Talk:Little Wing/Archive 1

Archive 1

Lyrics

I added the lyrics, hope no one minds.

I guess it's acceptable, but I am not sure, though. I did not read carefully the docs about the rights of the author and the possibility to publish lyrics. I remember some sites did not post lyrics because of legal issues, but this is a very old. Some moderator should come and sput a definitive word about it, so that we can evetually add more lyrics.

p.s. post with the four tildes at the end please

Federico Pistono 11:46, 2005 September 4 (UTC)

This comes up every once in a while; the consensus says that it's a breach of copyright law. I've added an external link to them, which is our standard procedure. Thanks for the effort, though. Deltabeignet 03:49, 5 September 2005 (UTC)

Origins

I was wondering if their should be a section of the thought process leading up to the song, and why it is named Little Wing. However, I've heard two accounts on the matter - one that it was named after a flightless bird which became extinct in America (the translation from Apache of the bird being Little Wing), and the second that Jimi wrote the song about the atmosphere at the 1967 Monterey Pop Festival. I don't have any solid evidence to back either of these stories up, but was thinking that maybe someone else would have. The second account is from here.

I've found a third, mentioned in the Wikipedia article about Electric Ladyland, that Little Wing was the name of Hendrix's 'Guardian Angel'.

I'd heard that "little wing" was an allusion to Jimi's native american ancestry

from what i read in the book Room Full Of Mirros, A Biography Of Jimi Hendrix, the song is actually about his mother. While he did say to reporters that the song was about Monterery, he once confessed to his brother Leon, that, like the song "Angel", the tune is really about his mother coming down from heaven and giving him sprirtual support. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Reekie (talk • contribs) 21:30, 12 May 2007 (UTC).

According to the 2010 television documentary Jimi Hendrix: My Story, which quotes Hendrix's words entirely (for all two hours worth), Little Wing is about a woman who befriended Hendrix at a point where he was needy and his life in disarray whom he did not in his account have his stuff together enough to appreciate for who she was and what she was offering him, to his subsequent awareness and regret. Wikiuser100 (talk) 03:35, 17 September 2010 (UTC)

POV

The last two sentences of the second paragraph are very POV. "The Curtis Mayfield-influenced chord riffing is breath-taking throughout the introduction and the tone of his guitar is clean and pure; a perfect balance between aggression and sympathy. This is Hendrix at his very best." If the "breath-taking," "Perfect balance...," and "Hendrix at his very best," are all subjective and not appropriate for an encyclopedia article, and if the person who submite the second paragraph could provide corroboration for any influence by Curtis Mayfield, that would be great, because otherwise I have to believe that's also subjective.

The Curtis Mayfield influence should not be too hard to corroborate. I do not have references to speficic issues, but I remember reading the Hendrix was influenced by Mayfield in numerous articles in "Guitar Player Magazine" in the 80's and 90's. Mayfield's signature on guitar was his use of "double stops" (two notes played at the same time), that were embellished using slides and hammer-ons. The guitar intro to "Little Wing" is heavily peppered with this type of playing (it is probably one of the most notable examples in the canon of electric guitar recordings). Mayfield himself can probably not be called the inventor of this style, there are plenty of examples of people using it before him (such as Chuck Berry during his guitar intros, like "Johnny B Goode"). It would probably be a good idea to reference a song of Mayfield's using this technique, but I do not have a title readily at hand.193.214.228.3 02:47, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

Tonal Center?

From the article:

Hendrix makes great use of the relative minor harmonic concept by utilizing a tonal center of G major, but introduces the tune with an E minor chord played with authority and a sense of immediacy. The awesome power in the first miliseconds are achieved by gripping the E minor at the 12th fret with the thumb wrapping around the neck to reach the bass note E found on the 6th string (Jimi had huge hands). A muted percussive blast preceeds the actual chord by a split second.

To me, it doesn't sound like the tonal center is G major (actually G-flat, because the guitar seems to be tuned down by a half-step). That argument could be made, certainly, but it sounds more to me that the song is in a straightforward E minor, which is the chord that ends most of the phrases. And as for the second sentence (ignoring the POV of the first phrase), why would he have to wrap around to reach the bass note E on the 6th string? That would be an open string in standard tuning; that is, the left hand would not be involved in sounding that note. And as for the acrobatics involved, it sounds impossible even for someone with abnormally large hands. So unless someone can provide some support for either of those positions, I am moving the paragraph to the Talk page. ArthurDenture 06:50, 4 January 2006 (UTC)

The thumb IS used to fret the 6th string many times during the song, I have an official songbook which specifically notes this, and it isn't remotely difficult to do for even someone with medium size hands. I can't speak to the tonal center of the song though as my knowledge of music theory is hardly extensive. User:PipOC

Yes, using the thumb on the 6th string is no big deal. Looking at it now, I think I the original poster may have been referring to an E played on the 12th fret of the 6th string during the initial chord rather than the low E on the open 6th string that is played immediately following that chord. So that part may be ok with some cleanup and NPOV, but I'm still skeptical about the tonal center bit. ArthurDenture 04:22, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

Comping

I'm confused how the style of playing this song is similar to comping. If anything it's opposite to it. The Thumb fretting the root is a way of maintaining a strict tonal center while allowing melodic passages to go on within the distinct harmonic structure of the song. Comping has little in common with this, as it's a means of improvising harmony, not distinguishing it. The Jazz technique I would most closely relate this to is chord melody. PipOC 04:00, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Since no one can offer a defense for relating it to comping I'm going to remove the following text from the third paragraph

"In jazz music similar style is called "comping".

PipOC 01:27, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

Live versions

It would be good to have a list of live versons recorded by Hendrix that have been made available. I think there are several. Bubba73 (talk), 02:01, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

Alternative name...

I have recently discovered that this song is also known, and has been released on some versions of The Last Experience Concert: His Final Performance under the title of "Little Ivey". Perhaps someone should add a note to this effect on this article page?  _♫ Яєd_{xx ♪}♫♪_♫♪^Talk 17:06, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

Hard Rock?

I deleted the genre of Hard Rock because... Listen to the song! How is there any argument for that? Quentinisgod (talk) 05:11, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

Removed Deep Purple

I removed the reference to the song "When a Blind Man Cries" by Deep Purple since the song does not use the technique being discussed on the page. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.128.40.119 (talk) 04:34, 20 December 2008 (UTC)

Image copyright problem with File:Axiscover.jpg

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• That there is a non-free use rationale on the image's description page for the use in this article.
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This is an automated notice by FairuseBot. For assistance on the image use policy, see Wikipedia:Media copyright questions. --14:44, 2 January 2009 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Little Wing/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: FunkMonk (talk · contribs) 11:42, 15 September 2014 (UTC)

• Hi there, I'll review this. Weird it took so long for someone to get to it, great song and all. FunkMonk (talk) 11:42, 15 September 2014 (UTC)

Thanks. One potential reviewer (for a FLC) expressed concern about previous ownership/tendentious editing issues with Hendrix articles. Although it doesn't appear to be a problem anymore, some may still think so and avoid them. —Ojorojo (talk) 13:55, 15 September 2014 (UTC)

• "and Steve Cropper with Stax Records/Booker T. & the M.G.'s" Note needs citation.

Added. —Ojorojo (talk) 16:52, 15 September 2014 (UTC)

• "(My Girl) She's a Fox" was written by brothers Richard and Robert Poindexter, who later wrote "Thin Line Between Love and Hate"." Needs citation.

Added. —Ojorojo (talk) 16:52, 15 September 2014 (UTC)

• "Hendrix's brother Leon saw "Little Wing" (and "Angel") as a general tribute: "He wrote it for his girlfriends, our aunties, and especially for our mama, who looked over us from high above in the afterlife"." Seems significant enough to be added to the article?

A lot of Leon's recollections, etc. seem sketchy. I added it, but included that it is Leon's interpretation (there is no indication in his bio that the two ever talked about it). —Ojorojo (talk) 16:52, 15 September 2014 (UTC)

• "It followed the familiar chord progression," Familiar in what way? Compared to the final version? A bit unclear.

Yes, clarified. —Ojorojo (talk) 16:52, 15 September 2014 (UTC)

• "The Experience's American label Reprise Records held up its US release because of the December release of Get That Feeling, the Curtis Knight album on Capitol Records that was designed to look like a current Jimi Hendrix album.[28] Even when Reprise issued Axis on January 15, 1968, it was felt that its sales were hampered by the confusion caused by having two new albums in the stores in such a short time." I think you have notes that are more relevant to the specific song itself than this entire passage.

Agree, trimmed and added as a footnote. —Ojorojo (talk) 16:52, 15 September 2014 (UTC)

• "was one of only two songs from Axis that the Experience regularly performed in concert." What was the other one?

Added with ref. —Ojorojo (talk) 16:52, 15 September 2014 (UTC)

• "although originally listed as San Diego Sports Arena)." Also seems more like note material than some of the actual notes.

Move to footnote. —Ojorojo (talk) 16:52, 15 September 2014 (UTC)

• Well, that was quick, sorry you had to wait so long for something that took so little time... I'll pass this now. FunkMonk (talk) 16:54, 15 September 2014 (UTC)

Great. Thanks again. —Ojorojo (talk) 16:58, 15 September 2014 (UTC)

Archive 1

Letter to Bil

According to biographer Harry Shapiro,[1] Hendrix wrote a letter to a female fan named Bil while on a UK tour with the Walker Brothers in April 1967, which he later followed up with a note (Shapiro says the two never actually met). However, nothing in his biography (or others) suggests a connection between Bil and "Little Wing". The letter and lyrics don't appear to share similar words or phrasing. Without a WP:Reliable source comparing the letter and the lyrics, to conclude that they "bear a resemblance" is WP:Original research. —Ojorojo (talk) 17:18, 29 February 2016 (UTC)

[copied from User talk:Ojorojo#Little Wing edit]:

Hi Ojorojo. Please would you explain why you have edited out what I wrote on the Little Wing page, about the letter to Bil. I think this is interesting information to add to the heading of 'Interpretation'. I am not asserting anything, just giving the information about the similarity between the Little Wing lyrics & the sentiments in the letter to Bil. I do not think that Hendrix often made mention of women's minds and imagination, so it could be significant. People will of course make up their own minds, but I don't see why this info should be suppressed, and I have quoted my sources. It is no more speculative than the comments of Leon Hendrix and Charles Shaar Murray, particularly as Hendrix said the song was about one girl. I am new to editing, so I would like to know in what way I have transgressed! Jaspermont (talk) 21:31, 3 March 2016 (UTC)

First of all, welcome to Wikipedia. I think it's great that you have an interest in Jimi Hendrix – many of his articles are in need of attention. "Little Wing" is a WP:GOODARTICLE, which means it has gone through a review process to ensure it meets the WP:Good article criteria. Criterion #2 is "Verifiable with no original research", which basically means that anything included in an article should be found in a reliable source ("RS"). All the sources for background material regarding the song specifically mention "Little Wing" – Shapiro, Hendrix himself, Murray, Leon Hendrix, etc. I kept your quote from the 1969 interview, because Hendrix mentions the song by name. However, in the Bil letter, he makes no mention of LW and his biographers have not made this connection (the Katerina quote is included because he noted "My Angel Catherina (Return of Little Wing)" shortly after meeting her). The ideas expressed by Murray and Leon may be speculative, but they are tied to LW and come from a RS. However, speculation about a connection between the Bil letter and LW is yours alone and is not supported by a RS. "...Your mind is, so imaginative, so beautiful there's no words for the sweet little drops of dreams that you manage to put on paper...No way to describe how happy you make me dureing (sic) these dark hours of today or any day..." seems to express much more general sentiments than "a circus mind that's running wild, Butterflies and zebras, and moonbeams and fairy tales, That's all she ever thinks about, riding with the wind". Unless there is a RS noting the similarity, to state this would be original research. To include the letter alone seems off-topic ("The most readable articles contain no irrelevant (nor only loosely relevant) information", emphasis added). I don't see that adding this contributes to a reader's understanding of LW. Hendrix's relationships and views on women are more appropriate in a biographical article. —Ojorojo (talk) 15:56, 4 March 2016 (UTC)

Thanks for your reply. I had not understood that only information that had been published could be put on Wikipedia. Incidentally, whatever Shapiro said, Hendrix and Bil did meet, and the letter I quoted is the third one that I have seen published. She wrote a short account of their first meeting in Univibes, and they also printed a poster on which Hendrix had written 'Please write me in London. We must see each other again'. Presumably they did, as he dedicated Electric Ladyland to her. So published sources are not necessarily reliable! But I accept your point and rules are rules. Jaspermont (talk) 20:51, 4 March 2016 (UTC)

Sometimes there are mistakes or inaccuracies, especially in works on pop music subjects. "Verifiability, not truth" should be balanced with common sense. The essay Wikipedia:Verifiability, not truth#"If it's written in a book, it must be true!" includes: "Even the most reliable sources commit mistakes from time to time, such as misspelling a name or getting some detail wrong. Such mistakes, when found, should be ignored, and not be employed to describe a non-existent dispute." —Ojorojo (talk) 15:09, 5 March 2016 (UTC)

Covers

I have only found three worthy versions of the tune; Jimi's, SRV's, and Concrete Blonde's. I like each masterpiece better than the former. While I'm relieved that not every cover ever made is listed, I'm disappointed that Concrete Blonde's is omitted. Cheers!
--2602:306:CFCE:1EE0:7098:B2A1:1BD5:76CC (talk) 21:44, 4 May 2018 (UTC)Doug Bashford

Do you have any reliable sources that discuss CB's version as noteworthy? It's not mentioned in their AllMusic bio[2] nor in the review for the album on which it appears.[3] Otherwise, it can't be distinguished from all the many covers that are not listed. —Ojorojo (talk) 14:08, 5 May 2018 (UTC)