Talk:List of native plants of Flora Palaestina (A–B)

Article Name

Can someone explain to me why this article is called "List of native plants of Palestine" and not "List of native plants of Israel" particularly since all the plants have their name listed in Hebrew and none have it listed in Arabic?

Where was this list copied from?

Barring any objections, I will move it to "List of native plants of Israel" and link from Wildlife of Israel —Preceding unsigned comment added by No More Mr Nice Guy (talk • contribs) 10:18, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

I object to the move. This is a botany article, not a politics article. Palestine is used because the scholarship on the subject uses Palestine. Changing the name to Israel might require that we go through the list and remove entries that are unique to what are today the West Bank and Gaza Strip. I don't want to go there. So hold off on your move please. Tiamut^talk 10:21, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

With all due respect, "I don't want to go there" is not good enough. You obviously copied this list from an Israeli source, why don't you tell us what it is?

I also suspect you used "Palestine" rather than "Israel" for political reasons. Particularly since in, for example, Outline of Palestine you say the Golan Heights are not a part of Palestine but here you include them. When are you going to remove entries that are unique to the Golan Heights?

PS. I'm adding this to wikiproject Israel which I guess other editors just kinda forgot to do.No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 10:41, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

Your wiki moniker is certainly apt considering your response. If you bothered to check the article history, you will see that I did not create this article, nor did I pick the title. I have been trying to add wikilinks to the plants listed (linking to their Latin names) and have had it watchlisted since I started that effort. Instead of making (false) assumptions about my personal motives, why not peruse the botanical literature to see what term they use? I can assure you its Palestine (referring to the region, not the state). Its apolitical in that way, no? Tiamut^talk 10:45, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

PS. I don't know what you are talking about regarding the Golan Heights in the Outline of Palestine article. Again, try reading article histories before failing to assume good faith.

PPS. The book used as a reference seems to have Flora Palestina written by an Israeli author. Given that the geographical definition given for Palestine includes the Transjordan, a rename to Native plants of Israel would be flat out wrong. Tiamut^talk 10:59, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

So you're saying the Golan Heights are part of Palestine?

Anyway, what's the source for this article? I'm having trouble finding it. No source = OR if I'm not mistaken.

By the way, I liked the write-something-not-so-nice-then-immediately-strike-it trick. I'll have to remember that.

But back to the main issue here, what's the source for this list? No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 12:33, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

I'm in no mood to argue, so please read my next words very carefully.

I did not write this article. According to the article history, Gidip (talk · contribs) did. In the text, the book Flora Palestina is mentioned. A google search reveals this is the title of many works on the botany of Palestine, beginning with Hasselquist, whose work was published by Linnaues [1] in the late 18th century. In contemporary times, Flora Palestina is the name of a 1972 book by M. Zohary of the Israel Academy of Sciences and the Humanities [2]. This phrase seems to be the most common way of referring to the plant life of Palestine.

I also never said anything about Golan Heights. You did. And I told you above I did not write the bit you keep referring to in the Outline of Palestine, something you would know if you did a little homework and checked the article history page. I don't know why you keep bringing the issue up. It has nothing to do with this discussion.

And now I 'm done talking to you, thank you very much and have a nice day. Tiamut^talk 15:49, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

In other words, you don't know what the source for this article is, since the guy who created it did not specify.

So I guess this article should go to deletion, not renaming or merging.

I'll wait a few days to see if anyone has any comments, otherwise I'll act accordingly.

And you have a nice day too. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 16:21, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

I left a note for Gidip alerting him to this discussion and your intention to nom the article for deletion. Checking his contribs history, its unlikely that he will respond, since he pops in every few months and then pops out. I notice he also created List of adventive wild plants in Israel which deals with plants introduced into the area by human activity. He seems to have intimate scholarly knowledge of this subject. I believe he titled this article this way because the scholarship supports this name, just as the scholarship on the article he created would support that name. I think you are overlooking the issue here that Palestine in this case refers to the geographical region which extends beyond the boundaries of British Mandate Palestine, into modern day Jordan, etc. Changing Palestine to Israel in this case would be totally inaccurate. But if you want to go ahead and Afd this, you are free to do so. Cheers. Tiamut^talk 12:31, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

I'm in no rush to delete this. We'll wait a while and see if he pops in and can provide more details on his source.

How about renaming it to List of native plants of Israel and Palestine for the time being?

On a side note, I'm sure you know the British Mandate originally extended to the East Bank of the Jordan. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 15:23, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

If you were going to rename it according to the modern nation-states represented there, the title would have to List of native plants of Israel, Palestine, Jordan, and parts of Lebanon and Syria. I think the current title is fine.

I do know that for the first couple of years of Mandate, Transjordan was administered as part of Palestine, yes. Irrelevant here though. Tiamut^talk 15:58, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

I was thinking something along the lines of Biodiversity in Israel, the West Bank, and the Gaza Strip.

Also, lets not forget that we have no idea what exact area this article covers since we don't even know what its source is. Actually, if you look at the edit history Gidip specifically says he did not add the East Bank stuff. So "Israel and Palestine" should cover it nicely. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 10:44, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

I disagree that a name change is necessary. Gidip doesn't say he not add East Bank stuff. He wrote "missing many species from the east bank, sorry", which means he did add some but is missing some as well. The book he cites Flora Palestina gives a definition of its geographical scope which he includes in the intro. I don't see what the problem is with the current name. Palestine is used appropriately in this case and substitutes would be wordy and inaccurate. Tiamut^talk 14:40, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

Rename (2010)

To avoid confusion and anachronisms, I suggest renaming this page List of plants native to the region of Palestine (A-B). Chesdovi (talk) 12:43, 4 August 2010 (UTC)

Golan and Hermon

I've never seen any reference of Golan and Hermon being part of Palestine. Transjordan - perhaps, maybe even parts of Sinai, but never Golan, Mount Lebanon and Mount Hermon ridges.GreyShark (dibra) 16:14, 18 September 2016 (UTC)