Talk:Lug sail

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Older comments[edit]

Since this content came from Lugger, older comments will be at Talk:Lugger. Mysha (talk)

Clarity[edit]

Wasn't present in Lugger, thus isn't yet present here either. Mysha (talk)

Tacking?[edit]

Might mention whether lug sails keep the spar on the same side of the mast, when on opposite tacks. Lateen sails tack with the spar changing sides. User:HopsonRoad 14:33, 23 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I think that's already in it: Dipping is done to move the yard; that wouldn't be a characteristic if it was shared by all three types. Do you think it should be more explicit? Mysha (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 12:00, 25 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Derived from lateen sail?[edit]

What to do with Bracera#The lug rigged single mast bracera from the island of Brač? It gives an origin for the lug sail, but I'm not really sure about the source. To include or not to include? Mysha (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 12:06, 25 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Mysha, the sources that I've looked at suggest that the lug sail was an evolutionary step towards the lateen. You can click on the links provided and see what you think. Cheers, User:HopsonRoad 13:41, 25 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

The source, Salamon, at Bracera says "obviously", as opposed to citing scholarly sources that lateens were previously prevalent in the area and they were "chopped". I feel that you can say, "Most sources describe the lug sail as an intermediate step towards the lateen sail, as used in the Indian Ocean.^[1]^[2] There is speculation that the lateen may have evolved back towards a balanced lug rig, as used in the Adriatic.^[3]" Cheers, User:HopsonRoad 13:52, 25 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I added a version of it; but I'm not satisfied. Mostly: Do we consider this a speculation of a separate development, or a counter speculation on the origin as such? I think this involves the locations: Are we talking about the development happening there or the development being for the boats that now sail there? Something like that. Mysha (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 13:52, 28 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

^ Campbell, I.C. (1995). "The Lateen Sail in World History" (PDF). Journal of World History (Spring). University of Hawai'i Press: 23. Retrieved 2016-11-23.
^ McGrail, Seán (2004), Boats of the World: From the Stone Age to Medieval Times, Oxford University Press, p. 480, ISBN 9780199271863
^ Salamon, Velimir (May 2011). "The Croatian Brazzera" (PDF). European Maritime Heritage Newsletter (27): 4–6. Retrieved 10 November 2012.

Ear[edit]

The name being related to "ear" has now disappeared from the page. There are references for this, though, but most seem to be mere "Lug - ear" style. A better reference would be preferable, I guess. Mysha (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 13:57, 28 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

That may just be a local pronunciation of "lugger", perhaps "lug-eer". The "ear" may just be the sound, not the meaning. User:HopsonRoad 14:46, 28 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Might be. As I said: Better reference would be preferable. For now, it's enough that it's mentioned here for recollection, I guess. (Not that feel any of these are likely, but that's a different matter.) Mysha (talk)

Points that need attention in this article[edit]

(1) "For "standing lug" rigs, the sail remains on the same side of the mast on both the port and starboard tacks." This ignores the fact that a standing lug sets better on the lea side of the mast. Therefore it was standard practice for some (especially in the Royal Navy - see [1] at 6 mins 57 seconds) to tug down on the luff or a downhaul whilst in stays to move the yard to the other side of the mast. The point is that the sail may be left on the same side of the mast when tacking, but some chose to move it.

(2) "For "dipping lug" rigs, the sail is lowered partially to be brought around to the leeward side of the mast ...." Not always! In some instances the sail is completely lowered and the yard and sail shuffled aft and then forward on the other side of the mast. In strong winds, many luggers may do this, whilst using the partial lowering in lighter winds. This was also the practice in Royal Navy cutters. In vessels such as pilot gigs (the long, narrow open boats) where a single dipping lug with a long yard was set, the easiest way to tack was drop the sail, unstep the mast, push the yard and sail over to the other side and restep the mast.^[1]^: 72

(3) "The lug sail is evolved from the square sail to improve how close the vessel can sail into the wind" - this is entirely speculative, despite what any of the less academic references may say. In short, nobody knows how lug rig evolved - whether it was lateen with a bit cut off the front, or a square sail that was set asymetrically. These speculations can be found in John Leather's book, where he suggests either evolution from lateen, or importation from the east.^[1]^: 18 Evolution from square rig is suggested by Edgar March^[2]^: 15, with early instances fixed in the 18th century - but his discussion is not precise. This discussion is in the context of Casson stating that there is no evidence for lug rig in the ancient world.^[3]^: 245 The ref given in the article (Campbell) seems to be a dead link, McGrail does not draw the conclusions that the article says he does, the page number in Leo Block's cited book is wrong, but if you look in the book you find him citing Casson, but reaching different conclusions. Additionally, Block has two diagrams of standing lug and dipping lug (pg 52) where the captions are wrongly applied to each - so little faith in this source.

Given the absence of any well argued and researched source - unless anyone can find anything better - the article would be better to say that nobody knows the origins of lug rig, but it may be a modification from either square rig or lateen.

(4) "Because of the complexity of dipping, the yard is smaller than on the standing lug." Not universally true - see mention above of long-yarded dipping lugs in pilot gigs.

(5) WP:NOTMANUAL applies to the explanation of tacking a dipping lug.

(6) The caption to the photo of the Canadian replica of the Yole de Bantry seems to miss the point that these are all replicas of a French warship's boat.

Probably lots more to fix with this article - and I think it needs to be merged with Lugger - but one step at a time for now.

Any comments would be welcome.ThoughtIdRetired (talk) 20:48, 21 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

References

^ ^a ^b Leather, John (1979). Spritsails and Lugsails (1989 reissue ed.). Camden Maine: International Marine Publishing Company. ISBN 0 877429987.
^ March, Edgar J (1969). Sailing Drifters: the Story of the Herring Luggers of England, Scotland and the Isle of Man (1972 reprint ed.). Newton Abbot: David & Charles (Publishers) Limited. ISBN 0715346792.
^ Casson, Lionel (1971). Ships and Seamanship in the Ancient World (1995 updated ed.). Baltimore: The John Hopkins University Press. ISBN 0801851300.

Excellent points, all, ThoughtIdRetired. I encourage you to be bold and fix what you feel needs fixing. I support a merge, as well. Cheers, (talk) 21:15, 21 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks HopsonRoad- but after Christmas, and quite a bit more reading to do before a proper job can be done. However, a trawl for opinions and potential sources seems appropriate right now. ThoughtIdRetired (talk) 22:47, 21 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The Origins section of the article seems to be based on either misunderstood or poor quality references. These sources are:
Campbell, I.C. (1995). "The Lateen Sail in World History" (PDF). Journal of World History. University of Hawai'i Press (Spring): 23. The error in the Wikipedia article is that Campbell discusses some theories on the origin of Lateen rig and, in passing, these include the history of Lug Rig. However, a full read of the paper shows that Campbell is demolishing the theories that he discusses. So this paper does not support the text in the article.
McGrail, Seán (2004), Boats of the World: From the Stone Age to Medieval Times, Oxford University Press, p. 480, ISBN 9780199271863 - examination of this source shows that it is talking about the apparent origin of the Chinese fully-battened balanced lug. It goes on to discuss "patchy evidence of ...... fore and aft sails of an unspecified form". If the source is uncertain of what conclusions to draw, this article should certainly be no more certain - and I suggest that this source points us to the fact that there is no good evidence of origins.
Block, Leo (2003). To Harness the Wind: A Short History of the Development of Sails. Annapolis: Naval Institute Press. p. 164. ISBN 9781557502094. - this is a very poorly edited book (in that it contains some obvious elementary blunders in the subject - for instance mislabelling a diagram of a dipping lug as standing lug, and vice versa) and is written by someone outside their area of expertise (marine engineering, if my memory serves me correctly), so qualifies as "just a book written by some yachtsmen". Moreover, Block is citing Casson, who is much more circumspect about saying anything definite about the origins of lug rig. (See for instance, Ships and Seamanship in the Ancient World by Lionel Casson)
I see no value in the current Origins section and will be deleting it shortly.ThoughtIdRetired (talk) 21:25, 16 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

[Campbell-1] Campbell, I.C. (1995). "The Lateen Sail in World History" (PDF). Journal of World History (Spring). University of Hawai'i Press: 23. Retrieved 2016-11-23.

[2] McGrail, Seán (2004), Boats of the World: From the Stone Age to Medieval Times, Oxford University Press, p. 480, ISBN 9780199271863

[Salamon-3] Salamon, Velimir (May 2011). "The Croatian Brazzera" (PDF). European Maritime Heritage Newsletter (27): 4–6. Retrieved 10 November 2012.

[Leather_1989-4] Leather, John (1979). Spritsails and Lugsails (1989 reissue ed.). Camden Maine: International Marine Publishing Company. ISBN 0 877429987.

[March_1969-5] March, Edgar J (1969). Sailing Drifters: the Story of the Herring Luggers of England, Scotland and the Isle of Man (1972 reprint ed.). Newton Abbot: David & Charles (Publishers) Limited. ISBN 0715346792.

[Casson_1995-6] Casson, Lionel (1971). Ships and Seamanship in the Ancient World (1995 updated ed.). Baltimore: The John Hopkins University Press. ISBN 0801851300.

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