Talk:Long rifle

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Sources?[edit]

This article has no citations or sources. If someone could please take the time to substantiate ANY of this information with a reliable source it would go a long way towards making this an encyclopedia article, as it stands it does not belong on wikipedia at all, unsourced material must be removed. Even though the information seems credible it cannot remain on Wikipedia in its current state.

This reads like a personal essay, especially in light of certain statements, not the worst offender being, 'Gunsmiths were recognized as the preeminent craftsmen of their day for they, more than any other tradesmen, had to be expert in all the materials of the time.' Recognized by whom? This is such a sweeping statement it makes itself irrelevant. "Facts" like this should be removed. - Celareon (talk) 02:19, 11 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Um... Ok. But this isn't about a living person, so don't blank it. -LlywelynII (talk) 18:06, 2 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Sources available are 1) "Rifles of Colonial America" Vol. II,by George Shumway, G. Shumway Publisher. RD7, Box 388b, York, PA, 17402 2) "History of Lancaster County" by Daniel L. Rupp, Gilbert Hills Pub., Lancaster PA and 3) "The Baker Family of Gunsmiths in Lancaster County, 1717-1754" privately published by the Kentucky Rifle Association, Vol. VI, No.1 (1972) by Samel E. Dyke. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.28.177.40 (talk) 13:10, 3 November 2012 (UTC) Have now logged in - above sources from Lester Welch — Preceding unsigned comment added by Lester Welch (talk • contribs) 13:17, 3 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Renaming[edit]

Shouldn't this article be more appropriately named Kentucky Rifle? Long Rifle could refer to any number of longarms. --Commander Zulu 11:58, 22 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, the long rifle originated from German imigrants, and the rifles origins in the US started in Pennsylvania. It was used when Kentucky was first settled, and thus it was tagged the Kentucky rifle. There needs to be an addition of the Tennessee rifle as it is a version of the Pennsylvania or Kentucky rifle. The difference mainly is that the Tennessee had no patch box, and was plainly made as compared to the Pennsylvania. It was made in the eastern mountains of Tennessee, and called the 'Tennessee mountain rifle', or 'hawg (hog) rifle'. The Tennessee rifle had another traight of having an iron busing on the shooters side that the screw for the side plate went through. It was tear dropped shaped; made by closing an iron strip around a mandrel the size of the screw and was inletted in the stock just above the set triggers. --Will Matney 04:10, 29 Oct 2008
That's right, Will. We should leave it as Long Rifle! (Personal attack redacted by Jeremy (v^_^v Stop... at a WHAMMY!!)) —Preceding unsigned comment added by A222a2222 (talk • contribs) 23:16, 22 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Probably the article could be usefully divided with long rifle or longrifle (in that order: longrifle is the much less common term) discussing the general development of the Pennsylvania rifle, Kentucky rifle, and hog rifle or Tennessee rifle with links to those pages. But until the pages are separated, long rifle is the catch-all term. Otoh, Decker rifle (300 total Google hits worldwide -wiki) & other uncommon brand names shouldn't be in the lede. -LlywelynII (talk) 18:06, 2 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Disagree with "long rifle" instead of "longrifle". Re-google it with quotes, and you will see a markedly different result which appears to favour "longrifle". Even some of the "long rifle" hits on the first page of results actually show "longrifle" in the pages. But instead of using Google as our source, something more authoritative like Oxford English Dictionary would be better. Don't have access right now, myself. Here is one useful reference supporting "longrifle": [1].
As well, I have reservations about the de-emphasis of "Deckard", although I don't have references. I want this noted here, in case someone wants to follow up later. Taquito1 (talk) 04:56, 3 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Trying different permutations of Google searches ("long rifle" -longrifle -".22 long") or (longrifle -"long rifle") gives inconclusive results, even on Google Books. Only one dictionary seems to have an entry for "long rifle"; Random House unabridged, which gives Kentucky rifle as the primary name. Several other dictionaries have an entry for Kentucky rifle as well. Given that, I'd say that Kentucky rifle should be the name of the article. Although it presently states that "the Kentucky rifle was a variant of the long rifle", it doesn't back that claim up with any text or sources.--Father Goose (talk) 06:11, 3 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

With all due respect, what difference does it make what a Google search returns on a search for long rifle or longrifle. The internet is not the authority on this. Most of the experts in this area barely know what the internet is. I just tripped over this entry myself and I have been creating web sites since there was a web. It just wasn't on my radar screen. Now that it is, I will endeavor to correct the short comings of this article. I have been studying, collecting and building American longrifles for over 30 years. I personally know many of the leading lights of the 20th century recreation of the American longrifle and have studied with them. I created the web site AmericanLongrifles.org for contemporary builders of longrifles, and I am a charter member of the Contemporary Longrifle Association, life member of the NMLRA and the NRA. The accepted term is longrifle, not long rifle. A long rifle could be any long rifle, modern or otherwise. An M1 Garand is a long rifle but it is not a longrifle. An 1908 Springfield is a long rifle, but it is also not a longrifle. I could provide a boat load of books, and magazines articles as well as web sites where this is the case. Please see the citations I recently added to the article for substantiation. It is my intention to rewrite this article and seek to get the title changed to American longrifle, the most correct and inclusive term. You can check out my personal web site http://www.markelliottva.com for more information about me, and I can provide references to establish my expert credentials if required. Mark E. Elliott August 14, 2011 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Melliott7264 (talk • contribs) 06:03, 14 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

On a related note, why does the infobox call it a "Pennsylvania Rifle," a term not mentioned in the lead and only in one small paragraph in the entire article? 130.179.29.61 (talk) 15:23, 21 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Because that's what it is, a Pennsylvania Rifle and that's what the article should be named. Somebody is just throwing their weight around. Al Cook U.S. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.32.36.143 (talk) 15:53, 29 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Accuracy of the Baker Rifle[edit]

In this article it references the Baker rifle having a total range to 800 yards. Is this confirmed by any source[?] There is large arguement about actual accuracy of the Baker past 400 yards. The hits that occured at a possible 800 yards are unconfirmed. Just a something that might want to be researched and cited. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 63.162.143.21 (talk) 13:39, August 27, 2007 (UTC)

I'm confused. Cites are good. Granted. However, you write as though you know there are alleged hits at 800 yds but they're controversial. In that case, a cite wouldn't help: it'd just corroborate the supposedly questionable alleged hits. If you have a cite that the stories of hits at 800 yds are unsubstantiated, please explain and include them. -LlywelynII (talk) 18:06, 2 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

No photos?[edit]

Is that right? None survived? No artistic representation of such interesting, unique artifacts? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 189.34.80.171 (talk) 22:51, 28 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Plenty have survived, many even in shooting condition. There are lots in museums as well as in private collections. They are just rather pricey. We do need a picture, though. Yaf (talk) 17:49, 10 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

More photos![edit]

Ok. Now we have one. It's of a replica. Any more? or historical depictions? -LlywelynII (talk) 18:06, 2 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Non-Encyclopedic Reversion February 01, 2010 & Name[edit]

No offense intended to the writers I reverted. I hope you restore your work in correct format. I'm not sure what went wrong, but what I reverted was a whole lot of stuff with words like "me", "I", and "my Uncle", etc. Since that approach permeated many paragraphs that were added just a week or two ago, I am not going to try to rewrite it myself. That sort of discussion is for this discussion page...maybe that was the mistake.

Interesting topic, of course. I also wonder why the article is just "Long rifle", without "Kentucky" or "Deckard" or something. The title doesn't have to cover all the bases perfectly, but it should be a little more definitive and meaningful, I think. While I am no expert, I would have thought that more people know the rifle as the "Kentucky Long Rifle". If purists disagree, their opinion certainly has weight, but I am not sure it should be the final word on a topic that has meaning to a much broader audience. For example, it appears extensively in histories and in fiction, and that usage has some weight as well. - Taquito1 (talk) 04:16, 2 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

See above. The catch-all term is Long Rifle (alt. longrifle) and that should be the lede until separate articles are written. -LlywelynII (talk) 18:06, 2 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

5.56 nato? wasn't invented until the 1950's

gas operated rotating bolt? on a muzzleloading black powder rifle? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.233.138.60 (talk) 06:17, 23 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

American Long Rifle[edit]

The caliber of the American Long Rifle ranged from .32 to .50 caliber. Larger calibers were generally for smooyhbore muskets. The reason for the smaller calibers was saving powder. Also, a smaller caliber had a higher velocity than a larger caliber round ball projectile. You are incorrect in your data and should check sources concerning the subject. I have personally shot these rifles and have studied them. You may also check with Jim Turpin,Master Gun Builder of Overland Park, KS. Ed Krzesinski — Preceding unsigned comment added by 144.73.121.220 (talk) 17:46, 5 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

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Robert Baker's ancestors and descendants[edit]

"ROBERT BAKER ( -1728)., gunsmith. Robert Baker was a gunsmith between 1717 and 1728 at the confluence of Pequea Creek and the Susquehanna River in Chester (now Lancaster) County. In 1719 Robert Baker took over the shop operated by his brother, Samuel Baker. Robert died intestate 19 September 1728, the Orphan's Court ordered an inventory of Robert's estate. It showed tools of the gunsmith and blacksmith. The total value of the tools in his gun barrel boring and gun shop was 295 pounds/10/7." [1]

Editors Note: Based on all information found, I believe Samuel Baker & his brother Robert Baker were probably the first gun makers in America. National Geographic Magazine stated that the Baker's invented the Pennsylvania-Kentucky Long Rifle. Unable to find the date of that article.


Not sure where to put this genealogy information for Robert Baker since his Wikipedia page doesn't exist now. Robert ("The Gunsmith") Baker, a co-creator of the Long Rifle, Robert "The Gunsmith" Baker. co-creator of the Long Rifle, was a direct descendant of John Baker https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=John_Baker_(died_1558)&oldid=1042072746 and Christopher Baker, who was a sea captain during the Spanish Armada, war between England and Spain. Capt. Baker is pictured on the Armada Tapestries. George Baker (1540-1600), Capt. Baker's son from whom Robert Baker is descended, was personal surgeon to Queen Elizabeth I of England. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Baker_(surgeon) Andrew Baker, a son of George Baker (surgeon), emigrated to America, where he was an official gun-maker for the colonies, appointed by the King of England. Robert Baker was also the maternal grandfather of Jesse Hughes (c. 1750 – c. 1829), frontiersman. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesse_Hughes_(frontiersman). I know this Baker genealogy because Jesse Hughes is my 5th great grandfather. (I want to link this to other Wikipedia pages but I'm not sure how) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Calicomist (talk • contribs) 04:30, 27 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Statements in WP articles require reliable sources. That's the policy. Find the supporting article and you can add the statement. Also see WP:CITE for formatting. MartinezMD (talk) 05:03, 27 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ GUNSMITHS OF LANCASTER COUNTY, PENNSYLVANIA by James B. Whisker
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