This article is within the scope of the WikiProject Composers, a group of editors writing and developing biographical articles about composers of all eras and styles. The project discussion page is the place to talk about technical and editorial issues and exchange ideas. New members are welcome!ComposersWikipedia:WikiProject ComposersTemplate:WikiProject ComposersComposers articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Germany, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Germany on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.GermanyWikipedia:WikiProject GermanyTemplate:WikiProject GermanyGermany articles
This article is part of WikiProject Deaf, the WikiProject which seeks to improve articles relating to all aspects of deaf-related and Deaf culture. For the Project guidelines, see the project page or talk page.DeafWikipedia:WikiProject DeafTemplate:WikiProject Deafdeaf articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Austria, an attempt to build a comprehensive and detailed guide to articles about Austria on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please join the project.AustriaWikipedia:WikiProject AustriaTemplate:WikiProject AustriaAustria articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Vienna, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Vienna on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.ViennaWikipedia:WikiProject ViennaTemplate:WikiProject ViennaVienna articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Biography, a collaborative effort to create, develop and organize Wikipedia's articles about people. All interested editors are invited to join the project and contribute to the discussion. For instructions on how to use this banner, please refer to the documentation.BiographyWikipedia:WikiProject BiographyTemplate:WikiProject Biographybiography articles
The existing grammar appears correct. Nikkimaria (talk) 05:56, 16 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The comma should still be added at least because it helps to clarify the separation between the introductory phrase "Despite this" and the main clause that follows it. LukeTheAwesomePro (talk) 06:08, 16 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Such commas are not required in British English, which appears to be the variant in which this article is written. Nikkimaria (talk) 14:24, 16 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Beethoven's family was from Austria and he even moved back to Vienna when he grew up, yet on Wikipedia, it calls him a German composer. He was not German, not even Prussian. He happened to live in Cologne for the beginning of his life, but he was and always will be an Austrian composer. Germany didn't even claim Beethoven to be German until the rise of Nazism. Calling Beethoven German is a common misconception nowadays. I was wondering if there was any reason it should be changed to "Ludwig van Beethoven (baptised...) was an Austrian composer and pianist." Thanks! Jaxon.t.allen (talk) 18:31, 29 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It appears that most major reference sources, such as Grove Music, continue to refer to him as German. Do you have sources that use Austrian? Nikkimaria (talk) 18:34, 29 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Well, his family was from Mechelen in Brabant, no? Jaxon.t.allen (talk) 11:12, 30 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I just looked at his family tree and his father was Austrian, but his mother was Prussian (German). Perhaps it should not read Austrian composer as I originally thought but Ludwig van Beethoven (…) was an Austrio-German composer and pianist. Jaxon.t.allen (talk) 11:34, 30 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
We can't look at the primary sources and interpret how we should refer to him - see WP:NOR. Instead we need to follow the secondary and tertiary literature, which as mentioned seems to use German. Nikkimaria (talk) 14:07, 30 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Don't primary sources usually take precedent over secondary sources? Also, this brings to question why these secondary sources exist. When was he first referred to as German? Jaxon.t.allen (talk) 16:31, 30 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
But the Primary source is the rock-solid truth. Secondary sources are just interperations. Jaxon.t.allen (talk) 17:26, 30 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Wikipedia is based on what the majority of reliable secondary sources say. It may be hard to swallow, but things like "rock-solid truth" don't have any meaning for WP's purposes. Aza24 (talk) 20:03, 30 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Because of Wikipedia's three core content policies: neutral point of view, verifiability, and no original research. We summarize what secondary sources say, representing them proportionately; we don't declare absolute truths based on interpretation of primary sources. Nikkimaria (talk) 01:39, 1 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
This is not original research. It is a re-analysis of existing sources and solid facts. The "secondary" sources are more like quadrinary sources (possibly based on none other but our own wikipedia) I'm willing to compromise. We could call him an Austro-German composer. Jaxon.t.allen (talk) 15:37, 1 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Re-analysis of primary sources is, by our definition, original research. Do you have any secondary sources that refer to him as an Austro-German composer? Nikkimaria (talk) 00:58, 2 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Quick question: why no original research? Jaxon.t.allen (talk) 13:47, 2 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Open wikis are not reliable sources, and WP:NOR is a core content policy. Nikkimaria (talk) 04:47, 3 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I forget who once wrote something along the lines of "the great triumph of post-war Germany was to pursuade the world that Beethoven was German and Hitler Austrian". Johnbod (talk) 16:38, 30 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Beethoven was at least half-Austrian. He would've wanted to be reffered to as Austrian, heavily associating himself with the hapsburghs and their nation. Jaxon.t.allen (talk) 17:25, 30 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Hitler on the other hand, was a German Nationalist. It is not the birthplace, but the ethnicity and ideology that make up the nationality. Jaxon.t.allen (talk) 17:33, 30 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Die Österreicher haben das Kunststück fertiggebracht, aus Beethoven einen Österreicher und aus Hitler einen Deutschen zu machen.
Beethoven obviously preferred Austria and was never never set foot on Prussian (German) soil.
THe Austrians are kind of right. Beethoven had Austrian nationality,not German or Prussian. so... Jaxon.t.allen (talk) 22:26, 30 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
In addition, "van Beethoven" means from the (Austrian) noble house of Beethoven. Jaxon.t.allen (talk) 15:33, 1 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Plus, he was born on Austrian soil. (even if it is modern-day Germany) Jaxon.t.allen (talk) 15:38, 1 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Bonn was Austro-Hungarian in the late 1700s. Jaxon.t.allen (talk) 15:40, 1 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Ancien Regime has been very widely used for over a century to cover all Continental monarchies before the French Revolution. Johnbod (talk) 12:54, 2 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Austro-Hungary was a part of the Holy Roman Empire and if you look at a map of the 'HRE' in the late 18th century, you will find that they owned a sizable piece of land in the west that included the Lower Countries and Bonn. Jaxon.t.allen (talk) 21:27, 1 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The HRE didn't "own" its territories, except the few the emperor ruled directly, which didn't include Bonn. Please stop wasting people's time with your uninformed opinions. Johnbod (talk) 12:54, 2 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Bonn was Austrian territory when Beethoven was born. His lineage was of Austrian royalty. He was Austrians. Jaxon.t.allen (talk) 14:26, 2 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Really. I wonder could you provide one single WP:RS source to support your somewhat surprising claim that "Bonn was Austrian territory when Beethoven was born"? I have just searched the article on Bonn for the word "Austria". How many instances do you think I found? Many thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 16:44, 2 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I'd like to point out that his name is written Van Beethoven with a capital "V". Also writing his name without the "Van" is a mistake.
Van Beethoven was of Flemish origin and his grandfather was organist at the cathedral of Mechelen. In Flemish, "Van" means "from" and is always written with a capital "V", just like Jean-Claude Van Damme who also had Flemish ancestors.
Van Beethoven literally means: "From the beetroot farms".
Van Beethoven himself wrote his name with a capital "V" and never left out the "Van".
The lower case "v" is a late 19th century germanisation of his name (then also often erroneously written "von") and the standalone "Beethoven" is just a modern popular simplification. Peter Vercauteren (talk) 11:05, 7 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I disagree. Wikipedia should give the reader correct information as it's an encyclopedia of general knowledge. It's not because he's commonly known as "Beethoven" or because his full name is often erroneously written with a lowercase "v" that Wikipedia should follow popular belief? Peter Vercauteren (talk) 12:16, 7 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Hello Peter. I wonder could you provide some scholarly sources that support your claim? Many thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 12:22, 7 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Hello Martin! First of all, I'm Flemish myself so I know how we write our names. Secondly, look at Van Beethoven's autograph here on Wikipedia. 😉 Peter Vercauteren (talk) 12:27, 7 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks Peter, but personal nationality or ethnicity is not regarded as WP:RS. The signature looks useful, but might be discounted as WP:PRIMARY. I was wondering if there were any academic sources that make the same argument that you have used here? Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 12:37, 7 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
After doing a bit of research, it does appear that his father Johann had already germanised his autograph to a lowercase "v" (contrary to Ludwig's grandfather Lodewijk Van Beethoven), but for some reason Ludwig reverted to the Flemish spelling with a capital. Peter Vercauteren (talk) 13:01, 7 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Interesting article, but the "secret code" aspect is clearly click-bait nonsense. Nothing I'm reading is exceptionally different enough from standard dynamic markings to warrant inclusion in a general encyclopedic article. Aza24 (talk) 04:57, 21 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Bonn was part of the Electorate of Cologne at the time of Beethoven's birth. And Vienna was the capital of the Austrian Empire, I see no reason to not put that information on the infobox. It is not as if this was a disputed thing. FCBWanderer (talk) 18:47, 20 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Nor is it a particularly helpful thing. Nikkimaria (talk) 04:09, 21 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Every major historical figure in the depths of this encyclopedia has the country of their location, I do not see a reason as to why this should be any different. Nurusa101 (talk) 18:53, 21 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
In the article it is stated in regards to Therese Malfatti that "She is now remembered as the recipient of the piano bagatelleFür Elise.". However, the article for the piece states that "It is not certain who "Elise" was", and discusses in length about the possible identities. Perhaps it should be changed from "the recipient" to "a possible recipient"? Very Fantastic Dude (talk) 19:57, 21 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
This talk page is for discussion about this Beethoven article specifically; these matters should be brought up at the respective articles in question Aza24 (talk) 20:25, 21 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I brought it up here because I think the change should be made here. The other article seems to be pretty confident on the matter, so I think this article should be changed to match that one. Very Fantastic Dude (talk) 08:50, 22 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I've added "possible" to this article. In any case, my point was (which I did not explain properly) that these articles are at very different states; the Beethoven article is rather rigorously cited to leading academic scholarship, while the Für Elise article is a host of random references to Alfred Music, Youtube, the New Yorker, hundred year old sources, etc. Aza24 (talk) 17:48, 2 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]