Talk:Liu Shaoqi

School in Changsha

The article states that Liu and Mao Zedong attended the same school in Changsha.

But it does not state the name of the school, and the article on Mao does not even mention this.

Does anyone know what school this was? There was a missionary school in Changsha. Was that the school? Bill Jefferys 01:52, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

Death

I found an article on the Epoch Times that described the final moments of Liu's life. I think this would be a fairly reliable source, although it may be considered biased.

Liu Shaoqi, a former Chinese president who was once the No. 2 figure in the nation, died miserably. On the day of his 70th birthday, Mao Zedong and Zhou Enlai [23] specifically told Wang Dongxing (Mao's lead guard) to bring Liu Shaoqi a birthday present, a radio, in order to let him hear the official report of the Eighth Plenary Session of the twelfth Central Committee, which said, "Forever expel the traitor, spy, and renegade Liu Shaoqi from the Party and continue to expose and criticize Liu Shaoqi and his accomplices' crimes of betrayal and treason."

Liu Shaoqi was crushed mentally and his illnesses rapidly deteriorated. Because he was tied to the bed for a long time and could not move, his neck, back, hip, and heels had painful festering bedsores. When he felt great pain he would grab some clothes, articles, or other people's arms, and not let go, so people simply put a hard plastic bottle into each of his hands. When he died, the two hard plastic bottles had become hourglass shaped from his gripping.

By October 1969, Liu Shaoqi's body had started to rot all over and the infected pus had a strong odor. He was as thin as a rail and on the verge of death. But the special inspector from the central Party committee did not allow him to take a shower or turn over his body to change his clothes. Instead, they stripped off all his clothes, wrapped him in a quilt, sent him by air from Beijing to Kaifeng city, and locked him up in the basement of a solid blockhouse. When he had high fever, they not only did not give him medication, but also transferred the medical personnel away. When Liu Shaoqi died, his body had completely degenerated, and he had disheveled white hair that was two feet long. Two days later, at midnight, he was cremated as a person with a highly infectious disease. His bedding, pillow and other things left behind were all cremated. Liu's death card reads: Name: Liu Weihuang; occupation: unemployed; reason for death: disease. The CCP tortured the president of the nation to death like this without even giving a clear reason.

http://en.epochtimes.com/news/4-12-23/25124.html

Could someone please me read over this and add a summary to the article? Also, I would like to know how to add sources, etc. (ex: [13]) Duct tape tricorn (talk) 18:34, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

Epoch Times is controlled by Falun Gong, a cult that was banned in China and is hostile towards the CPC. Their articles about China are obviously heavily biased. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.180.83.27 (talk) 20:17, 9 January 2022 (UTC)

An older Liu

Image deleted

Doesn anyone know if this pic is in the public domain?

vcas.wlu.edu/VRAS/2003/Goldstein.pdf

WikiProject class rating

This article was automatically assessed because at least one WikiProject had rated the article as start, and the rating on other projects was brought up to start class. BetacommandBot 04:15, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

Extensive Revisions

In light of the lack of citations, I've rewritten much of the first few paragraphs, using two reliable sources. This includes correcting the view that Liu was against the Great Leap Forward; in fact, he announced it! DOR (HK) (talk) 06:01, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

The two don't neccessarily contradict. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 131.111.243.34 (talk) 22:22, 11 January 2009 (UTC)

Statesman

Statesman is defined as "usually a politician, diplomat or other notable public figure who has had a long and respected career at the national or international level." According to the article, Liu's career was long, spanning one or two decades, he led and represented the nation at both the national and international levels, and he was respected enough to be posthumously "rehabilitated" by Deng. Therefore, I feel it is appropriate to label him a "statesman" in the lead sentence and have reverted "politician" to "statesman." Phlar (talk) 11:31, 23 September 2017 (UTC)

It is not appropriate to designate Liu as a 'statesman'. His national leadership role was limited to one decade, and he was always subordinate in this period to Mao. His international role was minimal. His 'rehablitation' was not the sole gesture of Deng Xiaoping, but of the CPC in general, but this does not mean he should be promoted to the ranks of 'statesmen.' What were his major political achievements? What were his international accomplishments? Simply being second in rank in the CPC does not qualify one as a statesman or stateswoman. 12:39, 23 September 2017 (UTC)

As far as I can tell, the "statesman" label was added nine years ago with this edit and has stood pretty much unchallenged until now. I don't think "politician" is appropriate (hence my reversion of another user's recent edit), but I'm open to changing "statesman." What do you propose? Phlar (talk) 13:41, 23 September 2017 (UTC)

@Rgr09:Incidentally, I'm wondering what the criteria for applying the "statesman/stateswoman" label should be. I am asking because I see that the same anonymous IP who removed "statesman" from this article has also also attempted to remove it from some other pages (e.g. Valéry Giscard d'Estaing, Deng Xiaoping) while adding it to still others (e.g. Wellington Koo, Yuan Shikai, Chiang Ching-kuo). Is there a set of objective requirements that, if met, qualify a person as a "statesman"? Or is it more a subjective evaluation of a person's merits / attitude / performance as a leader? Maybe "statesman" is inherently POV and we should try to avoid using it at all. Phlar (talk) 16:12, 25 September 2017 (UTC)

@Phlar:Yes, I've been thinking about this. I agree that "statesman" is essentially POV. If you like a political figure you apply the 'statesman' label; always a positive sense. In a negative sense, it becomes odd: 'he's just a cheap statesman' (??). Some people tend to apply 'politician' as the negative version and this seems possible: 'He's just a cheap politician' doesn't sound odd at all.

For good or bad though, Wikipedia uses 'politician' as a neutral term, so we're stuck with it. Another reason to avoid 'statesman' is that it is so often used in wildly inconsistent ways in Wikipedia. Looking to see which US presidents were labeled 'statesmen' was interesting. Washington - no; Adams - yes; Jefferson - no; ... Jackson - yes, and so on. Washington and Jefferson were not statesmen, but Adams and Jackson were; seems quite random. I therefore thoroughly agree that 'statesman' should be avoided, period. (For a recent discussion of this on Wikipedia, see Wikipedia_talk:Biographies_of_living_persons#Should_we_refer_to_living_former_politicians_as_statesmen.3F

In a Chinese context, I won't take the energy to dispute Deng (though his actions in Tiananmen Square were hardly statesmanlike); the use of 'statesman' in the Zhou Enlai article is odd, but if it were revised to a more normal context, I wouldn't dispute it either. But Yuan Shih-kai?? In what way was he a statesman? I'll take a look.

Returning to our mutual feeling that 'politician' is odd for people like Soong Ching-ling, I now think that 'political figure' is acceptable as a vague term that might apply to non Communist figures who hold positions similar to Soong in the PRC. For Communist figures, especially higher ranking ones, perhaps Communist Party leader? Or just 'political leader'? (This was used for some Russian premiers.) What do you think? Rgr09 (talk) 00:29, 26 September 2017 (UTC)

Thanks for the link to that discussion, it's quite illuminating. I now think "politician" works fine for Liu Shaoqi and "political figure" is good for Soong Ching-ling. Phlar (talk) 19:53, 26 September 2017 (UTC)

Nah, this is ridiculous Western chauvinism. Just because the editors above can't be arsed to look into Chinese politics during the period beyond their base understanding that 'All-wuz-Mao' doesn't mean that a revered leader of hundreds of millions wasn't a statesman. There's detailed sourced discussion of the guy's political writings, governing accomplishments, personal sacrifices, and continuing legacy. It's 'politician' that's the loaded POV term here, particularly since 'statesman' was the initial choice and obviously POVily removed. — LlywelynII 12:29, 12 April 2023 (UTC)

All-China Federation of Labor

"In 1925, Liu became a member of the Guangzhou-based All-China Federation of Labor Executive Committee."

Is the 'All-China Federation of Labor' the same as the All-China Federation of Trade Unions? The article says the latter organization is currently based in Beijing, but seems to say that it was founded in Guangzhou. Harfarhs (talk) 17:13, 1 October 2017 (UTC)

Suggestion: the intro should talk about how Liu Shaoqi was a traitor that deserved to be imprisoned by Mao Zedong during the cultural revolution

Suggestion: the intro should talk about how Liu Shaoqi was a traitor that deserved to be imprisoned by Mao Zedong during the cultural revolution Echo Ayato Tighnari Ganyu (talk) 02:27, 2 October 2022 (UTC)

The text doesn't support it and neither Deng nor Xi seem to agree with you. Sources? It could at least be offered as a contrasting view, assuming it's not just your personal feelings. — LlywelynII 12:25, 12 April 2023 (UTC)

1927

Given the guy's prominence in the party and involvement in both Shanghai and Wuhan, it's worth mentioning exactly how he escaped Chiang Kai-shek's purge of senior party members in 1927. Right now the article—while otherwise well sourced and comprehensive at least w/r/t Western scholarship—passes over that in complete silence, which is ridiculous. — LlywelynII 12:25, 12 April 2023 (UTC)