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Archive 1

The O le Ao o le Malo is a ceremonial president

I wrote to the Samoan government's website at and the response was that it was a ceremonial presidency.


from therequiembellishere@gmail.com
to contact@govt.ws
date Jul 15, 2007 2:12 AM
subject O le Ao o le Malo
mailed-by gmail.com
To whomever this letter concerns,
I write to you as someone who is avidly into geopolitics and as an amateur contributor to the internet encyclopedia, Wikipedia. Within the community, there is a question as to whether your Head of State should be seen as an elective monarch or as a ceremonial president, which would simultaneously answer as to whether the Independent State of Samoa should be considered a parliamentary monarchy or a parliamentary democracy.
I would graciously appreciate if this could be answered quickly, as I will by cut off from internet access in two weeks and would like to resolve the conflict within the Wikipedia Community as soon as possible.
Many Thanks,
Benjamin (last name omitted)


Response:


from presssecretariat@samoa.ws
to therequiembellishere@gmail.com
date Jul 17, 2007 8:08 PM
subject Re: O le Ao o le Malo
Talofa Benjamin,
Thank you for your enquiry. The Independent State of Samoa is a representative government. Our Head of State is a ceremonial president. Being free from politics, any law will not become law unless assented to by the Head of State.
Regards,
Deborah Mauinatu
Office of the Government Press Secretariat

Therequiembellishere 05:53, 18 July 2007 (UTC)


I still maintain that the Oleao-olemalo of Samoa should not be summarily dismissed as a monarch, simply because a government press secretary (Ms Mauinatu) defines him as a president. The current office holder still retains the trappings of royalty, being a hereditary high chief of one of the four highest noble families of Samoa. His position could be described perhaps as an "elected duke or grand duke" for a 5 year term of office, quite similar to the example of Malaysia, with it's elected 5-year-rotating supreme sultan. Furthermore, the Oleao-Olemalo is formally addressed as 'His Highness', as was his predecessor. Therefore, until I see a "commoner" elected to this high position, Samoa should be defined as an elective parliamentary monarchy in fact.


Kaelin von Gross —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.225.2.101 (talk) 23:27, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

Merged list from monarch

Name Born Title Since Royal House Succession Heir
Azlan Shah 1928 Sultan of Perak (in Malaysia) 1984 Crown Prince Nazrin Shah
Bhumibol Adulyadej 1927 King of Thailand 1946 Chakri Maha Vajiralongkorn
Elizabeth II 1926 Queen of Antigua and Barbuda
Queen of Australia
Queen of the Bahamas
Queen of Barbados
Queen of Belize
Queen of Canada
Paramount Chief of Fiji
Queen of Grenada
Queen of Jamaica
Lord of the Isle of Mann
Queen of New Zealand
Duke of Normandy (Channel Islands)
Queen of Papua New Guinea
Queen of Saint Kitts and Nevis
Queen of Saint Lucia
Queen of Saint Vincent and the Grenadines
Queen of the Solomon Islands
Queen of Tuvalu
Queen of the United Kingdom
1981
1952
1973
1966
1981
1952
1998
1974
1962
1952
1952
1952
1973
1983
1979

1979
1978
1978
1952

Windsor Cognatic primogeniture The Prince of Wales
Hassanal Bolkiah 1946 Sultan of Brunei 1967 Bolkiah Agnatic primogeniture Crown Prince Al-Muhtadee Billah
Goodwill Zwelethini 1948 King of the Zulus (in South Africa) 1968
Qaboos 1940 Sultan of Oman 1970 Sa'id Hereditary
Margrethe II 1940 Queen of Denmark 1972 Glucksburg Cognatic primogeniture Crown Prince Frederik
Carl XVI Gustaf 1946 King of Sweden 1973 Bernadotte Equal primogeniture Crown Princess Victoria
Ahmad Shah 1930 Sultan of Pahang (in Malaysia) 1974 Hereditary Crown Prince Tengku Abdullah
Shaikh Hamad bin Mohammed Al Sharqi 1949 Emir of Fujairah (one of the United Arab Emirates) 1974 AL Sharqi Chosen by the Emir Sheikh Mohammed Bin Hamad Al Sharqi
Juan Carlos I 1938 King of Spain 1975 Bourbon Cognatic primogeniture The Prince of Asturias
Ismail Petra Sultan of Kelantan (in Malaysia) 1979 Hereditary Crown Prince Tengku Faris Petra
Beatrix 1938 Queen of the Kingdom of the Netherlands 1980 Orange-Nassau Equal primogeniture The Prince of Orange
Muhammadu Kabir Usman Emir of Katsina (in Nigeria) 1981
Rashid ibn Ahmad Al Mu'alla 1930 Emir of Umm al-Qaiwain (one of the United Arab Emirates) 1981
Iskandar 1932 Sultan of Johor (in Malaysia) 1981 Hereditary Crown Prince Ibrahim Ismail
Humayd ibn Rashid Al Nuaimi 1931 Emir of Ajman (one of the United Arab Emirates) 1981
Mswati III 1968 King of Swaziland 1986 Dlamini
Sultan ibn Muhammad Al-Qasimi 1939 Emir of Sharjah (one of the United Arab Emirates) 1987
vacant Giacomo dalla Torre del Tempio di Sanguinetto acting 1929 Prince Great Master of the Sovereign Order of Malta 1988 Election by a council
Hans-Adam II 1945 Prince of Liechtenstein 1989 Liechtenstein Agnatic-cognatic primogeniture Hereditary Prince Alois
Akihito 1933 Emperor of Japan 1989 Agnatic primogeniture Crown Prince Naruhito
Harald V 1937 King of Norway 1991 Oldenburg Equal primogeniture Crown Prince Haakon
Muwenda Mutebi II 1955 King of Buganda (in Uganda) 1993
Albert II 1934 King of the Belgians 1993 Saxe-Coburg-Gotha Equal primogeniture The Duke of Brabant
Solomon Gafabusa Iguru 1949 King of Bunyoro-Kitara (in Uganda) 1994
Sheikh Hamad bin Khalifa Al Thani 1950 Emir of Qatar 1995 Al-Thani Appointed from within Royal Family Sheikh Tamim Bin Hamad Al Thani
Letsie III 1963 King of Lesotho 1996 Seeiso Appointment by College of Chiefs
Abdullah II 1962 King of Jordan 1999 Hashemite Choice by predecessor Prince Hussein
Mohammed VI 1963 King of Morocco 1999 Alaouite Agnatic primogeniture Prince Moulay Hassan
Tuanku Syed Sirajuddin 1943 Raja of Perlis (in Malaysia) 2000 Dynasty of Jamalullail Hereditary Crown Prince Tuanku Syed Faizzuddin.
Henri 1955 Grand Duke of Luxembourg 2000 Bourbon-Parma Cognatic primogeniture Hereditary Grand Duke Guillaume
Sharafuddin Idris Shah Al-Haj Sultan of Selangor (in Malaysia) 2001 Hereditary Crown Prince Tengku Amir Shah.
Hamad ibn Isa Al Khalifah 1950 King of Bahrain 1999 Al-Khalifa Agnatic primogeniture Crown Prince Salman
Soane Patita Maituku 1947 King of Alo (in Wallis and Futuna, a French territory in the Pacific Ocean) 2002 Chosen by tribe commission
Joan Enric Vives Sicília 1949 Episcopal Co-prince of Andorra 2003 Appointed
Visesio Moeliku King of Sigave (in Wallis and Futuna) 2004 Chosen by tribe commission
Norodom Sihamoni 1953 King of Cambodia 2004 Norodom Election by 9-member "throne council"
Khalifa bin Zayed Al Nahyan 1948 Emir of Abu Dhabi, President and Sheikh of United Arab Emirates 2004
Albert II 1958 Prince of Monaco 2005 Grimaldi Cognatic primogeniture Hereditary Princess Caroline
Benedict XVI 1927 Pope of the Catholic Church (Sovereign of the State of Vatican City) 2005 Election by College of Cardinals Election by College of Cardinals upon death
Abdullah 1924 King of Saudi Arabia 2005 Saud Election by family Crown Prince Sultan
Mohammed bin Rashid Al Maktoum 1949 Emir of Dubai (one of the United Arab Emirates) 2006
Sabah Al-Ahmad Al-Jaber Al-Sabah 1929 Emir of Kuwait 2006 Al-Sabah Appointment by Emir Sheikh Nawaf
George Tupou V 1948 King of Tonga 2006 Tupou Cognatic primogeniture 'Aho'eitu 'Unuaki'otonga Tuku'aho
Jigme Khesar Namgyal Wangchuck 1980 King of Bhutan 2006 Cognatic primogeniture Jigyel Ugyen Wangchuck
Mizan Zainal Abidin 1962 Yang di-Pertuan Agong (King of Malaysia) 2006 Election among local monarchs
Sultan of Terengganu (in Malaysia) 1998 Hereditary

--Neutralitytalk 18:55, 13 June 2008 (UTC)

Abdicated monarchs

Would it be worth including a list of monarchs who are living but who have passed their rule on to their heirs? I'm thinking of Jean, Grand Duke of Luxembourg, Jigme Singye Wangchuck of Bhutan and Norodom Sihanouk of Cambodia. Or, if not, is there another page where one might find or more properly add this information? Andrei Iosifovich (talk) 18:33, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

I don't think such a list would be appropriate here. There also appears to be one just like that which you suggest at the Abdication article. --G2bambino (talk) 19:09, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

Appearance

I've restored the appearance of the tables that User:SeNeKa undid. As he didn't leave any edit summary explanation, I'm unsure what his concerns were. --G2bambino (talk) 19:07, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

I've changed Benedict XVI title from Supreme Pontiff to Pope. The latter is more internationally recognizable. GoodDay (talk) 19:14, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

United Arab Emirates

I think including the president of the United Arab Emirates on the list of Asian monarchs is inconsistent. Despite the fact that the federation consists of emirates, on the federal level it isn't a monarchy - unlike Malaysia - since its head of state is styled 'president'. So Sheikh Khalifa bin Zayed Al Nahyan can be considered no more of a monarch than the rulers of the other six emirates of the UAE. So I believe the seven emirs (along with the kings and sultans of the states of Malaysia) should be included in the box of 'Subnational monarchs'. Any comments? ZBukov (talk) 16:20, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

I agree. While the EU isn't a single sovereign nation, it's still sort of analogous in that its member nations include monarchies, yet its own form is certainly not that of a monarchy. On the other hand, the British Commonwealth, other than not being a sovereign nation, has the form of a monarchy even though most of its member nations aren't monarchies. —Largo Plazo (talk) 17:13, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

Tibet

Should this place be included? Does China recognize the Dalai Lama as it's actual territorial ruler? That-Vela-Fella (talk) 09:34, 18 March 2009 (UTC)


Can Vatican be called a Monarchy?

Neither is it hereditary nor is there any training from Birth --Vinay84 (talk) 07:28, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

It's elective, same as Andorra and has all the trappings of a monarchy. I'm sure it was already discussed under the monarchy section about it. That-Vela-Fella (talk) 17:59, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

Netherlands

Queen Beatrix is the Queen of The Netherlands, Aruba and the Dutch Antilles so actually is she a pan-continental monarch too. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.144.100.44 (talk) 13:43, 25 December 2008 (UTC)

Good call. Fixed. Night w (talk) 22:57, 11 March 2009 (UTC)
That is so wrong! Those other places are not seen as fully independent nations, but are still part of & under the rule of The Netherlands. If this was the case, then other places would also have to be added in, like the Cook Islands & Niue, etc. Only those under the criteria of 'pan-continental' here need to be as fully recognized nations sharing the same monarch. That-Vela-Fella (talk) 09:22, 18 March 2009 (UTC)
The Kingdom of the Netherlands is a pan-continental state by itself, just like France or Denmark. The Kingdom of the Netherlands is the sovereign "fully independent nation", and the Netherlands comprises one part, the European part, of it; the rest is in America. So even by herself, Beatrix belongs under Pan-Continental. Night w (talk) 10:42, 18 October 2009 (UTC)
It may be seen that way, but then why isn't Spain for example also not included? The Canary Islands are also considered part of the Kingdom of Spain, even though they are within the continental area of Africa. The way I took it by that definition was a shared monarch with other independent states on different continents and not by territories/colonies. That-Vela-Fella (talk) 08:36, 30 October 2009 (UTC)
Technically Spain should be included in that list also, and so should Denmark. And they're not territories--they're countries within the kingdom. Aruba has the same constitution status as the Netherlands under the Dutch Crown. I don't agree with it (and it will probably come up again with another editor), but to avoid technicalities like Spain, and since she resides in Europe, you can move B back to Europe. Altho, is this right "pan-continental"? Shouldn't it be "intercontinental"??? Pan- is across a singular continent... Night w (talk) 02:00, 31 October 2009 (UTC)

In the strict sense, I can see how that is, but let's keep things to the motherland itself. I'm sure the intent made was to show those nations having a shared monarch & you are correct in the actual wording, in that it should be 'intercontinental' (since it's among continents & not all). I'll make the needed changes. That-Vela-Fella (talk) 12:07, 31 October 2009 (UTC)

Subnationals

I was in the process of merging information from List of subnational monarchs when I became frustrated with the sheer magnitude of the task. To say the list on the aforementioned page is incomplete would be a huge understatement. There's certainly plenty of Googlable information on each possible entry, but there's just so many--mostly in West Africa. I didn't get to Côte d'Ivoire or Cameroon, and I gave up during Nigeria. There's some examples here: 1, 2, 3, 4; this guy does a good job of consolidating this kind of information (that URL links to his page on Nigeria, but he does one on everywhere), but even his lists are incomplete.

I think the table would end up being massive. What I think needs to be discussed is the very definition of a sub-national monarchy. There are monarchs whose status is written into a state's constitution (like in Malaysia); there are those who ceremoniously reign over a portion of territories (like some in Nigeria); a lot of the rest are leaders of ethnic groups, like the Maori King, and more in Africa...one might call these chiefs (a term mentioned in the Monarch page), but a lot of them preside over a nation (i.e. the whole ethnic group), which is divided into tribes---but the positions are still hereditary. What does everyone think? Night w (talk) 11:29, 19 October 2009 (UTC)

Rather than making the same list twice, it would be a better idea to keep things here more simple & export what has been so far done here (in the format it has) to that other article already made. Afterwards, just make a link on here to re-direct others to the list of subnational monarchs. That-Vela-Fella (talk) 08:44, 30 October 2009 (UTC)
Yes I shall do that eventually. That page is a mess right now, and I'll get to it as soon as I have time. Night w (talk) 02:02, 31 October 2009 (UTC)