Talk:List of Nobel laureates affiliated with the University of Cambridge/Archive 1

Archive 1

Todd Visiting Professorship

Alexander Todd Visiting Professorship is an award/honor based visiting professorship.[1] I will remove Jean-Marie Lehn from the list. Ber31 (talk) 08:46, 5 August 2019 (UTC)

Alexander Todd Visiting Professorship is somewhat like the Sherman Fairchild Visiting Scholar at Caltech, and it is not just an award/honor; see [2]. In particular, there is required residency, and there is stipend for teaching and research at the university. Public lectures as [3] might be part of the visiting professorship, but not all. That's probably why Cambridge's official count [4] includes Jean-Marie Lehn, whose Nobel C.V. also explicitly says his Todd Professorship was an appointment. After all, "as for award/honor-based visiting positions, to minimise controversy this list takes a conservative view and includes the positions as affiliations only if the laureates were required to assume employment-level duty (teaching/research) or the laureates specifically classified the visiting positions as "affiliation" or similar in reliable sources such as their curriculum vita." Hence, Jean-Marie Lehn should be included. Minimumbias (talk) 22:12, 5 August 2019 (UTC)

Okay. Lehn makes the cut. Ber31 (talk) 05:46, 8 August 2019 (UTC)

Cambridge's official Nobel count

I just noticed that the official Nobel count of Cambridge has changed. They have removed Weinberg from their list, and it has become similar to this list. Few months ago, in March 2019, I posted a comment[5] pointing out that they haven't counted those who were only affiliated with LMB after 1962. Back then, their list didn't include Jean-Marie Lehn and Thomas Steitz. Their current list includes both! I am convinced that whoever edited that list used Minimumbias' and my work to improve the official Nobel count of the University of Cambridge.

Thomas Steitz should be removed from this list. He was affiliated to LMB after 1962. MRC LMB Nobel list should be in the page of Laboratory of Molecular Biology. Ber31 (talk) 06:15, 8 August 2019 (UTC)

I agree that some Cambridge University staff may have looked at these Wikipedia pages and adjusted their official count accordingly. On one hand, it is a good thing for obvious reasons, but on the other hand, it is not that good because they now claim in [6] that "Affiliates of University of Cambridge have received more Nobel Prizes than those of any other institution," which is plainly wrong according to our lists. Hence, I plan to create an individual list for Harvard, MIT, Stanford, Oxford etc (similar to those of Cambridge, Berkeley and Chicago) before the Nobel Prize this year (October) to provide more details on this matter. You are welcomed to join the project. Minimumbias (talk) 21:41, 8 August 2019 (UTC)

For Thomas Steitz, I'm not sure why both the Nobel Prize's official website [7] and the Cambridge's official count both describe him as affiliated with the University. Again, he is included for now because Wikipedia does not allow us to do original research and override the statement of reliable sources. This is indeed a tricky case, and I am personally not happy about it. However, in order not to confuse our readers (117 vs 116), I suggest we leave him in the list until the Nobel Prize this year when the numbers of all universities are subject to change. Minimumbias (talk) 21:46, 8 August 2019 (UTC)

There is no guarantee that the Nobel Prize's official website will publish accurate information concerning someone's affiliation. Cambridge's official count has Steitz because of this[8]. If you were not to include Steitz on the page in March 2018, Cambridge University staff won't have included his name on their official Nobel count!

LMB and the University of Cambridge are two separate institutes. According to this source[9], "In 1962 he [Frederick Sanger] left the University and moved to the new UK Medical Research Council Laboratory of Molecular Biology (LMB) as Head of the Protein and Nucleic Acid Chemistry Division." We must be consistent. We cannot keep only Steitz on the list, and ignore others who were only affiliated with LMB but not with the university. Eventually, his name will have to be removed. Ber31 (talk) 05:41, 13 August 2019 (UTC)

Since LMB is a separate institute, the Nobel laureates affiliated with LMB should be in the page of Laboratory of Molecular Biology. It is wrong to list some of the laureates of LMB on this page. Ber31 (talk) 05:51, 13 August 2019 (UTC)

1) Blaming me for keeping Steitz on the list is ridiculous. Once and for all, let me state this unambiguously again: the reason why Steitz is included is not my personal preference, but is the Nobel Prize's website & a book [10][11](also, the Nobel biographical page [12] contains descriptions about his research connected to the University). Arguing against a reliable source like the Nobel Prize's website requires other reliable sources specifically related to Steitz, not personal judgement or guesses, and I have stated clearly that "Steitz" is indeed a very tricky case and compromise had been made. After all, we scholars in academia must show some academic rigor and be really careful.

On the other hand, the Cambridge University staff are not blind or stupid and they are not simply copying the Wikipedia pages, otherwise their official count would be 117 instead of 107. Note that they have stated at the beginning of their official count [13] that "We have omitted several laureates where there is insufficient information available to confirm their connection with the University." Hence, they included Steitz because they could confirm he had connection with the University (echoing the description in his Nobel biographical page, and there might be some other connections which I do not know about and have not been posted online by the staff), and these Wikipedia lists might have brought Steitz to the staff's attention in the first place and that's all. It is not wise to overestimate the power of Wikipedia and underestimate the readers' own discretion.

Now, it is a fact that Steitz was affiliated with LMB (1967-1970), but the claim that he was only affiliated with LMB is groundless at this point, given the aforementioned statements in both the Nobel page and the Cambridge's official page. And it is quite possible that in the early days (e.g., before 1970) MRC LMB still shared a lot with the University and it is just not reasonable to completely ignore such ties. Therefore, after re-considering the entire case carefully, I believe excluding "Steitz" from the list is not as reasonable as adding a "Note" right after his name explaining the situation — again, this is a compromise and is set to avoid controversy/bias. Hopefully, one day more reliable sources would pop up and a better decision can be made then.

2) The Nobel laureates affiliated with LMB in this list are far from complete. In the past when I first started restructuring the Nobel laureates' page, these people were in the original list (if I remember correctly). They are just examples here, and are presented in this page just to give people a warning that "please distinguish the LMB staff from the university staff and do not add these people in the university affiliation." I don't mind if you wish to create an independent list for LMB Nobel laureates in a separate page, but please do not delete this small list entirely from this page (you may remove one or two names for brevity). Minimumbias (talk) 18:35, 13 August 2019 (UTC)

I am not blaming you for keeping Steitz on the list. I've never said that the Cambridge University staff are blind or stupid. However, I do believe that they haven't been very careful when it comes to maintaining their official Nobel count. At one point, they even had Weinberg on their list, although he was only a special lecturer and member of several advisory committees at Cambridge University [14].

The official Cambridge count only points out that Steitz was a postdoc at LMB; it doesn't say anything about Steitz's affiliation with the university itself. The Nobel biography also doesn't say that he was affiliated with the university. To avoid controversy, I will leave Steitz on the list till October 2019, when the prizes will be announced. Thank you for adding a "Note" right after Steitz's name. Ber31 (talk) 06:10, 18 August 2019 (UTC)