Talk:List of genocides/Archive 12

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Archive 12

Genocide of Palestinians in Gaza (ongoing)

WP:ECR. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 02:22, 26 January 2024 (UTC)
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
I don't think there is much need to argument this suggested topic, but for the sake of clarity: Israel has already explicitly enacted 3 out of 5 genocidal actions as per Article II of Genocide Convention (1 - killing members of group, 2 - serious bodily and mental harm, 3 - deliberately inflicting conditions of life calculated to bring about physical destruction), the ICJ is set to a hearing against Israel for charges of genocide as South African lawyers have compiled pages after pages with statements by Israeli officals clearly documenting the genocidal intention of this monstrous collective punishment on innocent civilians, there is already 20 000+ reported dead over a population of 2 millions, there are 1.2 million internally displaced people crammed up in a third portion of Gaza territory, and more and more evidence is simply right there in the face of everyone. 213.32.254.179 (talk) 12:42, 7 January 2024 (UTC) This appears to be largely WP:OR. — Czello (music) 13:31, 7 January 2024 (UTC) I don't think it's original research. Anyone who doesn't believe it is a genocide only needs to wait, before the ICJ's decision or the resulting destruction to Gaza or the West Bank. Maybe we should also include the wrongful imprisonments of those in the West Bank. Sophistocles (talk) 21:53, 24 January 2024 (UTC) It is OR as that comment was all formulating a personal conclusion - textbook OR in fact. But yes, we can wait until there is a more conclusive ruling. — Czello (music) 22:55, 24 January 2024 (UTC) It isn't formulating a personal conclusion. Please read this: https://www.icj-cij.org/sites/default/files/case-related/192/192-20231228-app-01-00-en.pdf. Which outlines the the extent of the evidence that asserts Israel's actions in this conflict as Genocidal. There also many other scholarly sources with the same conclusion. There is clearly a very strong allegation of Genocide and some people disagree. However the inclusion of the Holodomor shows me that this list looks to also include allegations which are debated, so why would we not include this? I believe the list should be more open to any situation where there is a genuine reliable case for genocide. I also expect this Genocide to be added following a ruling against Israel's actions from the ICJ. Sophistocles (talk) 12:07, 25 January 2024 (UTC) I think what this article needs to do, in these cases and more broadly, is to be more explicit about the highly contested nature of most possible entries in this list. That is, Wikipedia shouldn't be saying in its own voice that X or Y is a genocide when the debate is far from settled, but we should be acknowledging cases where there is significant debate. Maybe that's about including some more text in the lead to note this. Maybe that's including more text around individual entries noting debate. Bondegezou (talk) 12:20, 25 January 2024 (UTC) I agree @Bondegezou Sophistocles (talk) 02:05, 26 January 2024 (UTC) The comments above were forming a conclusion as no source was linked. But as you've now linked one – it needs scholarly recognition, not a case being put forward to the ICJ that hasn't even been decided on yet. — Czello (music) 18:28, 25 January 2024 (UTC)

Guatemalan genocide entry

It asks for "citation needed."

Here is some info:

'The killing of this period in Guatemala has been recognized as “genocide” by official analysts and by a thorough 12-volume investigative report (CEH, 1999). This latter study made clear the appropriateness of the phrase “acts of genocide” to name the crimes of Guatemala’s military against the Maya, in spite of the military’s claim that they lacked “intent” to commit genocide, that it was only motivated by economic, political or military concerns (CEH, 1999, ch. 2, vol.3).'

Quote above is found at this link:

https://www.counterpunch.org/2023/12/22/israel-and-genocide-not-only-in-gaza/ M.mk (talk) 16:28, 25 December 2023 (UTC)

CounterPunch is not a reliable source. Do you have a better sources for this? BobFromBrockley (talk) 17:43, 3 January 2024 (UTC)

The source is a WP:SPS blog from a tenured prof at Princeton Seminary (and also not a specialist in genocides or international law). CounterPunch is the blog publisher, for purposes of evaluation per its entry in WP:RSP. Furthermore, Taylor is the secondary citation to the primary internal citation: UNOPS Comisión para el Esclarecimiento Histórico 1999.

The latter must be critically examined for whether the former accurately characterizes its description of "genocide". At that point it is a WP:RS. SamuelRiv (talk) 20:01, 26 January 2024 (UTC)

1984 Sikh Genocide is

It was a well planned and organized genocidal attempt on Sikhs of Punjab (India).The contemporary PM of India,Indira Gandhi, used to create Sikh fobia vote politics. But her 2nd ambition for which Indian state declared a total war against Sikhs before 1984 under that plan they used 3major ops against Sikhs. 1st op Blue Star i.e.attack on the heart of the Sikhs 'The historical golden golden Temple'. 2nd Operation 'Wood Rose' to search and eliminate every youth between 16-46 to make big gap in a generation and to teach the Sikhs lesson,as they dare to stand against, Emergency Declaration of Indira Gandhi during this order every political opposition leader was captured in prison. Only Sikhs in the Punjab took stand against this anti democratic possession. 3rd Operation was Op.'Shanti', In this activity, Indian state made many groups of their forces to defame the Sikhs. They used to kill many of hindus and blamed on sikhs. Sikhs criticised and demanded for the enquiries but they denied. Sikh Youths captured from their homes, colleges, farms and shot dead on point blank. A human rights activist S.Jaswant Singh Khalsa, collected evidence of elimination of 25000 Sikhs, from public crimation centres but later on S.khalra was also picked up and disappeared. It's a long history having long list of credible evidence. Even Contemporary governer Mr B.D.pande also declared in his book that there were many activities in process by the govt.agencies used against Sikhs. Many thousands of Sikh Youths killed on the land of Punjab. Almost a generation was eliminated. The reason declared to the peoples of India behind all above that S.Jarnail Singh Bhindrawala is a terrorist but during and RTI (right to information) plea Indian govt.confirmed that there was not a single case had registered in Punjab and whole India but whole Indian forces with heavy artillery used to attack on a religious place. "Isn't this a genocide"

Again in November 1984 2nd genocidal operation was in whole India when for 03days Sikhs were killed, burnt alive, women gang raped.everything in front and support of Indian forces. Human watch and human rights commission filed a report under name "who is guilty". But no response to many of such reports.

If that mass killing was in result of a PM then why this mass killing didn't happen again when next PM fired by Bomb. Not a single Hindu killed in revenge. When Mahatma Gandhi was shot publicly why the mass killing didn't happen. How come within few hours, hard core criminals from prisons released with fire powder and voter lists of Sikh to Identify and burn the Sikh properties and Sikhs peoples.

it was a human massacre, as accepted and declared by many countries So also must be listed here in the list. I will updateore facts and figures shortly. Jassipawar (talk) 07:42, 27 January 2024 (UTC)

The main article for the topic is 1984 anti-Sikh riots, and describes it as a typical pogrom. Dimadick (talk) 13:19, 27 January 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 28 January 2024

2A02:8428:50B:1A01:6EAB:2660:5837:84E5 (talk) 09:16, 28 January 2024 (UTC)

Add palestanians genocide by Israel!

That is obviously a contentious addition that would require consensus, not something that can be actioned with an edit request. Endwise (talk) 12:28, 28 January 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 30 January 2024

Add the Palestinian Nakba of 1948, source: Nakba, killing and massacres articles on wikipedia

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nakba#:~:text=During%20the%20foundational%20events%20of,and%20given%20new%20Hebrew%20names.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killings_and_massacres_during_the_1948_Palestine_war Liteobserver23 (talk) 04:03, 30 January 2024 (UTC)

 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{Edit extended-protected}} template. see above. Note that Killings and massacres during the 1948 Palestine war also details massacres of Jewish people committed by Arabs, so your point is not made. Cannolis (talk) 04:29, 30 January 2024 (UTC)

Important information to include in edit summaries for "self reverts"

This is a page where this seems to be a lot more likely than average to happen. I'm asking for this partly because, from the edit summaries already there, I really can't tell if this is happening already.

If somebody asks you to do a "self revert" to correct an alleged violation of WP:1RR, please make sure you explain this clearly in this edit summary.

• mention it is a self revert or mention its about 1RR
• specify who asked you to do it
• specify which edit you are reverting (time stamp or version number)

If you use the "undo" button, leave what is there automatically and just add (for example, if I asked you to do a "self revert") "self revert requested by [[user:irtapil]]" to the start.

Probably a good idea to tag who asked for it in any edit that involved someone else, like "as user:____ suggested on the talk page (link to discussion section)" instead of just "as agreed on talk page" like I've seen a few other times.

Irtapil (talk) 15:40, 30 January 2024 (UTC)

Why is the (redacted) here but not the (redacted)?

can someone explain in plain English why a whole thread got redacted? Irtapil (talk) 15:45, 30 January 2024 (UTC)

Based on the edit summary provided, it is the enforcement of community sanctions and arbitration decisions due to topic. Cdjp1 (talk) 18:23, 30 January 2024 (UTC)

This is a more of a meta discussion but it's ridiculous such a high bar for a talk page, being the same as for editing the article. Specially considering that some wikipedia users are very loose when it comes to assessing whether an articles is related to the banned topic or not. For instance, the countries by gdp list https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nominal)&diff=prev&oldid=1202592802

Genocide of Indigenous Americans

The process of exterminating Indigenous peoples in the Americas perhaps deserves an entry of its own, though some constituent parts do appear. The list of North American massacres of Indigenous peoples has its own page with a seemingly endless list of incidents, and when taken together clearly constitutes a singular genocidal effort rather than individual anomalies within the process of colonization.

The Uyghur Genocide is listed, in spite of many of the claims about said events -- forced reeducation, forced sterilization, etc. -- were and are practiced on Indigenous peoples on these continents, along with forced removal of lands, which is plainly the definition of ethnic cleansing, and is even accepted as such in the Wikipedia article on "Ethnic Cleansing."

Furthermore, the Holodomor even makes an appearance, even though its status as a genocide is so debatable that the note on its very inclusion in this list mentions that fact. If an alleged genocide can be included in this list with a footnote, then I find it particularly jarring that these events, which are confirmable genocidal simply by looking at the words of those who perpetrated them ("our objective is to continue until there is not a single Indian in Canada" as said Duncan Campbell Scott, architect of Canada's residential school system, or how about George Washington's claim that "the gradual extension of our Settlements will as certainly cause the Savage as the Wolf to retire; both being beasts of prey tho' they differ in shape" -- there are countless admissions such as these).

If not as one singular item in the list, then the list may at the very least seek to add individual events such as The Trail of Tears, the Residential School System in Canada/Indian Boarding School system in America, the mass sterilization campaigns against Indigenous peoples in places such as Peru and the United States, the ongoing extermination of Amazonian tribes in the pursuit of lumber and likewise events in Paraguay, etc. etc. etc. Jackwc123 (talk) 18:54, 20 November 2023 (UTC)

As I recall the discussion was whether to list all of them as one big genocide, to list each one separately or perhaps to add an extra "campaign" column to group them under. A campaign column would be useful for other cases of genocide, for example Generalplan Ost, itself consisting of multiple genocides. If I remember correctly there is also controversy over whether to count dead due to pandemics as part of the American genocides.

Due to WP:SYNTH we can't list events as genocides unless there are sources calling them as much, even if they seem obviously genocidal to us. And per WP:LISTV sources must unambiguously call them genocides in line with the UN definition, as that is the criteria for inclusion on this list. KetchupSalt (talk) 12:15, 21 November 2023 (UTC)

In the century that followed arrival of Europeans, the native population of the Americas dropped from 30-50 million, depending on authors, to 2.5-5 million, depending on authors. We can't be splitting this up into "small genocides". Of course some is due to disease, but other genocides include indirect deaths also. I don't have the time to scour the history of this article, but I seem to recall there being several larger genocides and the Americas being included? Tallard (talk) 17:03, 18 December 2023 (UTC)

In the century that followed arrival of Europeans, the native population of the Americas dropped from 30-50 million This doesn't mean all those 30-50 million were genocided. The crime of genocide requires intent, and the literature linked here so far raises doubt whether deceases spreading by themselves qualify as genocide. Which authors claim 2.5-5 million? They could be a good source.

Failing that, individual events such as the Trail of Tears would be a good start I think, or better yet the Indian Removal Act. KetchupSalt (talk) 13:35, 31 December 2023 (UTC)

Another thing to try and find RS on is the near-eradication of the buffalo as a deliberate act of genocide of the various First Nations that depended on the buffalo for survival, especially the Sioux. The buffalo article lists one source of this type, but it doesn't list any numbers, and its reliability is perhaps dubious. KetchupSalt (talk) 22:03, 7 February 2024 (UTC)

Boxer Rebellion

I believe the Boxer Rebellion should be added as a genocide. It was ethnic cleansing of Christians and foreigners in Norther China, & it definitely fits the definition of a genocide. Just because it was also a war doesn’t mean it wasn’t a genocide, for example take the Bosnian War. 67.226.222.24 (talk) 04:52, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

Christians are not a nation. Also please provide a source. The Boxer Rebellion makes zero mention of it being a genocide and a quick Web search on "Boxer Rebellion genocide" yields nothing. Finally ethnic cleansing and genocide are not the same thing. KetchupSalt (talk) 19:31, 9 October 2023 (UTC)

@KetchupSalt: any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group Parham wiki (talk) 12:09, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

Fair enough. But we still need sources calling it as much. KetchupSalt (talk) 11:11, 31 December 2023 (UTC)

I agree Parham wiki (talk) 11:15, 31 December 2023 (UTC)

Does need to be given it’s proper definition so at least it’s being acknowledged that we still 2600:8803:E3FC:9F00:955:3AA5:6FCF:5E40 (talk) 08:05, 4 March 2024 (UTC)

How do we cover debate and uncertainty

To expand on a tangential point I made above in a now closed discussion, we are faced with a large number of possible entries to this list that are debated. (Sometimes that's just a debate within the Academy; sometimes that's a debate with broader geopolitical ramifications.) Wikipedia cannot settle these contentious topics and shouldn't be declaring contested cases as definitely genocide (or not genocide) in its own voice, but we should, as per WP:NPOV, describe disputes, but not engage in them and Indicate the relative prominence of opposing views.

Is there a way of doing that by being more explicit about the (highly) contested nature of many (most?) entries in this list? Can we include some more text in the lead to note this? Can we include more text for individual entries noting debate?

Personally, I think we should include more entries, but with more caveats noting ongoing debate. But I'm starting this section really just to get ideas from everyone about how to cover contentious cases neutrally. Bondegezou (talk) 11:45, 26 January 2024 (UTC)

The second sentence of the article reads "It excludes mass killings which were not unequivocally defined as genocide". And yet , the Holodomor genocide question is included without any explanation as to why besides some users pushing their POV and ignoring the very second sentence of this article. 181.98.62.149 (talk) 12:49, 26 January 2024 (UTC)

• The lead says "Unequivocally defined" as genocide, which I think is too strong of a bar. The actual list section says "recognised in significant scholarship" as genocide, which is a much lower bar. Of course we can't include everything anyone has said is genocide, like the white genocide conspiracy theory, so we have to put the bar somewhere. In my opinion, it should be something like "generally/usually/typically recognised in significant scholarship" as genocide (under the Genocide Convention).

"Describe, not engage in disputes" is a pretty good point. But I think this article should be more about historical genocides than about describing scholarly disputes about what is and isn't genocide. I think a description of those disputes is better for articles like Genocides in history (or e.g. Genocides in history (1946 to 1999)), which have more room in the prose to explain a scholarly debate.

So, my view would be to leave out of the article debates like the Holodomor genocide question (and certainly the Palestinian genocide accusation, as was suggested above). But that we should still keep historical events which most scholars would generally describe as genocide, even though a smaller minority of scholars do not; I'm thinking for example the East Timor genocide or even the Rohingya genocide. No matter where you draw the line though there's going to be a grey area of course. Endwise (talk) 14:10, 26 January 2024 (UTC)

Thanks, Endwise. I will check out Genocides in history. I think there are some big, politically contentious cases (e.g. Holodomor genocide question, Palestinian genocide accusation) that it would be good to cover somehow, noting they are contentious. At present, we have endless Talk discussion and sometimes edit warring over such. It seems to me better to say, in not so many words, look, people talk about these cases as maybe genocide but there's a big argument, go follow these links and make your own mind up.

We then have almost the reverse problem with a bunch of cases like Conquest of the Desert and Genocide of Indigenous peoples in Paraguay where there is very little attention given to them and it's very difficult for us Wikipedia editors to make a fair judgement as to whether they are "generally/usually/typically recognised in significant scholarship" or "unequivocally defined". You can see some sources call them that, but is some enough? I like the phrasing "recognised in significant scholarship" because it's easier to tell that, yes, there is some significant scholarship on the idea that X is genocide than it is to tell whether, overall, scholarship concludes yay or nay.

Ultimately, I don't think the article can be more about historical genocides than about describing scholarly disputes about what is and isn't genocide because there is very little that is "unequivocally defined" as genocide and an awful lot that is disputed to some degree. But then, generally, I think list articles generally need more expository text! Bondegezou (talk) 15:40, 26 January 2024 (UTC)

There is a similar issue with the Genocide navbox template, which has a discussion here, where just about everything that has at least someone claiming it is genocide listed in it's "list of genocides", except anything relating to Palestine. Where regardless of your opinion of the Palestine accusation, it has a whole lot more experts and relevant academics calling it a genocide than for others on the list, such as Carthage. -- Cdjp1 (talk) 18:50, 30 January 2024 (UTC)

@Bondegezou @Endwise to clarify something does not need to be "unequivocally genocide" to be included, that comment is in regards to instances of massacres where they are not included unless they were shown to be unequivocally genocide. The wording is poor and confusing so I'll look at adjusting it. Basically making it line up with the standard that is mentioned and actually used in the article, a significant amount of scholarship saying it's genocide in line with the UN convention.

Accusations, allegations, and articles about academic debates of the events (Holodomor genocide question) should not be included as they are out of the scope of the article.

On my prior comment, the navbox has settled and moved to be more in line with the standards of this article, though the navbox is more expansive in what it includes.

Personally I'd want many more events adding, though that's based on the issue I have with a lot of the analysis and lacking inquiry in the field of genocide studies. This does touch to what Bondegezou mentioned regarding Conquest of the Desert and Paraguay, there are definitely biases in research around what gets studied in genocide scholarship, so the metric used will necessarily be somewhat relative to what has been published. This can be remedied somewhat by searching the non-English literature on such topics. -- Cdjp1 (talk) 12:33, 8 March 2024 (UTC)

There is a similar issue and discussion at Genocides in history (1946 to 1999): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Genocides_in_history_(1946_to_1999)#Scope_of_this_article. IOHANNVSVERVS (talk) 09:56, 27 January 2024 (UTC)