Talk:List of civil parishes in the City of London

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Statutory bar[edit]

As far as I can tell there is still a statutory bar on the creation of civil parishes in the City, so this list is unlikely to ever be filled. The 2007 legislation allowed their creation in the London boroughs, not the whole of Greater London. MRSC (talk) 11:10, 23 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

You are correct. The only reason this page exists is as a sub-page to List of civil parishes in England, which is organised by ceremonial county. The City of London, of course, is a ceremonial county, and therefore requires a page, though commonsense might well have included it under Greater London. Skinsmoke (talk) 13:44, 23 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The Temples[edit]

The Inner and Middle Temple survived the 1907 amalgamation. I notice that legislation often refers to "The City and the Temples" [1] Not really sure what the Temples are though (unparished areas?, extraparochial places?) Lozleader (talk) 16:21, 9 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Mapping data from the 1911 census onwards produces:
  • District: City of London CC
  • Parishes: City of London, Temple
Various places within Wikipedia claim they are liberties, which I don't think there is any evidence for. MRSC (talk) 17:18, 9 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The Inner and Middle Temples are liberties and I'm pretty sure this status is extant too.
This page is most useful David (talk) 18:04, 9 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • EDIT CONFLICT so may not make chronological sense** "Under Victorian legislation (20 Victoria c.19), the Inner and Middle Temple were constituted civil 'parishes' for certain purposes, including poor relief, and were not to form part of any Poor Law Union or District." [2] The legislation they are referring to is the Extra-Parochial Places Act 1857 which I will try and chase up.
We could probably take the "Liberty" section out of Inner Temple and replace it with "local authority". There is quite a bit of material in the reference above to add re the Temple's role as a local authority.Lozleader (talk) 18:31, 9 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Hold on, why would you remove the Liberty section altogether? The section mentions a number of things about the Inner Temple's status, including that of extra-parochial, local government and so on. David (talk) 18:38, 9 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

So, they had simultaneous existence as civil parishes (for some purposes). Did these cease to exist in 1907 or in 1965? MRSC (talk) 18:37, 9 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Definitely not abolished in 1907, and I suspect not in 1965. Probably still extant in factLozleader (talk) 19:03, 9 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
ANOTHER EDIT CONFLICT! The 1857 Act [3] Under s.3 the temples effectively became civil parishes with the under treasurer of each being the overseer of the poor. They are however called "places".Lozleader (talk) 18:41, 9 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
@Dpaajones I really meant rename the section and add the extra infoLozleader (talk) 18:43, 9 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I would like to point out that the Inner and Middle Temples (still) appear on the very detailed Ordnance Survey mapping (the sort you can access with the academic Digimap system/local authorities' use) with a boundary marking (around their combined area, within the City) that is normally used for civil parishes/Welsh communities. This is to do with the area's status as a liberty (or liberties)/extra-parochial areas within the City, and the Ordnance Survey still mark this on their base mapping for official purposes. David (talk) 18:44, 9 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The wording of [4] is interesting. It sounds like they are asserting their status as a liberty. MRSC (talk) 18:47, 9 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

One thing that is implied is that they are two local authorities, but one "area" called Temple, which perhaps explains "the Temples" nomenclature rather than naming them both. MRSC (talk) 18:45, 9 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

"Temples" is absolutely, technically incorrect. There is the Inner Temple and the Middle Temple. However, when writing quickly (or wanting to be more concise) "Inner and Middle Temples" is often (though strictly incorrectly) used either to mean the two institutions or the area covered by the two institutions (which to all intents and purposes is one piece of land - just the individual buildings are carved up between the two Inns). The Temple/simply "Temple" is the name for the area in general, which of course you know! David (talk) 18:51, 9 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I'm thinking of this. MRSC (talk) 18:52, 9 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

“the Temples” means the Inner Temple and the Middle Temple. - needs the interpretation section to make this clear, as "Temples" is shorthand. David (talk) 18:55, 9 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

"Temple" is given by mapping data from the census (after 1911) as a single area comprising both temples. MRSC (talk) 18:54, 9 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Land Common To Inner Temple and Middle Temple[edit]

Might be good to work out exactly what this was (appears in 1911 census) [5] MRSC (talk) 19:09, 9 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The Middle Temple, Inner Temple and Land Common To Inner Temple and Middle Temple all listed together with an area of 17 acres in 1937. [6] The shared bit had 4 people living in it in 1931. Youngs, which has a terminal date of 1974, lists them as 3 distinct CPs. Lozleader (talk) 19:34, 9 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
It will be a building, a small courtyard and a street (Middle Temple Lane maybe?) somewhere between the two Inn Halls lol! David (talk) 20:20, 9 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Actually, on a serious note, I think it could include the Temple church itself, which is shared by the two Inns. David (talk) 20:23, 9 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
You may be right. Apparently the two societies divided up the area by a "Deed of Partition" in 1732, "The Inner Temple occupies the eastern portion and the Middle Temple the western portion of the precincts, and the limits of the two estates are determined by a Deed of Partition made 1732 (Baylis, 59). The church serves for and is maintained by both Societies."[7] Previously "In some of the buildings the residents on the ground floor were tenants of one Society, while the occupants of the first floor were tenants of the other".[8] I guess its possible that the church is the "land common" to them. Or possibly not... "Members of the Inner Temple traditionally sit on the south side of the Church, the southern half being assigned to the Inn under the 1732 deed of partition."[9]Lozleader (talk) 20:35, 9 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Ah, you've got to love the City and its crazy ways! :D David (talk) 20:38, 9 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, at 0.4 acres, the common bit is probably just the church and immediate surrounding ground. David (talk) 20:43, 9 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

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