Talk:List of massacres during the Israel–Hamas war

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Remove Jabalia refugee camp market airstrike

This edit request to List of massacres during the 2023 Israel–Hamas war has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

Remove Jabalia refugee camp market airstrike from the list. This is an military airstrike. There is no mention of the word massacre in the sources [1]

Deerove (talk) 16:53, 17 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Hmm, this is going to be Wikipedia's most unbalanced list imaginable if the objective here is only to present mass killings in the initial militant attack and not any mass killings in Israeli airstrikes. Iskandar323 (talk) 17:48, 17 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Done by A3811. Tollens (talk) 20:53, 17 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Systemic bias

I'm seeing a lot of one side of a conflict here. If this is because some events use the term massacre while others don't, I would suggest reorienting the list so that it's less based on narrow terminology. Iskandar323 (talk) 17:55, 17 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed, I would revert the edit but I’m assuming this is a 1rr page and I don’t wish to repeat the violations The Great Mule of Eupatoria (talk) 03:49, 18 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Add another massacre

Al Ahli Arab Hospital airstrike kindly add it. With at least 500 kills Kkb091 (talk) 18:02, 17 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

It seems like most international media, and the wiki page for the attack, are unsure wether the blast in Al Ahli Hospital was an Israeli deliberate airstrike or Hamas misfire.

It would be prudent to not add the mass-death to the massacre list right now, but keep it in the back burner until better information surfaces confirming what happened. InactiveBlossom (talk) 23:10, 17 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Doesn't really matter who did it re: it's status as a massacre surely? Iskandar323 (talk) 02:00, 18 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

according to Wikipedia’s editors, it’s only a massacre if Arabs do it. When Israel does it it’s just an “airstrike” even if that means intentionally bombing the same refugee camp twice The Great Mule of Eupatoria (talk) 03:47, 18 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

It is an airstrike when it is a military air operation targeting not citizens but militants that are hiding behind civilians. It is a massacre when the target is innocent Jewish civilians. 07:13, 18 October 2023 (UTC) Deerove (talk) 07:13, 18 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Where are the militants bodies then? From what we’ve seen in al Shati and jabalia, nearly everyone who was massacred were civilians. Just because Israel says “hamas uses human shields” it doesn’t mean that it must be true The Great Mule of Eupatoria (talk) 07:57, 18 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

When a fact such as the use of Palestinian human shields by Palestine has been reported, confirmed, verified etc. by outside independent sources, international organizations and renowned human rights experts, it is a true fact. See [2] for example. Deerove (talk) 08:22, 18 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah yeah, we all know the IDF's tired 'human shields' justification for bombing civilian areas. An ironic defense given that the IDF also uses human shields. Iskandar323 (talk) 11:43, 18 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

This seems awfully off-topic so I think it's best to close the discussion about using human shields, unless it is relevant to this article.

Specifically, seeing that the Al-Ahli Arab Hospital explosion was a result of a failed rocket launch, I think it is more of a PIJ accident than a massacre against its own people. Ronash (talk) 20:21, 18 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Kidnapping column

Seems irrelevant to a list about incidents pertaining to death, i.e. massacres. If this is really supposed to just be a list about Hamas-led militant attacks on Israeli villages, it should be titled as such. If it is a list about events in this war with a high body count then it needs to be both properly inclusive and not lend weight to off-topic detail. Iskandar323 (talk) 19:25, 17 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Removed the kidnapped column; I agree that isn't pertinent to a list of massacres. Personally, I am inclined towards deleting the entire article, but that's a different discussion. BilledMammal (talk) 11:22, 18 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

"Nur-al-shams Refugee camp massacre"

@The Great Mule of Eupatoria: Can you provide reliable sources describing this as a massacre? The two sources you provided in your edit do not do so. BilledMammal (talk) 15:45, 20 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

In the second source CNN:https://edition.cnn.com/middleeast/live-news/israel-hamas-war-gaza-news-10-20-23/h_280d416c054f33ea1baed0b64ed8fabc

” Thirteen people, including five children, were killed during an Israeli operation in the Nour Shams refugee camp in the West Bank, according to the Palestinian Ministry of Health.

“The Israeli occupation army committed a massacre in Nour Shams refugee camp in Tulkarem during its aggression on the camp yesterday, where the total martyrs have reached to 13 martyrs including 5 children,” the ministry said in statement on Friday.” The Great Mule of Eupatoria (talk) 16:20, 20 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

We can’t put the claim that this was a massacre in wiki voice solely on the basis of the Palestinian Ministry of Health - I don’t think it would even be DUE to include it attributed - do you have any reliable and independent sources making this statement? BilledMammal (talk) 16:32, 20 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I agree; the Palestinian Ministry of Health has proven itself extremely unreliable, when it comes to number of casualties or even the identity of the perpetrator. Unless there is a reliable source claiming it was an Israeli-perpetrated massacre, I suggest removing it from the List. Ronash (talk) 16:41, 20 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

This was in the West Bank, not Gaza. It seems that the massacres are being removed only based on technicality (for example media sources are consistently labelling Palestinian militant attacks in the war as a massacre, and not when Israel perpetrates something on a scale similar to some other Palestinian massacres in the kibbutzim) The Great Mule of Eupatoria (talk) 16:58, 20 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

It’s not a technicality, it’s all three of our core policies - WP:OR, WP:NPOV, and WP:V. We need to base our articles on reliable sources; if reliable sources aren’t calling an event a massacre then we can’t. BilledMammal (talk) 17:02, 20 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I have seen other pro-Palestinian sources refer to it such but I decided to use CNN, it is somewhat recent too (this morning) The Great Mule of Eupatoria (talk) 17:00, 20 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

CNN hasn’t referred to it as that, they’re only quoting the PMH. Can you link those pro-Palestinian sources, or are they not reliable? BilledMammal (talk) 17:02, 20 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Here:

https://www.dci-palestine.org/israeli_forces_kill_six_palestinian_children_in_the_occupied_west_bank

https://electronicintifada.net/blogs/tamara-nassar/israel-commits-massacre-west-bank-refugee-camp

https://palsolidarity.org/2023/09/destruction-after-destruction-in-nour-shams-camp/

https://www.alquds.com/en/posts/97205?language=he The Great Mule of Eupatoria (talk) 01:36, 21 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Electronic Intifadi is considered "generally unreliable" at WP:RSP, and looking at the rest while they haven't even been discussed at WP:RSN they don't appear to be much better; I've gone ahead and removed the event from the list, as I don't believe the claim it was a massacre is sufficiently well sourced to justify inclusion. BilledMammal (talk) 01:43, 21 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

So you have no reliable source then? This needs to be removed due to having no RS if none can be produced. 2605:B100:919:E985:8131:1983:4ADA:2A49 (talk) 23:14, 21 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Rename: list of attacks instead of massacres

Most of the massacres were committed on October 7th, which is leaving out other strikes and the recent incursion. Seeing that they cannot be added because no reliable source is referring tot hem as that, would it be better to move it to “list of attacks” to serve as a blanket topic, over which the already existing massacres can be added The Great Mule of Eupatoria (talk) 04:20, 22 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

We already have List of military engagements during the 2023 Israel–Hamas war; note this discussion on the talk page. BilledMammal (talk) 04:23, 22 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Merge

Can we merge this into List of military engagements during the 2023 Israel–Hamas war? The military engagement article has a section for the massacre table on top of the Russia-Ukraine version of this article having things like the Bombing of Odesa (2022–present) article linked in it, which is a city being bombed (not really military). I attempted a bold merge, but this was rejected. Note, prior to my bold merge, the massacre section was already added to the article. This is now basically a duplicate article, which was already identified as having Scope/POV style problems. The Weather Event Writer (Talk Page) 05:03, 22 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed.VR _talk 05:38, 24 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Vice regent: This, like, already happened a while back. Just FYI. Iskandar323 (talk) 08:57, 24 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]