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User:Paintspot - Can Hong Kong and Macau honestly be said to be “freely associated” with China, a state of which they are integral parts and have no right to secede from? I don’t think so. Frenchmalawi (talk) 11:41, 16 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
The problem here was the (old) section heading "Non-sovereign and freely associated territories". This was always problematic, both because of the "and", and because some 'sovereign nations in free association' (like Palau) were not in that section. In December, I moved Niue and Cook Islands ('sovereign nations in free association (with NZ)') out of that section, into the main section. At the same time, I meant to also change the section's title header to "Non-sovereign territories" - but forgot. So I went ahead just now and changed this. The section is now titled "Non-sovereign territories", which should be clearer. Ross Finlayson (talk) 15:03, 16 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
However, this also begs the question of whether this sub-list of "Non-sovereign territories" should even be in this article about "List of sovereign states in 2018". Perhaps the article should be retitled (moved) to "List of sovereign states and non-sovereign territories in 2018"?? Ross Finlayson (talk) 15:03, 16 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
OK, I decided to be WP:BOLD and rename the whole article to "List of sovereign states and non-sovereign territories in 2018". Ross Finlayson (talk) 15:09, 16 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
User:Rsfinlayson - While I see no harm in the changes, I don’t think they go far enough. Why is Hong Kong listed? It is an integral part of the PRC. That’s not the case, for example, with Cayaman Islands in the case of the UK. Hong Kong is not on the list of colonies to be decolonized unlike Cayman either. Cayman has the right to self-determination. Hong Kong does not. Hong Kong really isn’t a territory at all. It is a region of China. The general problem I see is that the term “non-sovereign territory” is so ill defined here that apples and oranges are being listed together. Similarly, why is St. Martin (French) listed? It is an integral part of France and even the European Union. It does not have a right to secede. It does have some devolved powers, but so I too does Bavaria and Gujarat. There could be a legitimate place for a jurisdiction like Hong Kong on some kind of list broadly of this kind - perhaps owing to its treaty making powers - but the inaccurate listing of it alongside real territories like Cayman Islands is less than what we should strive for. For a place like St. Martin, unless the list is going to include all sorts of jurisdictional creatures (provinces, counties etc.), I can’t see why it would be listed at all. Frenchmalawi (talk) 11:13, 3 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
