Talk:List of state highways in Vermont/Archive 1

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Reformat

The new format had the effect of making the table bigger for no reason, and split U.S. Routes from their spurs. I see no reason to use it. --SPUI (T - C) 06:05, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

Your vandalism has been noted: [1] Seicer (talk) (contribs) 06:09, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
Now I see that under [Wikipedia:Requests for comment/History and geography], you list as a reason:
[Talk:List of Routes in Vermont] - should the table be bigger just for the sake of adding images? --SPUI (T - C) 06:07, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
Why could you not explain that above, or make a comment before doing a full revert? That circumvents the whole editing process, if a person's work is to be vandalised because of some false comment. For instance, you made no mention of the whole shield issue. You then stated that "F5 exists" - when it did exist on the new route listing. Take it to discussion first before vandalising or engaging in revert wars - something you should be well familar with by now. Seicer (talk) (contribs) 06:16, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
You have F5 listed as decommissioned. --SPUI (T - C) 06:17, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
It was listed as decommissioned under the old format. This can be changed in a matter of a minute, which I will demostrate. Seicer (talk) (contribs) 06:19, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

Additionally, your format requires a lot of work to modify if a new route is added. --SPUI (T - C) 06:16, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

As does most tables. I'm quite certain that Vermont does not add new routes on a daily, weekly, or even a monthly basis. It takes only two minutes to do a full change, adding a route to the top of the list. (Trust me, I've had to go in and do that for Vermont.) Seicer (talk) (contribs) 06:19, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
The old format takes no work. Your format is bigger for the sake of being bigger. --SPUI (T - C) 06:27, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
Sure it takes work. When one column becomes exaggerated in length and where a user cannot easily click on the highway because it is in a non-user friendly format, features a dated design, and uses "VT 5" as its only identifying marking, its not going to appeal to anyone other than "roadgeeks." The new format features logos which enables those who wish to see a graphical representation of the route to see it. It's also easier to find, now that the routes have been categorized, similar to what have been done for other state highway projects. If you are objecting to the "size" of the logo, note that a global search-and-replace can be done to reduce the size to something smaller, but still readable - 30 px? My other reasonings for the change are listed elsewhere. Seicer (talk) (contribs) 06:30, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
If someone has trouble finding a number in numerical order, we don't cater to them. --SPUI (T - C) 06:33, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
I'll admit -- the idea of pictures does actually have some appeal, for me, but as they currently stand, they render the page very difficult to use. Having a more horizontal arrangement (rows instead of columns), along with smaller icons, might help. Given a strict choice between this and SPUI's previous version, I'm a bit more inclined to the latter of the two. Run with the pictures, see if you can make them work, but for the time being I don't think they are. Good luck, and I hope you two can solve this peacefully. :) Luna Santin 06:39, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
I'll see what I can do. I originally had them coloured different but can easily change them with global search-and-replaces and downsize the image. I don't have much free time next week and I'll be out-of-town, but I'll see what I can do. Seicer (talk) (contribs) 06:43, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
That's nice. Wikipedia caters to all users, and as such, we must make every page on Wikipedia accessible to every user, whether they are old or young, "roadgeeks" or "tourists." See WP:MS:
It is worth noting something which is obvious in one country or nation may not be so in another. Wikipedia is intended to be read by anyone over the world. If such things occur, that kind of style or formatting, even if it is standard, should not be used for clarity purposes.
Seicer (talk) (contribs) 06:43, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
Resized the images from 40px to 30px, and added a "70px" height style. Please discuss: Seicer (talk) (contribs) 06:46, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
Same issues. --SPUI (T - C) 06:48, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
So your issue is currently with the state route list? That was what Luna Santin was stating above, from what I inferred. My suggestion is, and this is to be discussed first for a period of one week or until we can come to a consensus: What should be done to improve the state route list? It is very difficult to organize the state route list, as long as it is, without having just a gigantic list that would degrade readability. Seicer (talk) (contribs) 07:02, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
Reverting to the previous version would improve it. --SPUI (T - C) 07:56, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
That is no longer an option. Work is being done to improve the existing table, but the functionality and the updates and work is staying. Seicer (talk) (contribs) 13:51, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
4 coming after 3 is obvious to all literate people. --SPUI (T - C) 06:43, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

By the way, California editors decided to remove images from their list a while back. --SPUI (T - C) 06:43, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

As the creator of the table used prior to the existing one and the leader of the Vermont Routes WikiProject, I feel that I have a say in this issue. Personally, I preferred the older format, which listed every road in Vermont by number regardless of status (Interstate, U.S. route, Vermont Route). Why do I prefer that? Mainly because there is no overlapping of numbers in the state of Vermont, so separating them makes no sense. It also makes it easier for me, as both a user and editor, to see the progression of route numbers in the state. The older version was also much more quick and concise, without the added complexity of shields or sections by highway type. I agree with SPUI on this, that if you can't identify a route by its number, then you shouldn't be on this page to begin with. --TMF T - C 14:06, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

While I do take your comments seriously, what would you suggest be done to improve the table? Citing WP:MS, the design must be made clear and concise to all users, not just those with "road knowledge" (e.g. "roadgeeks"). Would a design, spelling out "Vermont State Route XX" be more approperiate, broken down into three column headings? I'm hesistant to use "VT XX" here without a shield since some users may not understand that "VT" is meant to represent a state route. Ditto with "SR". Seicer (talk) (contribs) 14:13, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
Playing around with the table design and using the checkered layout that Atanamir suggested, what do you think of the wider tables and less prominence of the image? The route is also spelled out: User:Seicer/sandbox1#Current
Two designs I've played around with: one uses graphics, the other does not. Both spell out the route, such as "Vermont State Route XX". See Seicer (talk) (contribs) 14:53, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

A simpler table with at most 4 columns would be my preference. The columns could be grouped by number clusters, e.g. 1-29 / 30-99 / 100-199 / 200-399. Shield images might be ok if they aren't too big. Also, as in most New England states, all routes regardless of type are on equal footing and I would prefer to not separate out the Interstates and US Routes. --Polaron | Talk 15:33, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

Essentially design 1 and design 1A? Seicer (talk) (contribs) 15:42, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
Yes, either 1 or 1A would be my preference. --Polaron | Talk 15:49, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
I implemented Design 1A to gauge the reaction. It turned quite nice and is easily editable (since that was one comment raised about the old design). Seicer (talk) (contribs) 16:41, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
1A is pretty good, though I'd even out the columns a bit and add U.S. Routes, Interstates, and former routes back in. --SPUI (T - C) 17:18, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
My only qualm about mixing the classifications in, is you would lose the description field for the interstates and US highways. Plus by mixing in the routes together, I would think it would become very messy, similar to List of Washington State Routes, where they are categorized by first number only (e.g. 100 comes before 20). Seicer (talk) (contribs) 17:23, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
I fully agree with SPUI. As I stated earlier, there's no significant overlapping of numbers among Interstates, U.S. Routes and state routes in Vermont, so there's no reason to put them in their own tables. --TMF T - C 17:27, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
(post-edit conflict) There was never a description field for them in the previous table (referring to the original prior to the changes over the past few days), so that's not a concern. As for the messiness, I see no reason why that has to happen here. To me, listing the routes by number (...VT 3A, US 4, VT 4A...) makes the most sense. --TMF T - C 17:27, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

Descriptions

Added Interstate descriptions to the page. Please correct any if they are a bit too short or stubby. If someone can, please add some for the US Highway list and any other names that the highway falls under while in the state of Vermont. Thanks! Seicer (talk) (contribs) 07:00, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

Responding to RfC

I have looked over some of the other state route pages, and the only one that I see using icons of the route signs is Kansas. More importantly than consistency, though, these icons are fundamentally redundant. The user is left with the impression that the text should not be there, but the text is far easier to edit. I agree that a list of route numbers should not need to be edited very often, but I think it is essentially a bad policy for us to ossify a page on the grounds that no one will need to change it later. Ethan Mitchell 01:03, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

This position has also been echoed by SPUI, and to a lesser extent, myself, in the sections above this one. --TMF T - C 01:47, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
I just noticed that it was SPUI who posted the RfC, so that makes part of my comment moot. =) --TMF T - C 01:51, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

VT F-5

The true route number of the ferry approach route in Charlotte is "Vermont Route F-5", not "Vermont Route F5". See [2]. More pictures proving this point can be found by typing in "vt f-5" into a Google image search. That said, I'll make the necessary changes on the list page. --TMF T - C 04:26, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

F routes

  • F1?
  • F2?
  • F3 Grand Isle Ferry (US 2 at Keeler Bay to US 2 south of Grand Isle via Gordon Landing) - now 314
  • F4? Burlington Ferry
  • F5 Essex Ferry (US 7 east of Charlotte to ferry)
  • F6?
  • F7 ? (US 7 in Vergennes to ferry?)
  • F8?
  • F9 (22A at Shoreham to 22A west of Orwell via Larrabees Point)
  • F10 (22A west of Orwell to Chipman Point)
Should these F route descriptions go into their own seperate pages? In other words, is there enough content to warrant a seperate page? Seicer (talk) (contribs) 18:28, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
I don't think there's enough to warrant a separate page (as they are only ferry routes), but perhaps someone from Vermont could shed more light on this issue. On a related note, VT 67A connector is no longer a current route; it was decommissioned in 20032004 and is now part of VT 279. --TMF T - C 19:13, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
They are/were approaches to ferries, not just the ferries. They could be covered in articles about the ferries. --SPUI (T - C) 17:14, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

Reorganizing below:

"From" and "To" columns are the earliest known endpoints of the route. Later termini changes and renumberings are noted.

Route From To Formed Notes
Vermont Route F-1
Vermont Route F-2 Isle La Motte US 2, South Alburg by 1935 Renumbered to VT 129 by 1947
Vermont Route F-3 Gordon Landing US 2, Keeler Bay by 1935 Extended north to US 2 south of Grand Isle by 1947; renumbered to VT 314 between 1956[3] and 1964
Vermont Route F-4
Vermont Route F-5 Charlotte US 7, Charlotte by 1930 Active
Vermont Route F-6 Adams Ferry Rd, Panton VT 22A, Vergennes by 1930
Vermont Route F-7 Chimney Point VT 22A, Addison 1927 Renumbered to VT 17 by 1930
Vermont Route F-8 Bridport by 1930
Vermont Route F-9 Larrabees Point VT 30, Whiting by 1927
  • Extended south over VT F-10A in 1931
  • Rerouted east of Shoreham to follow VT F-9A by 1947
  • Extended east over VT F-10 (overlap) at least through Orwell and probably to Brandon in the late 1940s[4][5]
  • Entirely replaced VT F-10 east of Orwell by 1952
  • Renumbered to VT 74 (Larrabees Point-Cornwall) and VT 73 (Larrabees Point-Brandon) between 1952 and 1956
Vermont Route F-9A F-9/VT 22A, Shoreham VT 30, Cornwall by 1930 Became part of a rerouted VT F-9 by 1947
Vermont Route F-10 Chipmans Point US 7, Brandon by 1930 Truncated to Orwell by 1952; renumbered to VT 73A by 1964
Vermont Route F-10A Larrabees Point VT 22A/F-10, Orwell by 1930 Renumbered as an extension of F-9 in 1931
  • F-1: unclear - the only ferry north of F-2 in 1935 carried US 2 to Rouses Point
  • F-4: likely modern VT 127 (Burlington-Port Kent Ferry still active) - 127 was in place by 1947
  • F-6: possibly Panton and Basin Harbor Roads west of VT 22A in Vergennes (Westport-Vergennes ferry was active in 1935)
  • F-8: possibly Crown Point Road west of VT 22A in Brigport - the road opposite it on the NY side is named "Old Ferry Road" (no ferries shown in 1935)
  • F-9A: early designation for VT 73 between Larrabees Point and F-10? --TMF Let's Go Mets - Stats 09:15, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

191

An editor has captioned a sign in the article for 191 as "ending" in Newport. Nice to have a photo BTW. Anyway, I thought roads were described from west to east. This would not make a whole lot of sense in this case because the road starts at I-91 (east of the sign) (thus its numbering). So the sign would actually be the beginning of the road. While hardly a serious problem, I think it can trigger a useful discussion.

Second, while better than no picture at all, the road is not typical being so short (two miles long?). VT 100 might be a better candidate, for example. But the west-to-east thing, regardless of Interstate connection, is the one I would like to see discussed. If no interest here, I will take it to some road Project. Thanks. Student7 (talk) 14:52, 25 December 2008 (UTC)

Did Vermont Route 104B ever exist?

I have noticed that User:Polaron has one again added the Vermont Route 104B row to the List of state highways in Vermont article. There needs to either be a citation or dates as to when VT 104B existed, or I will revert the list back again, because not only is it not justified, but there isn't even a shield.

HighwayMaster (talk) 22:15, 12 July 2010 (UTC)

The lack of a marker graphic is not really a reason to oppose inclusion on the list. Give me 5 minutes with the VT marker template, and it will exist. Imzadi 1979 → 00:25, 13 July 2010 (UTC)
VT 104B was the original designation of VT 78 between Swanton and Sheldon Junction, as shown in the 1938 Green Book. As for the shield...since it existed before 1995, it should be a circle sign, not one of the newer green ones. – TMF 00:31, 13 July 2010 (UTC)
And if you had bothered to check the historic town maps linked from the Vermont project page, you would have seen this 1949 map of Swanton, which clearly shows VT 104B. Generally, if a list has a route - whether the link to the route is a red link or not, whether it has a shield or not - there's a reason why it's there. – TMF 00:54, 13 July 2010 (UTC)

Thanks! HighwayMaster (talk) 00:00, 13 July 2010 (UTC)

Class 1 vs. Class 2 Town Highways

I intend at some point to do some revision of this article to make a clearer distinction between Class 1 Town Highways and Class 2 Town Highways, as the existing article is not completely clear on it and there are some important distinctions that are incorrect in the article. For example, Class 1 Town Highways, while town-maintained, are officially considered extensions of state highways, per Section 19 V.S.A. § 302 of the state statutes. They are, per current policy, also signed with the newer green route shield versus the circle shield, though you can still find some circle shields out in the field today (there's one in the town next to ours on a Class 1 road). Ajfroggie (talk) 16:08, 18 August 2014 (UTC)

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