Talk:List of serial killers by number of victims/Archive 4

Archive 1

Archive 2

Archive 3

Archive 4

Ivan Maleshoff

There's no source indicating there is proof of his 50 murders. They are his own confessions. Even says so on his own article. He shouldn't be on this list unless he was convicted of at least 3. Aquatic Ambiance (talk) 09:22, 10 January 2023 (UTC)

Ivan Maleshoff was officially convicted of anti-social banditry. However, this trial was in-practice a murder trial. The prosecution opted out of trying him for murder since it wouldn’t lead to a death sentence, so instead they charged him with anti-social banditry. Using whether his trial was a murder trial or an anti-social banditry trial as a litmus test for inclusion into a list about criminals is a battle of semantics and technicalities. JoeBo82 (talk) 13:18, 10 January 2023 (UTC)

Even if he was tried for 1 murder, it wouldn't make him eligible to add as a serial killer. As stated in the beginning of this article "A serial killer is typically a person who murders three or more people". He wasn't convicted or 3, he "just" confessed to 50. Anybody can do that. Aquatic Ambiance (talk) 14:53, 10 January 2023 (UTC)

Ok, so I found some info about convictions. Initially I had believed that Maleshoff was not convicted, however, my initial indication was incorrect. According to the Evening Star, Maleshoff was convicted of 20 murders. The Politiken Private supplants this by stating he plead guilty to 50 murders. 　However, an anti-social banditry charge was tacked on to ensure a death penalty. JoeBo82 (talk) 15:29, 10 January 2023 (UTC)

According to the Northern Standard, these factors led to Maleshoff receiving a anti-social banditry charge, so that a death sentence would be issued. JoeBo82 (talk) 15:53, 10 January 2023 (UTC)

The information from the Evening Star establishes the initial conviction for 20 murders; “Convicted of murdering 20 women in a little more than 12 months, Engineer Maleshoff was executed today.” JoeBo82 (talk) 15:57, 10 January 2023 (UTC)

The guilty plea for the 30 additional murders is established by the Politiken Private; “The number of murders on his conscience is estimated at about 50. There was a series of similar murders in Kiev last year, and before his execution, Mashilev [probably a mis-translation of Maleshoff] plead guilty to these crimes as well.” JoeBo82 (talk) 16:02, 10 January 2023 (UTC)

If you further information disputing this, please provide it. JoeBo82 (talk) 16:25, 10 January 2023 (UTC)

The only curious thing about the info on maleshoff is the anachronisms between sources. However, this likely due to delays in transmitting information. JoeBo82 (talk) 16:36, 10 January 2023 (UTC)

TL;DR

• Multiple sources establish a confession to 20 murders.
• Multiple sources establish that Maleshoff was executed on the 6th of June 1935.
• Some sources establish a conviction for anti-social banditry.
• Two sources establish a conviction for 20 murders.
• One source establishes a plea for 30 additional murders.
• Anarchronisms exist between sources, likely a result of slow information sharing.
• One source states age as 41, most other sources state 40.
• Many sources rely the Associated Press for their info.

JoeBo82 (talk) 16:49, 10 January 2023 (UTC)

I agree with JoeBo82. The sources state that he was found by a court to have committed a sizeable number of killings. I'm a little puzzled about the objection.OsFish (talk) 05:26, 11 January 2023 (UTC)

Ok well it doesn't look like those 20 murders which he was convicted for were looked at in detail. Where there bodies found? On this page the "proven victims" is reserved for actual murders that have been proven one way or another. Usually with a dead body, DNA, etc. I'm still not sure if he can be listed with 20 proven victims because this story is very vague since it's so old and the lack of information. Maybe it might be better to add him to the Disputed cases section. Aquatic Ambiance (talk) 08:55, 11 January 2023 (UTC)

If a court has found someone guilty, and there is no reason to suspect a wrongful conviction, it's surely not up to Wikipedia editors to go into the forensic details to challenge the conviction. That would be a form of original research, wouldn't it? OsFish (talk) 09:10, 11 January 2023 (UTC)

I agree with OsFish. As much as it would be nice to have more information, it is kind of hard to satisfy the demands of Aquatic Ambiance when the technology at the time was limited. For example, the structure of DNA wasn’t even discovered until 1953. Therefore, demanding sources with discussion of DNA analysis is quite frankly impossible. JoeBo82 (talk) 15:06, 11 January 2023 (UTC)

Ok let's keep him in the first section. But his "proven victims" should still be changed to 20. Aquatic Ambiance (talk) 17:18, 11 January 2023 (UTC)

No, there is still a guilty plea for the other 30, which indicates a trial would’ve occurred had a plea not been made. The guilty plea for the 30 additional murders is established by the Politiken Private; “The number of murders on his conscience is estimated at about 50. There was a series of similar murders in Kiev last year, and before his execution, Mashilev [probably a mis-translation of Maleshoff] plead guilty to these crimes as well.“ JoeBo82 (talk) 00:40, 12 January 2023 (UTC)

I think it should be moved to "disputed cases." As Osfish said on Ivan Maleshoff's talk page, no Russian or Ukrainian newspapers have covered Maleshoff, which is odd considering that Maleshoff would have been Russia's most prolific serial killer in over 100 years. Due to this, I suspect that the story was a hoax created by foreign newspapers. And JoeBo82, you keep writing about how the Politiken Private said he was convicted of all 50 murders when every other known source contradicts that claim. In fact, I'm not even sure if Maleshoff should have an article considering how little coverage there is of him. Perhaps it should be deleted. Silent-Rains (talk) 20:36, 12 January 2023 (UTC)

Just so people know, I have started a discussion at talk:Ivan Maleshoff#Sources and spelling: a problem. The fundamental problem is an apparent lack of any other sources apart from overseas reporting in that one week in 1935 via international wires or attribution to an unnamed Daily Telegraph Moscow correspondent. No contemporaneous or subsequent Russian or Ukrainian material was found when a small group of editors on ru Wiki looked at the issue. For such a dramatic story, this is unusual. Of course, searches may be hampered by people not even knowing precisely how his family name is spelt, (different transliteration approaches would not account for Milisheff, Maleshof, and Mashelov, none of which looks like a common family name), but that we can't even establish what his name was in itself is worrying.

I don't want to rush into deletion of that page, or removal of Maleshoff from this list, as I think this is a problem that needs experienced eyes. Some RS unequivocally exists, but there are good grounds for wondering if the story is actually true or not. Alas, there is no RS discussion of whether the story is true or not, only on Wikipedia as far as I can see. So I don't know if "disputed" is appropriate either, or whether that constitutes OR. OsFish (talk) 02:44, 13 January 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 1 February 2023

Serial killers are defined by killing 2 or more individuals, not 3 or more as mentioned in this article. https://www.britannica.com/topic/serial-murder 207.243.78.146 (talk) 23:06, 1 February 2023 (UTC)

 Not done: The current sourcing and footnote supports the prose. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 23:42, 1 February 2023 (UTC)

Add Richard Kuklinski (The Iceman) 100+

He was a hitman for the Gambino family and has 100+ kills, was tried and convicted, got two life sentences and died in prison in 2006. 82.39.108.101 (talk) 00:35, 6 February 2023 (UTC)

Ted Bundy's victim count

Ted Bundy's confirmed victim count on this list is 35. In his article, it says he has 20 confirmed victims.

In the "notes" section of the list, it states, "He officially confessed to 30 homicides, but had confessed to killing 35–36 women in the past, and some estimates run upwards of 100 or more." Confessions would fall under possible victims, correct? Silent-Rains (talk) 01:28, 13 February 2023 (UTC)

Add Anders Behring Breivik, The Norwegian Terrorist

Anders Behring Breivik, Is the Mass murderer of Youth Summer Camp. 110.136.129.216 (talk) 13:45, 16 February 2023 (UTC)

Dear @110.136.129.216

Serial killers murder their victims over a long period of time. Since Anders Behring Breivik killed all of his victims in one day, he does not count as a serial killer. Instead, you can find him on the List of rampage killers (religious, political, or ethnic crimes) article. Silent-Rains (talk) 01:13, 17 February 2023 (UTC)

Add Amelia Dyer

Refer here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amelia_Dyer

Amelia Elizabeth Dyer (née Hobley; 1836 – 10 June 1896) was an English serial killer who murdered infants in her care over a thirty-year period during the Victorian era of the United Kingdom 86.24.3.28 (talk) 18:06, 16 February 2023 (UTC)

Dear @86.24.3.28,

This list only includes serial killers active after 1900. Since Amelia Dyer was active between 1879 and 1896, she is on the List of serial killers before 1900 list. Silent-Rains (talk) 01:15, 17 February 2023 (UTC)

Article

Warning! This entire article may be edited or deleted entirely, because of the bias and hypocrisy that it was built on. Thank you! VarneyTrevor1296 (talk) 22:42, 20 February 2023 (UTC)

If you want to get blocked from Wikipedia, that would be a good way of going about it. If you want a change in the rules for inclusion in the list, you need to persuade people on this talk page. Wikipedia operates by consensus, not any random editor's deeply held conviction that they are right regardless of anyone else.OsFish (talk) 01:51, 21 February 2023 (UTC)

Harold Shipman

How is he missing?

A serial killer responsible for 250+ deaths.. 84.71.216.69 (talk) 23:16, 21 February 2023 (UTC)

The simplest answer is: he isn’t missing. There’s a special section for medical professionals who can kill people in plain sight.OsFish (talk) 07:14, 22 February 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 4 March 2023

Change possible victims under Luis Garavito from "193-300+" to just "300+" 2601:602:8280:2810:4D67:94FD:AD87:E185 (talk) 03:08, 4 March 2023 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Illusion Flame (talk) 16:00, 4 March 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 14 March 2023

Charles Cullen should be added. He killed a confirmed 29 people. He even has his own wiki page https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Cullen 2604:CA00:15A:9466:0:0:466:2ED5 (talk) 03:17, 14 March 2023 (UTC)

 Not done for now: Please provide the exact text you want to be added. Thanks Lightoil (talk) 04:40, 14 March 2023 (UTC)

I suggest we remove or clearly define possible victims column

Gary Ridgeway was convicted of 49, suspected of 90 and has confessed to 71. The article lists the number of victims as "71-90+" when it is actually 71 or 90+ depending on who you ask. Since there is bound to be random and conflicting numbers where there is insufficient evidence, it might improve the article to set some guidelines for selecting a possible victim count. I also believe it is not useful to tabulate these numbers at all, since these speculated numbers cannot be meaningfully compared without who claimed them and why. WinogradSchema (talk) 15:24, 31 March 2023 (UTC)

Juana Barraza

Didn't see Juana Barraza (silent lady) of Mexico 16+ on the list. 72.239.231.222 (talk) 05:40, 17 April 2023 (UTC)

Iuouuo

Scream is at your house 2601:4C4:301:1E40:E598:37A9:90D1:A3C2 (talk) 18:51, 5 June 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 29 July 2023

It shouldn't be stated that Michel Peiry was a soldier, because this is misleading. It was just a coincidence that Peiry was doing his yearly mandatory military service (usually three weeks) by the time was arrested, that's probably why it got into Wikipedia, but this is a duty of almost every male Swiss citizen, and usually doesn't mean someone is a professional soldier. Michel Peiry worked in a glass factory and wasn't much more of a soldier than any other Swiss man.

https://www.letemps.ch/opinions/affaires-criminelles-ont-secoue-suisse-710-romont-berceau-dun-tueur-serie 2A02:1210:248C:1500:24CF:FB09:5188:4828 (talk) 12:15, 29 July 2023 (UTC)

 Done M.Bitton (talk) 12:56, 29 July 2023 (UTC)

Francisco Franco

Parece excesivo incluir al anterior jefe de estado de España, al lado de auténticos asesinos como Hitler, Stalin o Pol Pot. Seriemannix (talk) 17:31, 4 September 2023 (UTC)

Probably over a hundred thousand died in the White Terror. OsFish (talk) 04:27, 5 September 2023 (UTC)

Someone should add Andrew Dawson

Murdered three men from 1982 to 2010

Neighbour killer Andrew Dawson given whole life term - BBC News External Links Library (talk) 17:29, 20 June 2023 (UTC)

Feel free to Be Bold and make that change. You are the best advocate of your own idea. Ckruschke (talk) 17:47, 20 June 2023 (UTC)Ckruschke

Dawson appears to have only killed two people, to be a serial killer he would have to kill three or more.--Tulzscha (talk) 20:44, 17 September 2023 (UTC)

He did kill three people. I will add him. Truecrimefan22 (talk) 09:14, 18 September 2023 (UTC)

HAROLD SHIPMAN

Harold ships was convicted of 15 murders but was then confirmed to of killed 218.. why is he not on the list 2.28.57.135 (talk) 20:12, 9 October 2023 (UTC)

He is under the separate Medical Profession list. Knitsey (talk) 20:19, 9 October 2023 (UTC)

Add Lam Kor-wan

Lam Kor-wan, nicknamed Rainy Night Butcher or Jar Murderer, was a taxi driver in British Hong Kong. In 1982, He murdered four women who were his passengers in rainy nights, had sexual intercourse with some of their corpses, after which he cut off their breasts and put them in jars.

Lam's crimes were exposed and he was arrested after he inadvertently brought the films of the organs of his victims to a photo-processing store. He was convicted to life sentence without parole. 110.235.60.91 (talk) 10:26, 4 November 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 5 November 2023

Harold Shipman had 218 confirmed victims. Should be number 1. 86.20.214.66 (talk) 17:16, 5 November 2023 (UTC)

 Not done: for the first list "Excluding these "Medical professionals and pseudo-medical professionals", with their ability to kill simply and in plain sight". There are more lists as you continue down the page, or look at the table of contents

Cannolis (talk) 17:19, 5 November 2023 (UTC)

strange proven kills versus possible kills formatting

for Luis Garavito his proven kills are listed as 193 but his possible kills are listed as 193-300+ When they should be listed as 300+ Phoub327 (talk) 03:01, 7 November 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 2 December 2023

For Joseph James Deangelo, change the Years Active from '1979-1986' to '1975-1986'. The already ref'd Washington Post article from July 2020 has the information that he plead guilty to the Claude Snelling murder in Sept. 1975. He also plead guilty to the murders of Katie and Brian Maggiore in Feb. 1978 (though the ref'd WP article does not mention it.) The number of murders, 13, is correct. 47.208.117.48 (talk) 09:41, 2 December 2023 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Shadow311 (talk) 16:34, 8 December 2023 (UTC)

Most important column

Right now the table has the notes spelled out in their entirety, without using Template:efn footnotes to turn them into hover-able notes. This makes the notes column take up the most space, which is appropriate if the storytelling aspect of the list is the most important part.

However, that could be wrong. Perhaps the data figures should be the real emphasis. If all the big notes were tucked into footnotes, then each row would take up less space, and more data could be viewed and compared at a time.

Here is a what that would look like:

Name	Country	Years active	Proven victims	Possible victims	Notes
Luis Garavito	Colombia Ecuador	1992–1999	193	193–300+
Pedro López	Colombia Peru Ecuador	1969–1980	110	300+
Javed Iqbal	Pakistan	1998–1999	100	100
Mikhail Popkov	Russia	1992–2010	78	83+
Daniel Camargo Barbosa	Colombia Ecuador Brazil (alleged)	1974–1986	72	180
Pedro Rodrigues Filho	Brazil	1967–2003	71	100+
Kampatimar Shankariya	India	1977–1978	70	70+
Yang Xinhai	China	1999–2003	67	67
Samuel Little	United States	1970–2005	60	93
William Unek	Belgian Congo Tanganyika	1954–1957	57	57

Would be curious to hear which format fits better for the purpose of the list. Wizmut (talk) 14:49, 20 December 2023 (UTC)

I much prefer it with the notes as text in the table. I understand that the footnoted version looks neater, and it would be appropriate if the information were technical ie, of no interest to a casual browser. And I appreciate you taking the time to make the table to show your suggestion. However, I think the storytelling element really is important to a lot of people in a human-interest topic like this. Moving the text to footnotes undermines serendipity, ie the chance stunmbling across of interesting information you never knew was there.OsFish (talk) 03:59, 21 December 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 15 January 2024

Samuel Little (né McDowell; June 7, 1940 – December 30, 2020) was an American serial killer who confessed to murdering 93 women between 1970 and 2005.[5] The Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI)'s Violent Criminal Apprehension Program (ViCAP) has confirmed Little's involvement in at least 60 of the 93 confessed murders, the largest number of confirmed victims for any serial killer in United States history.[2][6][7][8][9][10]

Edited by tmtb 87.212.245.221 (talk) 14:52, 15 January 2024 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. He's listed already, not sure what you're requesting by copy/pasting the first couple sentences from Little's page Cannolis (talk) 17:36, 15 January 2024 (UTC)

Charles Cullen

Add Charles Cullen. He is suspected of killing up to 400 and had 29 confirmed kills. 73.109.19.213 (talk) 05:11, 8 February 2024 (UTC)

It's under medical professionals. ~WikiOriginal-9~ (talk) 13:11, 8 February 2024 (UTC)

Add Hassan Orangi, known as the notorious killer

Serial killer of 62 women near Mashhad, Iran https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hassan_Orangi# Baraan.ian (talk) 19:10, 13 February 2024 (UTC)

Done. Added under groups. ~WikiOriginal-9~ (talk) 20:39, 13 February 2024 (UTC)

It was not added to the list Baraan.ian (talk) 08:39, 16 February 2024 (UTC)

The Bloody Benders

The Bloody Benders were a family of American serial killers that killed 11+ victims in-between 1871 and 1873. They lived in Labette County, Kansas. The family consisted of John Bender Sr., Elvira Bender, Kate Bender, and John Bender Jr. 2603:7080:D73D:F900:B0AC:304C:B4A6:AF (talk) 02:09, 12 March 2024 (UTC)

Add Danny Rolling, aka The Gainesville Ripper

In 1990, 5 University of Florida students were found slain over the course of a few days. — Preceding unsigned comment added by unknown (talk • contribs) some time before 02:09, 12 March 2024 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 12 April 2024

Dr Harold Shipman has 215 confirmed victims and 45 potential victims Abdhullah Azam (talk) 15:15, 12 April 2024 (UTC)

 Not done The Shipman Inquiry concluded that there were 218 confirmed and 250 potential. Martinevans123 (talk) 15:29, 12 April 2024 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 16 April 2024

Please immediately remove the WP:BLPCRIME violation at the "Hun Wanlin" entry at List of serial killers by number of victims#Medical professionals and pseudo-medical professionals, he is a living person not convicted of any murders see discussion at Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons/Noticeboard/Archive342#List of serial killers by number of victims Tikkenborg (talk) 04:19, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

 Not done: According to the page's protection level you should be able to edit the page yourself. If you seem to be unable to, please reopen the request with further details. '''[[User:CanonNi]]''' (talk|contribs) 05:21, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

Considering I was not confirmed until AFTER I made this request, some common sense would have been helpful. Tikkenborg (talk) 05:39, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

Removal of two multi-spree/mass killers

@Gawaon you reverted my edit, but committing two spree or mass murders does not make you a serial killer. You just have committed multiple sprees. Especially when considering one of them was arrested, and then "finished the job" after release. Sapphiremind (talk) 19:12, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

Well, the article defines a serial killer as "typically a person who murders three or more people, in two or more separate events over a period of time, for primarily psychological reasons." The two cases no doubt fulfil the first two criteria, so I guess the decisive issue are the "primarily psychological reasons". The article on William Unek describes him as "serial mass murderer who killed a total of 57 people in two separate spree killings three years apart", with serial killer linked. So that article at least seems to think that he was both a serial and a spree killer, and that sounds plausible enough.

The case of the perpetrator of the Meet al-Attar shooting seems less clear. The article is so vague that I find it impossible to gain any clarity on his motives. When in doubt, leaving him in seems the safer option. Gawaon (talk) 19:31, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 7 June 2024

Being one of the most twisted individuals in the annals of American criminal history. Albert Fish was a sadomasochistic serial killer rapist and cannibal who preyed on children. He would lure them into remote areas where he would rape, torture, murder and eat them. He is believed to have killed 15 or so victims, and raped/molested maybe 100 others. He used his job as a housepainter as a pretense for procuring and luring child victims, mostly from poor (underdeveloped) areas. Details of his crimes are extremely gruesome and shockingly perverse 182.69.182.128 (talk) 07:03, 7 June 2024 (UTC)

He's already in the list. Gawaon (talk) 08:12, 7 June 2024 (UTC)

Request removal of Kathleen Folbigg from list (28 June 2024)

As per her own Wikipedia article, Kathleen Folbigg (included on list of murdering >5 people) was falsely convicted of the murders of her children and has been released from prison. 175.36.12.183 (talk) 10:57, 26 June 2024 (UTC)

Done, thanks for letting us know! Gawaon (talk) 11:01, 26 June 2024 (UTC)

Request to add Jessica Fletcher

Would it be possible to add Jessica Fletcher out of Cabbot Maine? She killed 60+ people between 1984 and 1992. 50.212.92.161 (talk) 20:44, 23 July 2024 (UTC)

Ha, ha. No. Besides, it was her casual acquaintances or friends of friends that were the murderers. Nthep (talk) 20:50, 23 July 2024 (UTC)

Request to add Harald Shipman

was a british doctor suspected to kill as much as 215 patients of his. Unfortunately Police was able to gather evidence confirming only 15 kills, due to decomposition or cremation of most of his victims. 92.234.236.113 (talk) 21:19, 18 August 2024 (UTC)

Shipman is in the list for medical deaths further down. Knitsey (talk) 21:21, 18 August 2024 (UTC)