refQSuper Sentai 4|4]]</small></sup>Spanish: Tomorrow
- or
Super Sentai & {{lang|ru|русский}}{{rf|1|Super Sentai 1}} Robot: {{lang|es|No}}{{rf|2|Super Sentai 2}} {{lang|ru|Мир}}{{rf|3|Super Sentai 3}} {{lang|es|Mañana}}{{rf|4|Super Sentai 4}} <br/>({{lang|en-Hrkt|スーパー}}{{lang|ja|戦隊}} & {{lang|ru|русский}} Robot: {{lang|es|No}} {{lang|en-Cyrl|Мир}} {{lang|es|Mañana}}, <br/>''Sūpā {{lang|ja-Latn|Sentai}} & {{lang|ru-Latn|Russkiy}} Robot: {{lang|es|No}} {{lang|ru-Latn|Mir}} {{lang|es|Mañana}}'') <br/>{{Audio-IPA-nohelp|Super Sentai and Russian Robot No Mir Tommorow prounounciation.ogg|[suːpə.ˈsɛntaɪ.ænd.ˈruskʲɪj.ɹəʊbɒt.noʊ.mɪə.mənˈyɒnə]}}<br/><sup id="endnoteQSuper Sentai 1"><small>[[#refQSuper Sentai 1|1]]</small></sup>[[Russian language|Russian]]: [[Russian language|Russian]]: [[Russians|Russian]] (''Russkie'') <sup id="endnoteQSuper Sentai 2"><small>[[#refQSuper Sentai 2|2]]</small></sup>[[Spanish language|Spanish]]: No <sup id="endnoteQSuper Sentai 3"><small>[[#refQSuper Sentai 3|3]]</small></sup>Russian: [[Mir]] (''Mir'') <sup id="endnoteQSuper Sentai 4"><small>[[#refQSuper Sentai 4|4]]</small></sup>Spanish: Tomorrow
- respectfully. Here's why.
- “スーパー” is Katakana, so we should transliterate the Katakana into Latin letters as “Sūpā”. Since this word is the same in the Japanese title as in English and this is the English Wikipedia and our game titles are in English, we should leave this word in English, not translate it into a different Japanese word for Super.
- “戦隊” is Kanji, so we should transliterate the Kanji into Latin letters as “Sentai” and translate it as “Sentai” (or “Squadron”).
- “&” is a transligual character, so we should leave it alone, not transliterate it into ando, however, the IPA “ænd” is the same as the prounonciation of “and”.
- “русский” is Crylic, so we should transliterate the Crylic into Latin letters as “Russkiy”. It is neither Japanese nor English, so we should neither transliterate it into English nor translate it into English but give a note its English transliteration is “Russkie” and its English translation is “Russian”.
- “Robot” is Latin, so we should either transliterate the Latin letters into Katakana as “ロボット” or simply leave it alone. Since this word is the same in the Japanese title as it is in English and this is the English Wikipedia and our game titles are in English, we should leave this word in English, not translate it into some Japanese word for Robot.
- “No” is Latin and means the same in Spanish and English, but it is neither Japanese nor English, so we should not transliterate it and instead give an IPA prounounciation.
- “Мир” is Crylic and means the same in Russian and English, so we should transliterate it as “Mir”. It is neither Japanese nor English, so we should not transliterate it into English but give a note its English transliteration is “Mir”.
- Mañana is Latin, but it is neither Japanese nor English, so we should neither transliterate it nor translate it and instead give an IPA prounounciation but give a note its English translation is “Tomorrow”.
- For example,
Wikipedia article Title Alternate Titles Xenosaga Episode I: Der Wille zur Macht1
1German: The Will to PowerJPXenosaga: Episode I: The Will to Power
(ゼノサーガ エピソードI: 力への意志
Zenosāga: Episōdo I: Chikara he no Ishi)
- If you don't understand right away, please read through it a couple times. I won't place this page on my watch list, so please feel free to leave a message on my talk page. Taric25 21:04, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
Kanji characters aren't used in any other Wikipedia lists where Romaji names are available - not even list of Japan-exclusive video games. The romaji name is almost always sufficient for a general-purpose list in the English Wikipedia. Why should this list differ? Is it necessary to give the name in kanji in addition to the name in romaji? -Sean Curtin 00:23, 26 October 2007 (UTC)
- Yes, we should show the title's transliteration as well the original writing system's characters, because the original writing system's characters are not always Kanji. Sometimes they are Kanji, but other times they are not. Sometimes, they are Kana, such as Katakana or Hirigana, translingual characters, or the characters of a foreign or alien writing system. It is notable to show exactly how the title looks in order to illustrate its original written form. Taric25 08:25, 26 October 2007 (UTC)
- But won't that crowd the tables to the extent that the content will become difficult to read? When I mentioned alternate titles, I meant for it to cover stuff like Bust-A-Move '99 / Bust-A-Move 3 / Bust-A-Move 3 DX and Banjo-Tooie / Banjo to Kazooie no Daiboken 2. Not something like Xenosaga Episode I: Der Wille zur Macht / Xenosaga: Episode I: The Will to Power or Beetle Adventure Racing / ビートル アドベンチャー レーシング; the titles are identical except for the language. Such literal application of the term "alternate title" can cause the list to become much longer than necessary and inhibit the readability and effectiveness of the content. By the suggested logic, then the Beetle Adventure Racing and Baldur's Gate: Dark Alliance should have the "ビートル アドベンチャー レーシング" and "バルダー の ゲート: ダーク アライアンス" listed in their respective articles simply because they were released in Japan. Besides, if one is looking for the Japanese character or other foreign language depiction, that is more often than not found in the game's article, which can be clicked on via the wikilink. Providing too much information in a cluttered way will hinder the average reader from finding even basic information. (Guyinblack25 talk 16:19, 26 October 2007 (UTC))
As I said on the Talk page of the Japanese list the information for each game needs to be "made so people can find the information quickly and wouldn't need to try translate all the Japanese text of the cover or title screen" which if only the Romaji is listed, it means nothing to the average English user, the Kanji and other Japanese text lets them know exactly what the item is, by veiwing it. It'd be ideal if it had a image of the Japanese text near the Wikipedia tile, for the easiest look up, but small JPG images would probably cause the page limit to be execeed. All Europe and United states titles are listed here, the only other major released country is Japan, Guyinblack25 is worried the information being cluttered, and if people are looking for that information they will be looking there and if they aren't they'll simply pass it by that section of the table. He also seems to be worried that other countries adding their titles, but I searched online in German, French, Spanish, and all the linked languages above, and found no other titles besides the ones already mentioned, the EUR versions except maybe the language inside the program seems to be in nothing but English, as the NES games were. Except the few exceptions like "Banana Prince" and "Les Chevaliers Du Zodiaque: La Legende D'or". And there weren't enough of those to make the list any more bigger then a few lines, he also doesn't seem to like the Japanese text used in Katakana, and yet that wouldn't add a single line to the tables because it would be blank anyway. And as SeizureDog said in the deletion page... "If it were up to me, every game would only be listed once." And the link now will be on only one instead of two as it was. He also said "Alternate Japanese titles are not included as they would clutter up the list and aren't useful to the average English user." but Romaji cannot help the average person look up that game, when all the game has on it is the Japanese text. As Nihonjoe said about the Japanese page "as the list allows for easily finding a game in both English and Japanese" which doesn't seem to be what Guyinblack25 wants which is to leave the other 1/3 of the games as not mentionable, simply because they have Japanese pronunciation keys for English words and not the English itself. By that same logic the game "Quattro Sports" the was released in the USA wouldn't be listed if the Europe title "Super Sports Challenge Complete" had the number 4 in the title somewhere, because Quattro sports would be considered a Spanish version, even though its not in Spanish or marketed for Spanish. SeizureDog didn't think it could be done with one column and "nearly a forth of the entries on the list weren't released in Japan, so a good portion would just be blank." but that information is taken up by the other alternate titles or where its not I tried to use the em dash as suggested earlier. Even with all the new information from all the regions it doesn't go over the 100kb limit. Both Romaji and the original text, give a more detailed description of the game in question, whether it is from Japan, France or any other country. I decided to let the games vote for themselves, these are a list of the games with English/Japanese titles, if the majority of them was released in English first they should all be listed in English, but if the majority of them had both Japanese and English titles on their covers when they where first released then that is how they should be displayed here with the Japanese text as Alternate title. The undecided vote is where the date of the English version is not known.
|
1080° Snowboarding |
Gauntlet Legends |
Shadowgate 64 |
Daikatana, in all regions has the Kanji on its cover, Boku Bomberman still has the Kanji on its title screen. (Floppydog66 21:53, 26 October 2007 (UTC))
It was mentioned that Japanese text isn't used on other list of Video Game pages, but it can be found on other Wikipedia pages dealing with Japanese items and their descriptions. If there are none yet for the video games, then I reference you to the Helen of Troy (TV miniseries)", where in it they says; "Who in the world has ever heard of that, there is no such thing." And then comes the answer, which I use here, and its quite memorable. "Then we begin here." As to French titles being listed I would reference the following which shows both English and French Jules Verne#Bibliography. I also wish to share this page,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Greek_place_names it is far larger then our Video Game List, but has tried to do the same thing, list all available information and arrange it in a way that is simple to understand for anyone whether they speak that language, or are just browsing looking for a name they found, and want to see if there is a Wikipedia article about it. What I suggested isn't as elaborate, and I feel the translations of the Japanese games should remain on the individual pages, not on a list of which is a quick look-up/reference page. I've also replaced things like "in Europe" "EU", with EUR and not have it linked, to Europe, because that would have been mentioned above. (Floppydog66 15:12, 27 October 2007 (UTC))
- Dang this talk page is getting long :-P I hope you don't mind I split the game list into three columns. A couple things, I can understand that this might be frustrating. I'm sure you spent a lot of time on the Japanese list, and to have it put up for deletion must have been disheartening. That being said, let's talk about what I'm really worried about; precedent. Since there are a few other similar lists of games according to system, I feel we should iron out all the kinks on this merger so that an easy to follow and reasonable example can exist. I'm not opposed to the listing of Japanese characters, but I don't want us to go overboard with it. While there may not be that many examples of multiple foreign language titles for the N64, there are other lists to consider. This is also not about article size. Per Wikipedia:Article size#A rule of thumb, "guidelines apply somewhat less to lists." It's the readability that concerns me. Besides, if this list meant is to "made so people can find the information quickly", then we need to take readability into account.
- In regard to making it easier so that people "wouldn't need to try translate all the Japanese text of the cover or title screen", how are they going to find it on this list? If they can type or copy/paste the characters, chances are they have at least a basic understanding of Japanese. I believe that the average Japanese person wouldn't look on the English Wikipedia for these titles, they'd go to the Japanese Wikipedia or another Japanese site. So that leaves, the English-speaking fans of Japanese games. Like I said before, if they can type it they could just as easily type it into the main search box, on the English or Japanese Wikipedia, and see what turns up on the game. I know I have plenty of times before. They could even google it, I've done that plenty of times too. So that just leaves the people that can't type it or obtain the Japanese text. Maybe they only have the box or cover/title screen image in front of them. Assuming they find this list, how easy will it be for them to search line by line for the exact combination of characters. I don't know many people that would be willing to do that.
- I also fail to see how "Super Sports Challenge Complete" would not be an alternate title of "Quattro Sports" even if the number 4 was in the title somewhere. It's know as one title in one region and a different title in another. Though something like Beetle Adventure Racing and ビートル アドベンチャー レーシング is a different case because they both translate out to the exact same title. (Guyinblack25 talk 16:20, 27 October 2007 (UTC))
I believe that if you found that the game "Banjo-Kazooie's Great Adventure" was released in the USA, and Banjo-Kazooie the shortened name was in Japanese you'd be arguing that the shorter version didn't need to be listed, but バンジョーとカズーイ Banjo-Kazooie, shows that it had a shorter name in Japan, and therefore not the exact same title. And you wouldn't want it in the list because it was repeating the information. Just like if there was a "Four Super Sports Challenges" it'd be a longer version of the name and if The "Quattro Sports" version was released in Spanish, You'd be arguing that it didn't need to be on the list as a alternate because it was a other language, but simply because it was released in the USA you'd probably over look that fact and list it as alternate title just because it was released in the USA, which would be biased to USA releases, if your deleting all alternate titles that mean the same in English words. The game "Star Wars: Shadows of the Empire" has both the English and Japanese on it, both mean the same but スターウォーズ。 帝国の影 can also be Star Wars: Teikoku no Kage but I believe you feel that since it is written in Kanji instead of Katakana that it is acceptable but "Teikoku no Kage" means the same in English just as French words Emballage d'aventure de coléoptère would, meaning Beetle Adventure Racing, but you didn't want the French even though they were different words that meant the same. Even if the same title was written out in Katakana, they would both be Japanese writing, and both translated into proper English would mean the same. As I said before, I feel any language should be listed here, regardless of how it is translated from that language to English, as long as there is proof that it was officially released, and its Language there is represented here, if we where having this discussion about three French titles with that where also released with English names someplace else, we'd still be having the same discussion, and my opinion would still be the same, they'd be considered alternate titles. (Floppydog66 15:19, 28 October 2007 (UTC))
- Dude, what are you doing? There's no need for that. I just said that I don't see how "'Super Sports Challenge Complete' would not be an alternate title of 'Quattro Sports' even if the number 4 was in the title somewhere" and then you go and say that if there was a "Four Super Sports Challenges" and "Quattro Sports" that I'd "be arguing that it didn't need to be on the list as a alternate because it was a other language." This has begun to degrade from a discussion into a petty argument. You just gave four consecutive examples, of how you believe I would make certain assumptions against your stance (some which are erroneous and don't actually reflect how I think).
- It's starting to read like a political smear campaign ad. You took 3/4 of your last comment to tell everyone how you think I'd handle a situation against your stance, apparently in a foolish manner because I would "overlook" certain facts. Then you spent the last 1/4 about your opinion. And I'm sorry, but simply stating your opinion is not enough to reach a consensus; it needs to be backed with some reasoning, not slander.
- Like I said before, I can understand that this might be frustrating, because you've probably invested a lot of time and effort into the list. I can respect that. But be that as it may, I would like to find some kind of compromise with you on this. We both want the same thing, a better and more comprehensive list. So where do we go from here in order to reach that? (Guyinblack25 talk 17:17, 28 October 2007 (UTC))
Your missing my point about Super Sports Challenge. Quattro Sports is a Re-release of Super Sports Challenge, not the other way around. Hopefully you would think it deserves a Alternate title listing behind Super Sports Challenge. As for the Star Wars title, I simply stated what you said about Kanji, to me and possibly others the typed out Kanji would be the same as any French words meaning the same as the English words in the title, but you wanted Kanji here but not the French although they both (and even Katakana) would mean the same as the English titles. If that's not your opinion then share how you do feel about such arrangements, you don't give a example of any specail case you wish to make a exception for, but only state that it might be needed. You suggested that they can be handled separately, and special cases be made, but such trouble-some things accrue, if we decide to only use some of the information, and not all of it, rather then using it all and having a comprehensive listing, which works collectively with the same set up through out the entire page. So far you've shown no other reference point besides Wikipedia that lists both English, Japanese, Europe, and, or Japanese text, English text games or any complete official listings of these regions for other games. I've tried to post links to the sources I got the information from and referenced a book that also lists them that way, which hopefully will help people find other sources not just here. You've said how other languages would only confuse people, but with pages like the Jules Verne, and List of Greek, they're not any harder to understand, then this would be. Instead of giving any detailed information your using "needlessly clogging the list", or "no need to provide it" and offer no other way for someone to find that information, besides checking other sites, or going to a page that they don't know exists, that might have the alternate character-set spelling of the word, when it is not in English. While others readers would need to attempt typing out these words, which shouldn't be needed when they could just as easily come to this list or Japanese List Of to find the information. You suggested "mege and Redirect" for the Japanese to be linked here, but only wanted some of the information to be listed here, yet what your suggesting isn't as helpful as what is there at that page for looking up the Japanese titles, which the average person would need the most help with. (悪魔城ドラキュラ黙示録外伝。 レジェンドのオブコーネル) isn't any more cluttered up then デュアルヒーローズ would be, which reminds me were you able to figure out which of the Japanese characters above meant "piñata" yet? You might feel I'm picking on you, but after suggesting the Em-dashes, you seem only to be taking part in the discussion about what isn't needed or might be confusing to people, yet both you and SeizureDog seem to be more annoyed about having them on the list, rather then showing how they'd be cluttering. Its not only my opinion here we also have Taric25 and Sean Curtin's contributions to this discussion, they where both at the deletion discussion and have as much a right to their opinion as we do, and I agree with Taric25's views of Japanese text as being alternate titles, all of them. As SeizureDog said "Alternate Japanese titles are not included as they would clutter up the list." He and you seem to think they will clutter up things, its just that your wishing to accept more of the alternate titles then he was, saying you think some of the Japanese text could be used, in 悪魔城ドラキュラ黙示録外伝。 レジェンドのオブコーネル even though it means Akumajo Dracula Mokushiroku Gaiden: Legend of Cornell which could be considered redundant, and be making a special case compared to how you wanted to set up the rest of the list. The official name is in Japanese not Romaji, if we list all the official names in English and Japanese, we can let others add Romaji if they want, but that would mean, the Japanese text would still be used through out;
| Wikipedia Main Title | Alternate Titles | Year | Developer | Publisher | Regions released |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| 64花札 天使の約束 | —
|
1999 | Altron | Altron |
|
| Castlevania: Legacy of Darkness | (悪魔城ドラキュラ黙示録外伝。 レジェンドのオブコーネル)JPN | 1999 | Konami | Konami |
|
| Beetle Adventure Racing | (ビートルアドベンチャーレーシング) and HSV Adventure Racing in Australia |
1999 | Paradigm Entertainment | Electronic Arts |
|
As you said "simply stating your opinion is not enough to reach a consensus; it needs to be backed with some reasoning, not slander." I've given my thoughts, you've given your thoughts, and at least two other people besides us have stated theirs here also. Yours seem to be about making special cases for things you feel might confuse people, or might be cluttering. Which I feel "needs to be backed with some reasoning". I've given plenty of reference to pages, books and other places where alternate titles are displayed in Japanese text, and shown far more complex things that at least to me, aren't any more confusing, and I know even less about French and Greek, but found those pages just as simple to understand as this one with Japanese. I've shown several options as to how the Japanese and English texts can be integrated into this list, and others on the deletion page offered more, such as a Japanese only column, but you felt that wasn't needed and thought it could be done with just the one, I have no objection to there being just one or even another new column besides, Alternate Titles. Take your pick. I asked Taric25 and Sean Curtin to come and give their opinions, as well as others, both on the deletion page and here. And I think removing all Romaji is also acceptable since its not official, and having only the Japanese and English text is still the simplest way to list all available information, and saving any explanations for the separate pages, but I feel, if they or you wish to share your thoughts then do so, although :-P isn't exactly political campaign material on your part either. (Floppydog66 10:35, 29 October 2007 (UTC))
- A few things.
- Reiteration of points I've already made.
- "I don't see how 'Super Sports Challenge Complete' would not be an alternate title of 'Quattro Sports'" = I think "Super Sports Challenge Complete" and "Quattro Sports" are alternate titles of each other, regardless of which came first.
- I'm willing to bet that the number of people that would probably use this list to search for Japanese titles of a 5th generation game console would be a minority. The only significant use, including Katakana only exact translations, is to do a in-browser search of the page. But as I stated earlier, that requires the ability to type and/or recognise, copy, and paste Japanese text. Which in turn implies at least a basic understanding of Japanese. Basically, even if that minority did come to English Wikipedia to search for it, they'd more than likely type or paste it in the main search box to take them to the actual game article.
- With regard to the people that can't read/write Japanese, I doubt that they'd scan through the list, assuming they find the list, comparing each separate entry with what ever combination of Japanese character they used as a reference. I feel that the very few number of die hard fans does not outweigh the need to keep the information neat, easy read, and organized. Call me a hard@$$, but I believe that catering to every possible expected needed is impossible and counter-productive.
- New points
- In the AfD Discussion, my stance was "Merge and redirect - I'm in favor of a selective merge." Per WP:Merge, selective is not a complete merger of content. That's what I thought about it then and that's what I'm going for here. This, however, is irrelevant to the discussion and I'm not sure why you brought it up other than to say I'm not doing what I said I wanted. Regardless, to change one's mind in a discussion is the whole point of discussing. To learn inherently implies changing. Whether you're right or wrong, you learn from the discussion for the better to improve you point of view.
- I also don't recall even mentioning my opinion on kanji, I believe others did though. The only thing I mentioned was about exact translations of English titles. But since the topic is up, I'm actually in favor of using the Japanese text in the Template:nihongo on games that have a relevant alternate Japanese title or only a Japanese title. Castlevania: Legacy of Darkness and 64 Hanafuda: Tenshi no Yakusoku for example. However, I'm not in favor of using any exact translation, Kanji or otherwise. Beetle Adventure Racing! and Doom 64 for example. Others may disagree with the inclusion of Kanji and I'll go with consensus on that part. However, the romanization should be kept per Wikipedia:Manual of Style (Japan-related articles)#Romanization.
- In regard to the examples you provided. The Jules Verne article is not rated and the List of Greek place names is rated B-Class. Does this rule them out as examples completely? No, but comparing them to a Featured list does mean that has to be taken into account. I still believe that exact translations of titles in other languages are not needed and they are not even included in every article. Most of the articles about his books simply state their English name, just like most of the game articles that were released in English, don't mention the Japanese names. I believe because it is redundant and that's what the interwiki links are for. The List of Greek places looks like it is geared more towards Greek linguist rather than a general audience, which is what we need to do here. Cater towards the general audience.
- Because this is a FL, it needs to follow Wikipedia:Featured list criteria, and adding un-needed content that will not significantly help or improve the article will clutter it. And per 1(f) of the FL criteria it needs to remain well constructed.
- Also, Wikipedia is not a directory. So changing this list to a list of games that will help people find Japan titles of US/EUR games, moves it towards that. And as stated earlier, creating a directory of Japanese titles for a minority of users is not what's best for the list, and doesn't really fall under the purpose of Wikipedia or the Video Game Project.
- Reiteration of points I've already made.
- (Guyinblack25 talk 18:36, 29 October 2007 (UTC))
What I'm objecting to is that you wish to make this the only place with on Wikipedia with the Japanese information, with a redirect link to here, this page isn't as useful when looking up or arranging those game as the Japanese one, and as I stated on the talk page there its a companion to the Famicom List of and Super Famicom list of and I've also asked them if they would like the original text in Japanese to be incorporated into they're lists weather as simply text messages or small JPG. Images, with possibly the Japanese text in the j p g.| Japanese text, behind so they have a direct visual and clip and paste version of that information. Which of course would be considered nearly UN-thinkable here by you or others but that is what I believe the Japanese sections need to keep there translations correct and not miss inform each other about which game is which. Another thing I think you'll find is that if you add another colon as Alternate titles and use Japanese text even once people are going to assume that we're considering Japanese text as Alternate titles and they'll add them themselves as Wwild Choppers and Snow Speeder where this is probably the third or more time they've been listed before some finds out they're retitles of another game and try deleting them, I think you'll have the same problem with the Japanese text only using some of it.
I got one other question and its OK if you did but I wanted to ask if you blocked me, because when I watched this page the only info that said it was used was the renaming of the mp3 file. (Floppydog66 03:09, 31 October 2007 (UTC))
- First off, I'd like say that I didn't block you. I'm not an administrator and don't have that authority. Nor did I ask to have you blocked because I have no legitimate reason to convince an admin to block you. It's quite clear we don't see eye to eye on this and possibly other ideas about Wikipedia. But I still respect your passion for what you believe in and if I was that fed up with you I wouldn't keep coming back for more.
- That being said, I can understand the reason behind your objection. And you're probably right, it may be a head ache trying to keep up with the mis-informed editors that misinterpret the content. But that's one of the cons of an open wiki that we just have to deal with. Unfortunately though, we still have to abide by the guidelines and policies of Wikipedia, and that means sometime creating and editing content/pages that we may not feel are the best representation of a topic. Personally, I don't think Kingdom Hearts (series) fully expresses what the series is all about and I'm sure there are plenty that would agree. But it meets the encyclopedic article guidelines as one of Wikipedia's Featured Articles. It's a give and take here, but because we're in Wikipedia's backyard, we have to play by their rules. And according to the guidelines, I believe restricting the number/type of alternate titles is the best course to take. I also feel that if this works out well enough it should be applied to similar pairs of game lists. I may not actively pursue it, but I wouldn't be opposed to the mergers.
- If I may make a suggestion, and I don't mean this in a condescending way, but you may want to think about copying the content from List of Japanese Nintendo 64 games over to Gaming Wikia or some other non-encyclopedic video game wiki. Just an idea; it'd be a shame if the list didn't exist somewhere especially after the time and effort you put into it. (Guyinblack25 talk 04:05, 31 October 2007 (UTC))
I'm not sure what was wrong with my watchlist, some how it deleted old Talk 64, stuff too, and I figured since most of the talks where here with you that somehow it removed just those, I've heard you can block another Wikipedia users but not sure how, and I figured if that happened any page that was contributed by them might not show up on a watch list because you where blocked from seeing their information.
As for the list it sounds like where pretty much done unless you can think of other things that it might need, I'm more of a put-ter-inner then a taker-outer and unless anyone else has anything they want to add to it, I suggest that I post it as we worked it out with Japanese text Romji and all, and let others sort through delete the unnecessary bits and if they still want that information it'll be there in the pages history, and they can see what was changed and possibly why it was changed. The only reverts or changes I'll try to prevent are titles like Wild Choppers from being removed totally from this list and things like that, whether they or others want Akumajo Dracula Mokushiroku Gaiden: Legend of Cornell in or not. It could be listed in Romji or just it's Japanese text, either way as long as the title is represented, that's all I'm worried about here. The more changes that you guys, and gals make to it, the more it'll be less like the List of Japanese Nintendo 64 games and someone searching for more information will hopefully go there, and it'll be needed. Since going to the others like Famicom lists and others I'm thinking of adding the dates to that page and a few other things, which as I showed above many of the USA dates and stuff still need to be researched, and I always thought the intro was a bit dull, but wanted it to have the same starting point as this page, "System was released in" and "had these games when launched", it doesn't tell the history of the Japanese games as good as it could, if all else fails we'll probably be back here for round three of what Japanese stuff this list should have. Sooner or later a complete list of Rumble pak, Expansion Pak required, Transfer Pak, and stuff will be needed and all of those games are already listed here so they'll probably want it added once a working list has been assembled. I found two other Japanese N64 games that according to the boxes have Transfer Pak compatibility, but can find no information about it here or on the Japanese Wikipedia or any other place, in one case at least the Game Boy game was supposed to come out later, and seems to have been abandoned or changed to another game project. As for browsing by subject and stuff hopefully those looking up N64 Japanese only stuff will still have the (LJN64g) for along time to come. I also tried to fix some of the errors here on this page as I went through link by link to make sure everything was in good shape. Winnie the Pooh: was changed because that doesn't seem to appear on the games anywhere in any region, all box art and screen shots seem to only call it Tigger's Honey Hunt there where also a few other small changes but as I worked didn't write them down except on the new version of this page. Hopefully it'll be more informative and in a week or so I probably won't recognize it, but unless anyone else has any other additions to make I'll try post it in two days from now. This will be your last chance before the hurried edit wars that everyone will want to add or delete what they want or don't want. But this is Wikipedia and I can't stop you but only revert things I think that where out and out vandalism, like deleting Wild Choppers entirely from the list. Be on your best behavior and if you delete or add something try leaving a edit note about it, so someone doesn't revert back it, because you'll eventually probably both be coming here to the talk page to get others opinions about your being right and them being wrong. Any other questions I'll still be around to check in and read the Talk page from time to time, any questions in Japanese spelling are mostly answered already on the Japanese list page. (Floppydog66 08:31, 1 November 2007 (UTC))
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