Talk:List of vegetarians/Archive 1

Hitler

Seeing that there is some controversy over the vegetarianism of Adolf Hitler, perhaps we should remove him from this page entirely? I removed a sentence that flatly stated that he was not a vegetarian, added him back to the list, and then added a link to the Vegetarianism of Adolf Hitler. Nevertheless, I sure hate leaving him in a list with Einstein. Any thoughts? -- Bartledan (talk) 22:56, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

I see that this page is threatened. Why would it matter if it stayed up? If it's so useless and adds nothing to the encyclopedia, why does it keep getting visited? Today, by me...tommorrow, by someone else. It's useful to know which notable figures are vegan/vegetarian. As a vegan, I feel it provides inspiration and some perspective on the "difficulties" of living cruelty-free. If an NBA star can do it, so can others. If not, at least reading about why others you hear about daily on the tele can provide some insight. Frankly, no one on this thing wants to hear what I say. They don't know my face or the type of life I live. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.117.200.163 (talk) 19:22, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

deleting Hitler would not be encyclopedian —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.164.238.230 (talk) 15:56, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

Whether he's on a list with Einstein is irrelevant. No-one is claiming Hitler is a nice guy, but it is unilaterally agreed he adopted a vegetarian lifestyle to some degree, the debate is to what extent. It's not up to Wikipedia editors to decide who is vegetarian or not. There is evidence for and against in this case so the proper thing to do is clarify Hitler's position on the list. I've added a note next to his name with a link to the wikipedia article on the subject, and that way people can determine for themselves how to regard Hitler's purported vegetarianism. Betty Logan (talk) 02:28, 21 January 2009 (UTC)

It's a fact, and history is important. I'm in agreement with Betty Logan. All Hail Wikipedia, Wikia is the enemy. (talk) 13:50, 13 March 2009 (UTC)

BERIA (STALIN'S MASS MURDERER)

Perhaps you could consider adding Beria. Ref "Stalin, The Court Of The Red Tsar". Simon Sebag Montefiore. Phonenix Press, 2003. Sorry I don't have the page, but if someone wants it, I'll re-read it.

As for the question as to why we have this page at all. I find the subject very interesting, and it does help in studying the issue. I once asked a vegetarian why she was one, and her answer was "it makes you a much gentler person." I pointed out that both Hitler and Himmler were vegetarians, and she was very surprised to find her core belief threatened. Perhaps the page should include Himmler who took up vegetarianism to imitate his master. BogongMoth (talk) 23:57, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

Is not sure that Hitler was vegetarian. Some historians has references to confirm or deny it. In adition, a lot of great persons were vegetarians by ethics (Da Vinci, Gandhi, Einstein, etc). Einstein said that it makes you change to be a better person. If one crazy killer as Hitler was vegetarian by health reasons (if he really was) doesn't change anything. Greetings. 85.50.101.22 (talk) 05:51, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

In Noel Fielding's page the bit saying he is a vegetarian has been removed due to lack of substantial evidence. I thought it best to remove this one too (no trouble to add it in again if someone can come up with the source). catherinespark(talk) 11:21, 25th November 2008 (UTC)

Not only this, but Hitler was from Austria! Not Germany! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.144.243.209 (talk) 18:44, 7 January 2009 (UTC)

Vajpayee

Vajpayee (former prime minister of India) is not a vegetarian. See http://www.hinduonnet.com/thehindu/2000/09/10/stories/03100006.htm —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.234.176.84 (talk) 03:10, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

United States Vegetarians - Mary Mo should be deleted

"Mary Mo...she's a vegetarian." is just a song lyric, and I think Mary is a fictitious person, and even if she's real, I don't think she's famous enough to be on this list. I'm going to delete her in a couple days if nobody convinces me otherwise. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sorenlarrington (talk • contribs) 20:21, 11 February 2009 (UTC)

I agree. Delete away!-Andrew c ^[talk] 22:32, 11 February 2009 (UTC)

This article is lacking references

Every name on this list should have a reference to an independent reliable source demonstrating the fact being claimed. Chillum 20:31, 21 March 2009 (UTC)

I totally agree. I am currently working (slowly but surely) on adding references for all of the vegans on the list of vegans and afterwords may do so for this page as well. However, I have my doubts about this page. Should it even exist? There are thousands of vegetarians--too many for a single article. (Isn't that what categories are for?) n-k, 04:09, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

It's unreasonable to expect one person or a group of people to do it. I think all the unreferenced names should be removed, and if people want to resubmit them to the article they can do so but they must have a reference. The fact is names shouldn't have been added to the list without a reference anyway, just lazy editing and it shouldn't be accommodated. Betty Logan (talk) 11:55, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

Last month I noticed this article had a large number of redlinks due to non-notable anonymous editors adding themselves (presumably). I did some minor clean up then, and I've been watching the article since to be the "gate keepers" so to say, to make sure all new additions are sources. It's a start, for sure, but I haven't had the chance (or will) to go through the list. I think at the very least, the main article should have a sourced statement regarding their diet for the person to be included here (and then copying over the source here shouldn't be that hard). Anyone that doesn't have a source mention of "vegetarianism" in their main article or here should be removed for sure. -Andrew c ^[talk] 00:42, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

Yes I've noticed you manning the fort Andrew. I certainly think there should be no more additions unless they are sourced and remove all names where the person's vegetarian diet isn't mentioned in the corresponding article. Betty Logan (talk) 01:10, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

I've made a start and worked through the Australians and Canadians. All I did was a quick word search. In some cases no mention is made in the article but the article has been put in "Australian vegans" category for example without any source to back it up. I have left such people on the list. I have only removed people where there is absolutely no mention of their diet. Eventually, such articles where the information is unsourced will have to edited, but we may as well just focus on this list and make sure they correspond with the respective articles for the time being. Betty Logan (talk) 01:29, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

I also support the removal of all unreferenced names on this list. It is better to have less information than it is to have wrong information. I agree it is a good idea to start with the most blatant violations and work our way towards the more borderline cases. Chillum 01:40, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

I've worked through the whole list now. The list up to this point at least corresponds with the articles, although many of them are unsourced. If any other names are removed then the corresponding articles will have to be addressed too. No more names should be added without a reputable source, regardless of what it says on their wikipedia article. Betty Logan (talk) 03:08, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

I've worked down the list up to Keith Murray on US Vegetarians removing unsourced claims from the respective articles, and subsequently from the list. The only ones I left without sources were those that had 'fact' markers next to the claim and those where the claims were very integrated into their work or lifestyles. All the others have sources that can be copied over. Of course there is nothing to stop people reverting my edits on those articles, but the names won't be re-added to this list without a source. I still have the remainder of US Vegetarians to cull which is a pretty big section, but once those are done the sources can be copied over. Betty Logan (talk) 15:38, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

Good work Betty. This reminds me of my effort at List of companies of India. After finishing I found that 43.5% of the article was either unverified or just plain wrong. It has fallen back into old habits a bit since then but is still much better than before. Chillum 16:04, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

See also User:Chillum/Wikilinks_are_not_references#Notes. Chillum 16:06, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

I'm not a big fan of the 'fact' tag either, especially now it seems to be becoming a common alternative to actually finding a source. I don't mind them in a transition role (i.e. re-writes, broken links etc) but such names will eventually be taken off the list if a reference isn't found for the person. I've even temporarily changed the introduction to ask people to include a reference for any further additions and yet only one person has actually bothered to include one! I'll cull US vegetarians over the week and then at least with the odd exception the names on the list will have sources on their articles that can can be verified and copied over. Betty Logan (talk) 16:50, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

In the old days there was not bot going around putting dates on them. At least now we can tell when a tag is 6 months old. I think {{fact}} tags are for things that need a citation but have not yet been challenged. Chillum 16:56, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

I have finished removing most of the unreferenced names, and the article is ready for the sources to be copied over. The sources need to be checked that they:

1. work
2. say what they claim
3. and that the person is in the correct section i.e. vegan/vegetarian/pescetarian

Names are still being added without references despite the request, so if an unreferenced name is added to the list please revert. Betty Logan (talk) 23:58, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

There were a few unreferenced Germans. I cannot find any reference except for their respective Wikipedia article. I added a citation needed there, and hope that someone will cite a good reference.Kayau (talk) 11:05, 11 April 2009 (UTC)

I have removed the unreferenced Germans keeping with the consensus that the names will be removed form the list if a source isn't provided in the main article. Betty Logan (talk) 15:44, 11 April 2009 (UTC)

I have finished copying all the references over from the name articles today, so every single name on the list is now sourced. Any further additions will be removed if not accompanied by a reference, so please keep an eye on the article. Betty Logan (talk) 15:44, 11 April 2009 (UTC)

Pescetarians

The list contains the occasional pescetarian (people who don't eat meat but each fish), and I was wondering whether the list should include pescetarians. The argument for their inclusion is that pescetarians are colloquially known as "semi-vegetarian", so in that sense you might expect to find semi-vegetarians on the list. The argument against their inclusion is that by definition they are not vegetarians. Including them on the list would be like including normal vegetarians on a vegan list.

So the argument boils down to the fact that they aren't technically vegetarian, but in terms of a list of vegetarians you still might expect to find them here. It's worth bearing in mind:

1. the Vegetarianism article links to this list, which acknowledges pescetarianism is sometimes regarded as semi-vegetarianism, but makes the distinction clear;
2. the article on Semi-vegetarianism doesn't link to this list;
3. the list doesn't impose a strict inclusion criteria, so there is nothing in the introduction to bar the inclusion of people who follow a pescetarian/semi-vegetarian diet.

While copying the sources across I am including pescetarians and making it explicit in brackets next to the name, but it would be great to get a consensus on this issue. I'm happy either way, but my personal preference would be to include a list of pescetarians on their respective article since there isn't that many rather than conflating the two categories, and just include a link to the pescetarian list on the article. Betty Logan (talk) 08:24, 5 April 2009 (UTC)

Since no-one has expressed an opinion either way I will proceed with copying pesecetarians over to their own list on the pescetarian article after Easter. If anyone has any objections then please voice them here before Tuesday. Betty Logan (talk) 15:47, 11 April 2009 (UTC)

I've moved the pescetarians to Pescetarianism#List_of_pescetarians. There are only six of them so I've made it a section of the main Pescetarianism article. Betty Logan (talk) 18:41, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

Lapsed vegetarians

While copying the sources across I've notice one or two are now 'lapsed', that is people who were vegetarian and now aren't. For instance, Ben Gibbard used to be vegan but is now a pescetarian, both Jennifer Connelly and Meatloaf have given up their diets. Do you think their names should be included in the article? I've noted the current status next to their names, but I have my doubts that their names should be included at all. I guess the question is should it be a list of people who are vegetarian/were vegetarian up to their death, or were notably vegetarian at some point in their life? When it's unclear if someone is vegetarian but there is evidence for it then I'm for inclusion since the question on their status is open, but when the person in question explicitly says they no longer follow a vegetarian diet then I support the removal of their name from the list. Betty Logan (talk) 08:24, 5 April 2009 (UTC)

I have given this some though and decided it's probably better to include lapsed vegetarians. If names are removed I can envisage a scenario where a name is re-added with an out of date reference, giving the impression the person is still vegetarian. Betty Logan (talk) 15:49, 11 April 2009 (UTC)

Not Enough

I think someone should expand this article - add a few to say the least. H. G. Wells, Confucius, Pythagoras, Louisa May Alcott, Lao Tsu, Charlotte Bronte, Sir Issac Newton and Mark Twain are so famous, they really deserve their place!Kayau (talk) 13:27, 7 April 2009 (UTC)

If you can find appropriate citations by all means add them! Betty Logan (talk) 13:31, 7 April 2009 (UTC)

OK, they are all here now. I added them all earlier.Kayau (talk) 11:08, 11 April 2009 (UTC)

Ouch! Yikes! Just see how feeble our list is. Go to Category:Vegetarians! I was flabbergasted at how much we DON'T have here! Kayau (talk) 03:01, 18 June 2009 (UTC)

That should have been Category:Vegetarians. For some reason they didn't show the link.Kayau (talk) 03:02, 18 June 2009 (UTC)

Dutch Vegetarians

There are some names on the list that do not have their own articles, but nevertheless are referenced. In keeping with the consensus on this article, people that do not have their own articles (i.e red link names) should be removed. However, given that the list is now fully sourced, then all the Dutch names must at least be noteworthy enough to be referenced. On that account I'm personally for keeping the names provided they are referenced, whether they have Wikipedia articles or not. Anybody else have an opinion on this? Betty Logan (talk) 15:55, 11 April 2009 (UTC) If they are proved to be notable, prehaps someone could write a stub about them. If they are not, we ought to delete them!Kayau (talk) 03:15, 12 April 2009 (UTC)

I think you are probably right, no reason why we should make an exception for the Dutch.Betty Logan (talk) 14:11, 16 April 2009 (UTC)

Here are the Dutch names I've removed. I am storing them here to keep the references. If you want to restore them write the article first - if they're not noteworthy enough to have an article then they're probably not noteworthy enough to be included on a list of noteworthy vegetarians:

• Wesley Dorrius a.k.a. DJ Wesdex, deejay
• Anna Drijver (1983-) , actress and model
• Johan Messchaert (1857-1922), concert singer
• Saskia Slegers a.k.a. Miss Djax, deejay and record producer
• Aad Steylen (1935-), athlete
• Martine van den Toorn-van Dam (1941-), writer
• Titia Klasina Elisabeth van der Tuuk (1854-1939), feminist and writer
• Noah Valentyn (1982-) , actor and model
• Sanne Vogel (1984-) , actress
• Dafne Westerhof, animal rights activist
• Martine Wittop Koning (1870-1963) , writer and cook

Betty Logan (talk) 14:22, 16 April 2009 (UTC)

Obvious Vegetarians

Some people greatly promote the vegetarian lifestyle and they are obviously vegetarians. However, should they be included in this article? Some of those people are:

• John Robbins
• Dr. T. Colin Campbell
• Supreme Master Ching Hai
• Dr. Simon Chau

We have all heard of them being vegetarians, but these most obvious people are seldom written as 'vegetarian' because it's like common sense that they would be. Does anyone agree of disagree putting them here?Kayau (talk) 03:11, 12 April 2009 (UTC)

Ultimately this is a list of people who are vegetarians, so there does need to be an explicit statement that they advocated the vegetarian diet at some point (animal rights activism isn't enough because sometimes people eat meat and campaign for animal rights etc). If you are not sure, bring the reference to this talk page for discussion and then other editors can offer their opinion.

As for the names you brought up, if they have their own article on Wikipedia they are eligible for inclusion provided you can provide an independent reference. John Robbins and Simon Chau can certainly be added if a citation can be found. In the case of T.Colin Campbell I would say no because he is not notable, it is just his book that is notable. For Ching Hai the case is complicated. I removed her the first time because you added a link to the Wikipedia article as a reference and a citation must be independent of Wikipedia. Also there is a 'merge' template on the Ching Hai article which means she might not be notable enough for a Wikipedia entry, so my suggestion is to wait on the outcome of that and then add her if the decision is to keep the article. Betty Logan (talk) 09:41, 12 April 2009 (UTC)

I added the merge template, in fact. I thought you cancelled CH for the first time becuase she isn't notable. Kayau (talk) 03:57, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

I should have included a more specific summary, but I was making mass changes to the article at the time. Also, it was your first day of editing this article so I didn't know if you'd be back. I deleted her at the time because you used her Wikipedia article as a reference, but a reference has to be a source external to Wikipedia. At the moment she has her own article so she is eligible, so if you include a proper reference stating her vegetarian status or of her advocating the vegetarian lifestyle I have no objection to you adding her to the list - I certainly wouldn't delete her if she was properly cited.Betty Logan (talk) 18:18, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

Babara Parham, What's wrong with eating meat?

This book has been referenced several times for a few of the names on the list. A book reference should include the page number so other editors can validate the information. Please will you update the references to include the page number for each person. Thanks. Betty Logan (talk) 13:53, 18 April 2009 (UTC)

There has been no response to my request for page numbers for the contributions that use the Barbara Parham reference. The purpose of a reference is to be able to verify a reference, and you can't expect somebody to read the entire book. I will list them here, and once the page numbers are found they can be restored to the article:

• William Shakespeare <ref>Babara Parham, ''What's wrong with eating meat?''</ref>
• Dr. Sun Yat-Sen <ref>Babara Parham, ''What's wrong with eating meat?''</ref>
• John Milton <ref>Babara Parham, ''What's wrong with eating meat?''</ref>

Betty Logan (talk) 16:47, 23 April 2009 (UTC)

I am sorry. Actually, I have the traditional Chinese version translated by Dr. Simon Chau. However Dr. Chau has also written a traditional chinese book that has similar information. I will refer to that book.

• William Shakespeare <ref>[[Simon Chau]], ''素食的挑戰'', P.62</ref>
• Dr. Sun Yat-Sen <ref>[[Simon Chau]], ''素食的挑戰'', P.62</ref>
• John Milton <ref>[[Simon Chau]], ''素食的挑戰'', P.62</ref>

I hope these famous people can be restored in the article. Kayau (talk) 15:08, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

I'm afraid those aren't acceptable sources. I'm pretty sure that if Shakespeare and Milton were vegetarians there would be English sources. Betty Logan (talk) 18:36, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

New Source for John Milton!

• John Milton <ref>http://www.ivu.org/history/renaissance/milton.html</ref>

Do you trust his own poems? Or is there still any doubt about it? (I hope not.) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Kayau (talk • contribs) 23:53, 29 May 2009 (UTC)

New Source for Dr. Sun Yat-Sen!

• Dr. Sun Yat-Sen <ref>http://www.bwwtc.edu.hk/subject/chi_hist/sw2/4.htm</ref>

Dr. Sun is a Chinese leader, you see, not British or American. Is it not reasonable to use a traditional Chinese website —Preceding unsigned comment added by Kayau (talk • contribs) 23:58, 29 May 2009 (UTC)

New but unreliable source for William Shakespeare

http://www.naturalhealingcenter.com/famous_vegetarians.htm (I didn't bother making a new one because it's unreliable) Kayau (talk) 00:03, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

Sorry, wrong link http://www.naturalhealingcenter.com/famous_vegetarians.htm Kayau (talk) 00:04, 30 May 2009 (UTC) There are many sources I found on google that state that shakespeare is vegetarian, but none is reliable. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Kayau (talk • contribs) 00:07, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

I'm afraid it is not ok to use a Chinese reference because we don't use the Chinese alphabet so the Chinese text just comes out as gobble-de-gook on Western computers so we can not validate a reference. A German reference would be acceptable for a German person, or a Portuguese reference for a Portuguese person because the alphabet is the same, so even though it is in a foreign language the reference can still be checked. That's not the case for Chinese references because the text doesn't show up properly on the English language Wikipedias. The references have to be able to be verified, and they have to come from an objective source i.e. a biography of the person; a newspaper; or even an official website. I actually strongly suspect Shakespeare was not a vegetarian because there are extensive biographies of him in Briatin and none of them mention it. Betty Logan (talk) 00:43, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

The Chinese website turns out to be a history website of a secondary school. Anyway, I don't understand why Chinese references can't be used. Articles like Opium War and Sun Yat-Sen itself have Chinese characters.Kayau (talk) 14:41, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

By the way, what about Milton? Kayau (talk) 14:46, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

The Opium War and Sun Yat-Sen article may include Chinese characters in their articles (which incidentally aren't legible on our computers) to give the equivalent Chinese terms but all the references use the Western alphabet. The references have to be verifiable - that is it has to provide enough information for me to locate the source which I can't do if they include a Chinese typography. If you want to use the Chinese typography maybe you are better sticking to Chinese Wikipedia that uses that typography - what's the point of putting something on the English version if we can't read it? As for Milton the same applies. Find a source that is verifiable. As it is school websites aren't verifiable sources unless they also publish their research like universities. Betty Logan (talk) 15:33, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

I am sorry, but I think you might have misunderstood. The Chinese history website was for Dr. Sun only. Milton's was from the International Vegetarian Union! In case it helps, this is the URL of the webpage again:

http://www.ivu.org/history/renaissance/milton.html Kayau (talk) 11:39, 31 May 2009 (UTC)

The IVU is fine as a reference, but the only problem there is that it doesn't actually say that Milton was vegetarian. Betty Logan (talk) 14:26, 31 May 2009 (UTC)

Unreliable Source? Supreme Master Ching Hai

I can well trust supreme master Ching Hai's site. I've seen Confucius and Lao-tzu in the International Vegetarian Union earlier. I'll add that. Kayau (talk) 12:08, 23 April 2009 (UTC) Please don't delete the information that was from supreme master's site. I will change them later.Kayau (talk) 12:14, 23 April 2009 (UTC)

No evidence that Shakespeare was a vegetarian

There are is no proof that H. G. Wells was a vegetarian. In his work A Modern Utopia he described a world without slaughterhouses but with fish eating. Louisa May Alcott was not a vegetarian, her father was. And so was her uncle William Alcott, the author of the book Vegetable Diet. I didn’t found any reliable source to support that Charlotte Bronte was also a vegetarian. She was compassionate towards animals but that’s not the same thing as being a vegetarian. Sir Isaac Newton was probably not a vegetarian in practice although he was in theory. Mark Twain was certainly a supporter of animal rights but I am not aware of any passage of his works that support the theory that he was a vegetarian (he is not even mentioned in any book of history of vegetarianism). There is no evidence that Shakespeare was a vegetarian. Never the less he has some interesting passages: http://www.animalrightshistory.org/timeline-renaissance/sha-william-shakespeare.htm. Just because a person is mentioned in a «Famous Vegetarians» list doesn’t mean he is a vegetarian. - Metello —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.139.150.160 (talk) 19:51, 23 April 2009 (UTC)

Someone has already expressed reservations about the "Supreme Master/God's direct contact" source that has been used to reference the likes of Shakespeare, Bronte, H'G Wells, Alcott etc. The Mark Twain claim is supported by a standard reference for this list so removing Twain on the grounds of an unreliable reference would compromise many others. However, I am not not at ease with the Supreme Master sources since I've never heard of it, and it seems to be a promotional website for a spiritual leader so its claims aren't impartial. On balance, I'm in favour of removing the names that use the Supreme Master/God's direct contact source, so if you want to do that I would support you. Betty Logan (talk) 20:22, 23 April 2009 (UTC)

I apologise if I caused any trouble with Sup. Mas.

Ching Hai. I hope everyone will change the sup mas Ching Hai references to international vegetarian union and happycow. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Kayau (talk • contribs) 14:15, 15 May 2009 (UTC)

Portuguese vegetarians deleted

Unfortunately the info about the Portuguese vegetarians I posted was constantly deleted. These included info about the Portuguese writer Jaime de Magalhães Lima (1859-1936) who was surely a vegetarian. Have a look: This is his essay on vegetarianism available on Gutenberg project:

http://www.gutenberg.org/files/24338/24338-8.txt

This is a link to a library were that book is available:

http://catalogo.rcbp.dglb.pt/ipac20/ipac.jsp?session=M23Y3137G8406.67&profile=rcbp&uri=link=3100027~!75509~!3100024~!3100022&aspect=advanced&menu=search&ri=1&source=~!dglb&term=O+vegetarismo+e+a+moralidade+das+ra%C3%A7as+%3A+Confer%C3%AAncia&index=TITLEI#focus

This is his bio from the Portuguese Wikipedia:

http://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jaime_de_Magalhães_Lima

So, why was he and many others deleted?

- Metello. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.139.150.160 (talk) 21:11, 23 April 2009 (UTC)

I have explained in the deletion summaries and on your talk page. All the names on this list are accompanied by Wikipedia articles about the person. Write the Wikipedia articles first and then add the names to the list. If they're not notable enough to have a Wikipedia artcile about them then they're not notable enough to be on the list. Betty Logan (talk) 21:16, 23 April 2009 (UTC)

Notability is relative. Jaime de Magalhães Lima is a great writer and an important historical figure, a friend of Tolstoy and Antero de Quental; and without any doubt much more notable than Paris Hilton, who was articles on Wikipedia just because she appears on TV. Fame is not the same as notability. Jaime de Magalhães Lima appears on the Portuguese encyclopedias and on books of notable Portuguese people. If he is not on the English version of Wikipedia (he is on the Portuguese version) maybe is Wikipedia who is failing. - Metello —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.139.150.160 (talk) 21:23, 23 April 2009 (UTC)

I would include Father Himalaya on the list, but Wikipedia doesn’t have an English article on this great scientist and pioneer! That’s unbelievable!

Here you have some info about him:

http://www.treehugger.com/files/2007/09/padre_himalaya_solar_energy.php

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=9401E5DE143AE733A25751C1A9659C946497D6CF

http://www.gses.it/pionieri/himalaya.php

Don’t tell me he isn’t notable enough to have an article on Wikipedia! - Metello —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.139.150.160 (talk) 21:33, 23 April 2009 (UTC)

The point is, if he's notable enough to have an article on Wikipedia then why isn't there one? If he's notbale then I would be more concerned that there isn't an article documenting his achievements than the fact he's not on a list of vegetarians. I noticed on your talk page that some of these people have artcicles on teh portuguesw Wikipedia. For the names that do have artciels on the Portuguese wikipedia I suggest you link to those instead.

example: Jaime de Magalhães Lima

code: [[:pt:Jaime de Magalhães Lima|Jaime de Magalhães Lima]]

Betty Logan (talk) 21:45, 23 April 2009 (UTC)

Ok. Thank you. How do I create an article for the other two? I am not inventing them! See:

Angelo Jorge: http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_7051/is_3_17/ai_n28416717/ http://www.quasi.com.pt/product_info.php?products_id=50872

Amílcar de Sousa (founder on the first vegetarian society in Portugal): http://www.centrovegetariano.org/Article-439-Vegetarianismo%2Bem%2BPortugal%253A%2Bum%2Bs%25E9culo%2Bde%2Bhist%25F3ria.html

- Metello —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.139.150.160 (talk) 22:09, 23 April 2009 (UTC)

If the people you want to add have corresponding articles on the Portuguese Wikipedia then the format is the same:

[[:pt:article name|article name]].

If they have articles on the Spanish Wikipedia then the code will be:

[[:es:article name|article name]].

You just need the language code at the start of each link so it knows which Wikipedia the article is on. If you have any problems getting the article to link, then by all means add the name and reference to the main article but list the names here with a link to the Wikipedia article and someone can sort it out. But you should be ok if you follow the above format. Betty Logan (talk) 01:35, 24 April 2009 (UTC)

What I mean is how do I create articles for those two individuals (Angelo Jorge and Amílcar de Sousa)? They don’t have Wikipedia articles in Portuguese yet. They could also have English articles, even if small ones based in the info I posted. Amílcar de Sousa was the founder of the first vegetarian society in Portugal and edited the first Portuguese vegetarian magazine “O Vegetariano.” He was even translated to Spanish. - Metello —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.139.150.160 (talk) 02:03, 24 April 2009 (UTC)

If they are not on any of the Wikipedias you can create the articles by typing their name into the search box on the left. The search engine will return "No article title matches" and will give you the option to create the page. You may need a user account to create a page but that will only take a minute to set up. Click on "Create the page" and write a brief bio of the person including a source for your information. It doesn't have to be big, a few lines about him such as date of birth, date of death, place of birtg/residence along with his notable achievements. Betty Logan (talk) 02:37, 24 April 2009 (UTC)

Howard Williams

There should be a Wikipedia article on Howard Williams: http://www.ivu.org/history/europe19b/williams.html, http://www.ivu.org/history/williams/index.html - Metello —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.139.150.160 (talk) 02:16, 24 April 2009 (UTC)

I created a page about Howard Williams, but I am having trouble putting the notes: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Howard_Wiliams

Try adding them now. I've added the references code to the notes section. Betty Logan (talk) 21:12, 24 April 2009 (UTC)

Thank you! - Metello

Unreliable source to Mark Twain

The source to Mark Twain’s vegetarianism it’s very unreliable as it doesn’t include any passage from his works (or a contemporary statement) to support the claim (http://www.happycow.net/famous/mark_twain/). The source to Louisa May Alcott’s vegetarianism its also a very unreliable un-sourced list : http://al.godsdirectcontact.org.tw/vg-vip/query/index.php?nation=American&category=art. So, I researched and found out Louisa was not a vegetarian:

“Whereas [Amos Bronson] Alcott remained a vegetarian for the rest of his life – refusing to consume milk, eggs, fish, meat, and cheese, or wear leather or woollen clothing – his wife and their four daughters were backsliders.” (Rynn Berry, Famous Vegetarians, Pythagorean Publishers, 2003, p. 133.)

The same goes to Charlotte Bronte; her only source is a list: http://al.godsdirectcontact.org.tw/vg-vip/query/index.php?nation=British&category=art. A more reliable source should be added. - Metello

Personally I think all the names using the "godsdirectcontact" references should be removed. It's a promotional site for a Chinese spiritual leader so does not satisfy Wikipedia's verifiability criteria. As for Twain, he is listed by "happycow" which is generally a reliable source so I recommend adding something like "(some sources contradict this claim)" after his name along with the contradictory sources.

I am not saying that something contradicts Twain’s’ supposed vegetarianism, I am saying that there’s no evidence to support it. Happycow is an excellent source for restaurants, but the famous vegetarians list doesn’t have much info to prove that all those persons are really vegetarians (for example, Happycow says Immanuel Kant was a vegetarian, and he certainly wasn’t). I have several books on animal rights and vegetarianism and I have also researched in the internet, to see if there is any truth to the claim that Mark Twain, which I greatly enjoy, was a vegetarian. I found out that he was a supporter of animal rights, he was against animal experimentation and bullfighting, he was a cat lover, but I didn’t saw a single reference to his diet. - Metello —Preceding unsigned comment added by Leonidas Metello (talk • contribs) 02:35, 25 April 2009 (UTC)

I appreciate that Happy Cow doesn't provide any evidence to substantiate the claim and therefore it is dubious, but you need to think of Wikipedia as a "centralisation of published information" rather than as presenting hard "facts". The Happy Cow site claims Twain is a vegetarian and Wikipedia merely publishes this claim. You can always add to the reference a note that the source does not provide any evidence to justify the claim. Ultimately anyone can check the reference for themselves and make their own minds up. If you want to remove him that's your perogative - I won't undo the edit if that's what you want to do since like you said there is no explicit evidence - but there is nothing to stop someone else coming along and putting him back in on the grounds that Happy Cow is considered a reliable source. Personally I would just add in a reference note that Happy Cow doesn't present any evidence that Twain is vegetarian. Betty Logan (talk) 03:20, 25 April 2009 (UTC)

Ok, I’m going to add notes on Louisa and Twain. I did it previously on Darwin and Emerson. - Metello —Preceding unsigned comment added by Leonidas Metello (talk • contribs) 13:53, 25 April 2009 (UTC)

In the case where you have added notes, I've made it more explicit by adding 'disputed' in brackets. Sometimes people just read the lists and don't bother checking the references so it should be clear from the list itself that the person's status is challenged. Betty Logan (talk) 19:03, 25 April 2009 (UTC)

That was a wise option. - Metello —Preceding unsigned comment added by Leonidas Metello (talk • contribs) 22:12, 25 April 2009 (UTC)

Watarianism and Breatharianism

Some people, such as Buddha, are known to be waterian or breatharian. Vegetarianism simply refers to the exclusion of animal products. Do waterians and breatharians qualify for the list? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Kayau (talk • contribs) 14:51, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

Anyone who doesn't eat meat qualifies. Vegans are on the list which is a subset of vegeteriansm, fruitarians would be allowed and basically anyone who doesn't consume animal meat. Milk for instance is an animal product and that is acceptable in a vegetarian diet. Betty Logan (talk) 02:15, 13 June 2009 (UTC)

Africa

africa a nation? I remove this if noone objects to this. if the nationality is unknown then what is the point of putting the person(s)on the list which is entirely based upon that criterion. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Hxasmirl (talk • contribs) 01:59, 13 June 2009 (UTC)

Well, his country doesn't exist now (Cartage), but now the area in where he born is Tunisia. Fixed. Akhran (talk) 10:48, 13 June 2009 (UTC)

In biographies the correct usage is to use the name of the place at the time of residency. In this instance there should be an entry under "Carthage" even though it doesn't exist anymore in the form it did then. Betty Logan (talk) 13:39, 13 June 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for the information, I didn't know that. Akhran (talk) 13:44, 13 June 2009 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but in that case, Confucius and Lao Tzu would be from the Zhou Dynasty, not China, because the word 'China' wasn't invented back then. People from the UK would end up as being from 'England', 'Britain', or 'Scotland', while some remain as UK. Will this recategorisation be necessary? Kayau (talk) 05:10, 19 June 2009 (UTC)

Controversial Vegetarians

I think it's funny to put people who are believed to be vegetarian alongside with the ones that are vegetarian. Therefore, I suggest opening a section/artical/whatever that lists the believed vegetarians so that they can be removed from the main list. Controversial Vegetarians would be a suitable name, since those people are mostly deceased. Kayau (talk) 10:20, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

The problem with that is that there is evidence that they are vegetarians, so that qualifies them for the list. You can't take someone off the list if there is evidence that they are vegetarian. The purpose of this article is to present the evidence for their vegetariansm and let people form their own judgements. Betty Logan (talk) 15:28, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

But there are also evidence AGAINST their vegetarianism, such as Hitler. Kayau (talk) 03:07, 18 June 2009 (UTC)

Ultimately the purpose of this list is to present evidence for the case that someone is vegetarian, and that evidence exists in the case of everyone on the list - even Hitler. It is not really Wikipedia's job to say who is vegetarian or who isn't - that's a POV - just to present evidence that is available. That evidence exists in the cases of people who might not be vegetarian (there is in fact more evidence that Hitler was vegetarian than there is of Einstein being vegetarian) so unless proof can be provided that these people definitely aren't vegetarians then they have a right to be on the list. There is a practical reason too, especially in cases where people stopped being vegetarians: if you take their names off the list, someone could re-add them with an outdated reference so it is better to include everyone who has been vegetarian or might be vegetarian and then it stays up to date and all the references stay together. Betty Logan (talk) 03:26, 18 June 2009 (UTC)

Jacky Cheung

For now, I won't restore Jacky Cheung yet, but I will store the reference here: <ref>[http://www.vegsochk.org/yueso/ys140/ys14002.php]{{Zh icon}}</ref> By the way, this website is the Hong Kong Vegetarian Society. Please help me judge whether it is reliable. Thank you very much. Kayau (talk) 02:56, 18 June 2009 (UTC) Oh, and in case it helps, he is in Category:Hong Kong vegetarians. Kayau (talk) 02:58, 18 June 2009 (UTC)

I've taken this to discussion. There isn't a problem with the reference, just how it displays. I think it would be ok if you add the reference but also include the google translation of the page as well so that people who can't see Chinese on their computers will be able to see the translation. Betty Logan (talk) 03:11, 18 June 2009 (UTC)

Just to confirm, the complete reference is <ref>[http://www.vegsochk.org/yueso/ys140/ys14002.php]{{Zh icon}}; [http://translate.google.com/translate?prev=hp&hl=en&js=n&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.vegsochk.org%2Fyueso%2Fys140%2Fys14002.php&sl=zh-CN&tl=en&history_state0= Translated Version]</ref> And appears as:

• Jacky Cheung

Kayau (talk) 03:21, 18 June 2009 (UTC)

Yeah, I think that's ok. Put it in and I will alter it if it needs fixing. Betty Logan (talk) 03:27, 18 June 2009 (UTC)

Shelley

Percy Bysshe Shelley was included. Why not Mary Shelley as well? She is listed in Happycow AND the IVU. Besides, Franstein's monster was vegetarian. See my website on [2] Kayau (talk) 05:17, 19 June 2009 (UTC)

Thomas Harris' Hannibal was a cannibal! A character in a story isn't proof of someone's real life diet. That said both IVU and HappyCow are reliable sources so if they claim that Shelly was vegetarian then you can cite them. Betty Logan (talk) 05:26, 19 June 2009 (UTC)

I greatly fear that I will cite wrongly and cause palavers like Jacky Cheung and the Help Centre, or Dr. Sun Yar-Sen and the Secondary School. Therefore, can you do it for me? Thanks. Kayau (talk) 13:53, 19 June 2009 (UTC)

It will be ok for you to add IVU and Mad Cow, they are reliable sources. If you add them I will check it later to makes sure it is done right.Betty Logan (talk) 14:49, 19 June 2009 (UTC)

I must point out that it's HappyCow, not Madcow! (LOL, you could have gotten the barnstar of good humour!) Kayau (talk) 11:48, 20 June 2009 (UTC)

Nietzsche Vegetarian

Nietzsche was a vegetarian, in severals biography book about the philosopher say that, but when I put this in the List someone delete it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 200.83.247.16 (talk) 20:05, 6 July 2009 (UTC)

I deleted it because you referenced a geocities website. Personal websites/blogs etc are not valid sources wherever they get the information from. If you have the book details i.e. author, title, year of publication, publisher, page number then add the book references instead because those would be acceptable references. Betty Logan (talk) 20:17, 6 July 2009 (UTC)

Please add a new section on the BOTTOM of the list. Thanks. All the best, Kayau (Talk to me! See what I've done! Sign my guestbook!) 00:29, 8 July 2009 (UTC)

Title of the Page

This point may sound somewhat trivial, but the title of this page should be changed to something like "List of prominent Vegetarians". --Ankurtg (talk) 03:43, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

Well you have a point, I'm not even sure whether we should call it "List of...". Both IVU and Happy Cow which this page sources a lot simply call their lists "Famous vegetarians". I would certainly back a name change to "Famous vegetarians" if everyone else agrees. Betty Logan (talk) 03:55, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

• I Object. I strongly disagree. Why don't you name this article Vegetarian Elites like sup mas Ching Hai? Of course not! Wikipedia has lots of lists, like List of English Novelists or whatnot. It belongs to a Wikipedia list. Its name must not be changed to anything without a 'list of...'!Kayau (talk) 10:15, 23 June 2009 (UTC)

By the way, get used to using * in this section because it is likely to turn into a pretty long discussion. Kayau (talk) 10:15, 23 June 2009 (UTC)

• So it doesn't... And see this.
• Right, I understand the convention. It makes it easy to find the article and provides a sense of uniformity. What about changing it to "List of Prominent/Famous Vegetarians" as I initially suggested? Does it fit into the scheme? Because it does sound a lot more logical. --Ankurtg (talk) 04:06, 14 July 2009 (UTC)

A Curious Problem

Umm... I've received an email from a famous person with her own article, and she told me that she's vegan. However, there are no other references availableon the internet to prove it. Are there no ways that I can I put that person on the list? All the best, Kayau (Talk to me! See what I've done! Sign my guestbook!) 03:44, 27 June 2009 (UTC)

I don't think they would be permissable. When I joined Wikipedia I tried referencing letters published on a beer enthusiast site but they were removed because they weren't a 'published' source. You could ask at Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard and see what they have to say. Betty Logan (talk) 18:35, 27 June 2009 (UTC)

That makes sense. (By the way, you sound less confident than before. Try to sound like you used to, before the Chinese refs thing!) All the best, Kayau (Talk to me! See what I've done! Sign my guestbook!) 01:30, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

See Also section move

Now, we don't expect people to fish around for the see also section that is sandwiched between a long list and an even longer ref-list. So, I would like to suggest moving the See Also section after the introduction. Here is an extraxt from a Wikipedia guildline: "When the list includes a short introduction and a longer list, it may be advisible to include a "See also" section, that shows related lists and articles, after the introduction and before the list." Please consider moving up the see also section. All the best, Kayau (Talk to me! See what I've done! Sign my guestbook!) 11:34, 5 July 2009 (UTC)

I don't have a preference either way. There is a "See also" already at the top so if you want to group them all together I don't have any objection. Betty Logan (talk) 12:08, 5 July 2009 (UTC)

Yes, I put the see also there, and that was exactly my intention. All the best, Kayau (Talk to me! See what I've done! Sign my guestbook!) 14:39, 5 July 2009 (UTC)

Michael Jackson

There is some controversy with Jackson's vegetariansim. Some say that he's a flexitarian (ie someone who occasionaly cheats a bit, and eat meat.) Do you think a dispute tag should be placed? Reference: Vegan World News All the best, Kayau (Talk to me! See what I've done! Sign my guestbook!) 11:34, 5 July 2009 (UTC)

That is personal blog posting so isn't a verifiable reference. However, if a reputable article can be found challenging Jacko's veggie status then it should be included and he should be tarred and feathered with a 'disputed' tag. Betty Logan (talk) 12:06, 5 July 2009 (UTC)

You call him 'Jacko'? All the best, Kayau (Talk to me! See what I've done! Sign my guestbook!) 14:40, 5 July 2009 (UTC)

The first ref stating Jackson's vegetarianism was not stated properly, and must be adjusted. The second ref, an external link, was a gossip website and didn't really say much. All the best, Kayau (Talk to me! See what I've done! Sign my guestbook!) 14:58, 5 July 2009 (UTC)

Blogs aren't reliable, but the IVU sure is: [3] All the best, Kayau (Talk to me! See what I've done! Sign my guestbook!) 15:03, 5 July 2009 (UTC)

The IVU ref is fine. Betty Logan (talk) 15:20, 5 July 2009 (UTC)

Supreme Master Television vs. Gods Direct Contact

Unlike god's dir. con., sup. mas. tv is run by sup. mas. Ching Hai's disciples, and provide enough evidence to support their vegetarianism. Some episodes even interview the vegetarians/vegans. And they didn't even say that Louisa was vegetarian in Louisa's episode of Models of Success. Should sup. mas. tv become a reliable source? All the best, Kayau (Talk to me! See what I've done! Sign my guestbook!) 14:52, 5 July 2009 (UTC)

I would say that reports run by Supreme Master TV are generally not verifiable sources because it is not a source of objective journalism or a recognised vegetarian authority, except in cases where they interview the person in question and the person clearly identifies themselves as vegetarian either by stating it or implicitly suggesting it by discussing their diet. In that case I would say that Supreme Masters TV is a satisfactory primary source. Betty Logan (talk) 15:15, 5 July 2009 (UTC)

Lisa Simpson

A certain IP would like to add the following person to the list:

• Lisa Simpson

There were no references, however, and it was not even listed properly (Simpson starts with an S, but it was put betweem two Adams!). If anyone is able to find a suitable reference, please restore it to the list. All the best, Kayau (Talk to me! See what I've done! Sign my guestbook!) 00:28, 8 July 2009 (UTC)

David Pearce

• David Pearce

I would like to contest David Pearce. I have not removed him from the list, but I would like to challenge his veganism: the reference simply said that he was vegan, without any evidence whatsoever. Any comments? All the best, Kayau (Talk to me! See what I've done! Sign my guestbook!) 10:15, 8 July 2009 (UTC)

First of all Kayau, if you are not satisfied by the verifibility and reliability of a reference you are perfectly entitled to remove it. Additions to the list are done through consensus. Secondly, a veriable source does not have to present 'evidence' (although it is nice to knowe here they get the information from) - after all they are the evidence! For instance, the IVU doesn't present evidence for all its names but they are permitted on here because IVU is a verifiable source. That is we accept it as being accurate in most cases, and an authority on vegetarianism. The question here is the Lifeboat Foundation a verifiable source? It is certainly not a verifiable third party source since it is not a recognised authority on vegetarianism and it is not a recognised journalistic source for reporting facts, so on the basis of that I think he should be removed or the reference replaced. Betty Logan (talk) 12:01, 8 July 2009 (UTC)

I've replaced the reference with an interview from his own website. Betty Logan (talk) 12:24, 8 July 2009 (UTC)

Featured List (continued)

Miss Logan, do you mean that all the refs should be formatted with the {{cite web}}, {{cite book}}, etc. citations? I didn't quite get it. Thanks. All the best, Kayau (Talk to me! See what I've done! Sign my guestbook!) 07:27, 14 July 2009 (UTC)

Well it doesn't have to be done that way, there are many different referencing styles. It's more to do with the actual information the references contain. The problem with web references is that many people use hyperlinks with the name of the page, and the reference doesn't show the url. Obviously you can just click the link, but I firmly believe you should be able to see the actual web address. For instance, if someone printed out the list the hyperlinks wouldn't work so the reference would be useless so the references should actually show the web address. In the case of books/articles the reference should also show the authors name as well, along with the publication date if available and the date it was accessed. For example if you look at the Mandy Smith reference, you could track down that information by just copying the reference out. However the one above it just gives a number (completely useless as a reference) and the one below it that just gives the title of the web page but not the address isn't much better. A reference is supposed to give the reader enough information to track down the source. The thing with the cite templates is that sometimes people want to include information that they don't accommodate so I'm against insisting on one specific style, but it would be better if there was some mimimal criteria for the references. Web addresses should be actually shown like http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_vegetarians rather than List of vegetarians or [4], the name of the author if there is one, and the name of the company/organisation, date of publication (if available), access date, and a page number for book references. All the references should be sorted by the author's surname like proper academic or book references. Betty Logan (talk) 08:15, 14 July 2009 (UTC)

I think I can recall seeing a Wikipedia guideline about references. I don't remember where it is, but you're the pro when it comes to references (and being pretty pernicketty about it! No, being nit-picking isn't always bad.) Maybe you could add a new reference guideline for use of the Veggie List ONLY. About the websites, I cannot bring myself to completely agree with you, but you have a point. If you give only the URL, I believe people might have difficulty trying the figure out where that source is from. We don't mind, but others might not know immediately what IVU stands for. In Vehicle Units or the Irish Veterinary Union aren't exactly reliable sources. (The use of humour isn't bad - there's a plenty of it at WikiProject Wikipedia Awards!) Kayau Jane Eyre PRIDE AND PREJUDICE les miserables 10:48, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

I'm not saying that the name of the site or the article should be excluded, rather that the url should also be clear. For instance a happycow reference could look like "Happy Cow. 1999. HappyCow's Famous Vegetarians. [Online] (Updated 2009) Available at http://www.happycow.net/famous_vegetarians.html. [Accessed 15 July 2009</nowiki>]". Betty Logan (talk) 08:15, 14 July 2009 (UTC)

Citations for World Wide Web articles typically include:

• the name of the author or authors,
• the title of the article in quotes,
• the name of the website (linked to a Wikipedia article about the site if it exists, or to *Website's "about page"),
• date of publication,
• page number(s) (if applicable),
• the date you retrieved it (invisible to the reader if the article has a date of publication),
• an optional short quote (used rarely, if the source is likely to be challenged)

(adapted from a guideline.) See, no URL. Kayau |Jane Eyre| PRIDE AND PREJUDICE| les miserables 02:34, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

That is true, but I think that's a shortcoming in the policy. For instance, if all you had was a printout of the list then you would not have the url. Or similarly if someone wants to use the information and wants to copy the references over. I can think of many scenarios where people would need the url as part of the reference. I personally favour academic referencing which gives all the information - you would never find a reference in a university e-journal that doesn't give the url. I also think retrieval dates should be included even if the article has a publication date because websites especially get updated all the time. The information you are sourcing may be different to the information at the time of publication. Betty Logan (talk) 02:58, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

I'm not sure if you are right. Why don't you ask in the help desk? Help desks won't bite.

Kayau |Jane Eyre| PRIDE AND PREJUDICE| les miserables 05:41, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

This is just my opinion. It's up to Wikipedia how it does its own references. Betty Logan (talk) 05:58, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

I don't know, but this just might help: [5] Kayau David Copperfield MOBY DICK the great gatsby 02:56, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

Merge proposal

We could merge vegetarian athletes here. There are only two cited, notable ones and will fit here nicely. Kayau Wuthering Heights VANITY FAIR paradise lost 13:08, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

If there are notable and cited vegetarians on that list they should be copied over here anyway. The question is whether there is any need for an athlete sub article. Maybe we should look at increasing the functionality of this list so that it can be organised through nationality or occupation. Betty Logan (talk) 13:48, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

But veggie athletes is way too short to become a stand-alone list. Stand-alone lists do not allow non-notable items, and if you don't count those, there aren't a lot left. Otherwise, the rest are not cited. Doesn't sound worthy for a list to me. Therefore, I hope the merge will be performed. Kayau Wuthering Heights VANITY FAIR paradise lost 13:14, 22 August 2009 (UTC)

The problem with the veggie list though is that you can't differentiate athletes from entertainers for example. If you want a list of veggie athletes our list isn't much use. Betty Logan (talk) 15:28, 22 August 2009 (UTC)

Yeah, and the point is, I want to take all the cited, notable veggies from the vegetarian and vegan athletes lists and re-sort them by nationality. I'm not saying that we should open a new section. OK? Kayau Wuthering Heights VANITY FAIR paradise lost 02:43, 23 August 2009 (UTC)

Not everyone wants a list of vegetarians listed by nationality, some people might want a list of vegetarian atheletes. Betty Logan (talk) 02:57, 23 August 2009 (UTC)

Would it be possible to assign a coloured bullet or letters or something next to each name, with a legend at the top explaining which colour means what, so we can distinguish at a glance who are athletes, who are entertainers and who are scientists or religious leaders etc? For example: , and --Silversmith Hewwo 22:11, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

That's a sensible idea but I haven't a clue how to do it. Betty Logan (talk) 22:15, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

• There is a Legend template we could use:

  Entertainer

  Writer

  Scientist

  Religious leader

  Athlete

  Other

You would then put the colour next to each name. E.G.

  Natalie Portman

  Plato

  H. G. Wells

• We wouldn't therefore have the usual asterisk dot next to the names. I'm not sure about the categories, the fewer the better I would think. --Silversmith Hewwo 23:16, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

We could also make the legend look nice: --Silversmith Hewwo 23:28, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

Yes that would be fine. May I suggest we use Trivial Pursuit colours though - pink for entertainment, green for science & engineering, orange for sportsmen & athletets, brown for artists & writers, blue for politicians, and yellow for spiritual leaders and philosophers, and black for 'others'. I think it would be a nice touch and the visual association already exists. Betty Logan (talk) 23:29, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

LOL. OK, I'll go for it. :) Also, I just realised there are categories for Vegetarians and Vegans. As I go through the list figuring out who is who, I'll add the appropriate category on their articles. --Silversmith Hewwo 23:46, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

One of the main sources for this article is the IVU which divides into the following categories ([6]):

  

ENTERTAINMENT - Actors, TV personalities, Radio personalities and musicians.

  

Politicians, Statespersons, Activists and Business People

  

Sports Personalities

  

Writers, Artists, Poets & Philosophers

  

Scientists, Physicians & Healthcare Professionals

  

Religious Leaders & Mystics

  

FASHION - Models, Designers, Photographers

  

Other

Legend

  Entertainer

  Writer

  Scientist

  Religious leader

  Athlete

  Other

• Um, sorry, but, er, what about the merge proposal? I like the idea of a legend like this one; it fits me perfectly. But WHAT ABOUT THE MERGE PROPOSAL?!? Kayau Wuthering Heights VANITY FAIR paradise lost 10:38, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

 Reopened to attract attention (no consensus) Kayau Odyssey HUCK FINN to the lighthouse BACK FROM EXAMS 14:41, 25 January 2010 (UTC)

 Done Kayau Odyssey HUCK FINN to the lighthouse BACK FROM EXAMS 12:40, 29 January 2010 (UTC)

Hitler more of a vegetarian than Einstein

Yet Hitler is shown as "disputed", whereas Einstein is listed as a vegetarian. Einstein was a vegetarian for the last year of his life. There is solid evidence that the same can be said for Hitler, who despite lapses had longer stretches of strict vegetarianism. Please end this terrible bias. If the definition "are known to be vegetarians or were vegetarians" includes persons who only were vegetarian for a certain period of time (so as to include the great short-time vegetarians like Einstein), than Hitler falls under that definition and must be listed as undisputed vegetarian. Otherwise entries like Einstein must either be deleted or fitted with an explanation that out of 76 years of life Einstein ate meat for 75. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.53.120.193 (talk) 16:29, 29 December 2009 (UTC)

This is Wikipedia you know. We've gotta play by the books. Einstein became a veggie in the last year of his life, and everyone agrees with that. Since this fact never changed till he died, a little note is unecessary. As for Hitler, a quite reliable person argues AGAINST it so the disputed tag is appropiate. Hope this helps. Oh, and remember to add sections at the END of the talk page. Kayau Wuthering Heights VANITY FAIR paradise lost 10:45, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

The argument AGAINST Hitler's vegetarianism stems from an earlier date. Everyone agrees with the fact that Hitler was a vegetarian for at least the last months / year of his life. See: E.g. Fest. If Einstein isn't disputed, Hitler shouldn't be. For EXACTLY THE SAME REASONS. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.53.122.189 (talk) 17:00, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

There are plenty of sources that dispiute your assertion that Hitler became vegetarian. See Vegetarianism_of_Adolf_Hitler#Questioning_Hitler.27s_vegetarianism. Many of the sources there say Hitler never stopped eating meat. If they all agreed that Hitler did stop at some point like Einstein then he wouldn't be "flagged" as disputed. Whether he did or he didn't is irrelevant, it's what the sources say that count. Betty Logan (talk) 17:21, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

The list simply records the names of people who have been vegetarian. Hitler is disputed because that status is challenged in his case, whereas in Einstein's case it isn't even though he aguably spent less time as a vegetarian than Hitler. If you want to clarify Einstein's vegetarian lifestyle then his article is the most appropriate place to do that. Betty Logan (talk) 12:29, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

Jerry Seinfeld as a Vegetarian

I have read various online sources that claim that Jerry Seinfeld is a vegetarian. The Animal Liberation Front website claims that Seinfeld is "an outspoken vegetarian who won't let people eat meat in front of him." I do not know if the ALF meets the criteria for a reliable source, which can be cited in scholarly papers.

Another source, The Rocky Mountain Collegiate, posts that Jerry Seinfeld is a vegetarian.

I would expect that Seinfeld could very well refrain from meat. How do we confirm if he does or does not eat meat? If Seinfeld does forgo meat in his diet, I think this is a notable fact to add to his Wiki page.

--Christopher Bueker (talk) 21:19, 13 December 2009 (UTC)

Check the IVU external links on the article and see if he's listed. Betty Logan (talk) 21:32, 13 December 2009 (UTC)

The International Vegetarian Union includes Jerry Seinfeld as a person forgoing meat in his/her diet [7]. --Christopher Bueker (talk) 02:21, 17 December 2009 (UTC)

Confucius

The webpage quoted as source ( http://www.ivu.org/history/east/china.html) is not particularly reliable, vide: "The China, Cung Kuo or Zhong Guo (Zhong means Center and Guo means Country), The Center Country, has a long vegetarian history since beginning. Unfortunately, there is no book to prove it[sic]" In "Analects" there are numerous references to Confucious consuming meat, eg: “食不厌精,脍不厌细。” He did not dislike to have his rice finely cleaned, nor to have his mince meat cut quite small. English translation above is by James Legge, it is available online: http://www.sacred-texts.com/cfu/conf1.htm . You can search the text and see multiple references to Confucius eating meat. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Yds bis (talk • contribs) 07:59, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

The IVU is accepted as a verifiable source, so for that reason Confucious is included. If you want to challenge it you will have to find references countering the claim that Confucious is vegetarian and add a disputed tag. DO NOT remove names that are cited using a verifiable source. Betty Logan (talk) 08:47, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

While I am not claiming that IVU is not a verifiable source, the essay there contains a lot of information higly dubious for anybody even vaguely familiar with the history of China and Chinese philosophy. The principle and only historical record about the life of Confucius are Analects , where you can find several references to Confucius eating meat: [8] [9] [10] [11] [12]

I am sure that you agree that "Analects", which record the life of Confucius in detail are a much more reliable source about his dietary habits than IVU webpage, which after all doesn't quote any historical records to back its claims and is only a "a personal view by Ting Jen, Indonesia " `Yds bis (talk) 09:37, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

I am not disputing any of what you say, but a claim by a valid verifiable source claims he is a vegetarian so that meets the criteria for the list even if it is incorrect. The IVU is occasionally wrong but correct in most cases. If you look at other examples such as Hitler and Jesus Christ then you will see that their entries are tagged as "disputed", and the claims for their non vegetarianism are also included. I am not thrilled about Jesus Christ being included because the only accurate account of his life are the gospels which state he ate fish, but it is not up to editors to make judgements about who is vegetarian. If there are verifiable sources for either case then both should be included. If you look at the list there are a number of names that are "disputed" and the purpose of that is to accommodate the conflicting verifiable sources. My advice is to add "Analects" as a reference including enough information to make it verifiable and add "disputed" in brackets after his name and treat it like any other disputed case. We cannot remove names in favour of one reliable source over another since that would violate WP:NPOV unless we can categorically prove the other source is incorrect, which we can't say in Confucius's case. Betty Logan (talk) 17:47, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

Ok. Thank you. Yds bis (talk) 08:07, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

Sorry to cut in, but if you see that someone gives reference that another person eats meat, he could be lasped -- stopped being vegetarian -- or maybe he wasn't vegetarian at the time. Einstein, for example, didn't get round to being vegetarian till his last year. Kayau Wuthering Heights VANITY FAIR paradise lost 02:32, 10 August 2009 (UTC)

This is silly. I did a broad search in Chinese, and I found hundreds of quotes where Confucius talks about eating meat and even recommends eating meat (though in moderation). There are also a number of Chinese articles disproving this claim. If I can find hundreds of original sources refuting Confucius being a vegetarian, and one source which is clearly a biased vegetarian advocacy site claiming (unsourced) that he is, then the name does not belong on the list. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.5.38.3 (talk) 11:09, 23 January 2010 (UTC)

List of non-notable vegetarians

I think we should keep a list of veggies without articles as a subpage of this talk page. Then we can check back and add them when they are OK. This has been in my head for a while, so as the guy who created WP:YESDRAMA I want to clear it out. Kayau Wuthering Heights VANITY FAIR paradise lost 08:09, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

I did actually do this for the Dutch vegetarians without articles but the list has been transferred to the archive! I think it's ok to keep a separate list provided the references are kept with them as well. However, if you think a person is notable enough for the list then there should be encouragement to start an article for the person to establish their notability. Betty Logan (talk) 12:33, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

I can think of at least three more, apart from the Dutch... A bloke who's been sent to a concentration camp, another bloke who plays Ronald MacDonald, an eighty-something woman, etc. So you might open a list (including the ones I archived. Sorry.) Kayau Wuthering Heights VANITY FAIR paradise lost 13:07, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

Natalie Hershlag

I was just wondering, since Natalie Portman/Hershlag is from Israel, should she be under that list instead of the USA one? In addition, she is a Vegan now. To Quote the Wikipedia articl on her: "Portman has been a vegetarian since childhood[46] and became a vegan in 2009 after reading Jonathan Safran Foer's Eating Animals;[47]"Silversmith Hewwo 21:51, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

If she holds either Israeli or US citizenship then she should go in the appropriate section. If she holds dual citizenship then she should probably be placed under her birth country, Israel. If we're not sure then again she should be placed under her birth country. As for the vegan issue, if there is a legitimate reference for her vegan credentials then she can be upgraded, provided the reference is included. It needs to be verifiable though - her official website/newspaper/magazine etc, not a fan blog. Betty Logan (talk) 22:00, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

An article written by Natalie herself discussing the book Jonathan Safran Foer's Eating Animals [13]--Silversmith Hewwo 22:23, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

Amy Smart

I removed the addition of Amy as after googling it seems she might have been a vegetarian but now isn't. There was a claim that she has always eaten fish though, so she may never have been a true vegie.--Silversmith Hewwo 06:51, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

• In that case, shouldn't she be DISPUTED AND LASPED, instead of REMOVED? Kayau Wuthering Heights VANITY FAIR paradise lost 10:41, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

Emerson dispute

I find the note which disputes Emerson, well, not that good. Just because Mr Emerson wasn't veggie back then doesn't mean that Alcott can't influence him later and he turns veggie! Kayau Odyssey HUCK FINN to the lighthouse BACK FROM EXAMS 12:10, 28 January 2010 (UTC)

It's possible, but since we don't know the dates it's impossible to be sure either way. Betty Logan (talk) 12:34, 28 January 2010 (UTC)