Talk:Luttif Afif

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Does anyone else have a problem with this biography? To be precise, with the fact that Luttif Afif and his brothers were Jewish? (If you have a Jewish mother, you're a Jew yourself, full stop. In any case, he was not a Muslim.) This means that a Jewish terrorist led the attack on the Israeli athletes for the purpose of liberating his Jewish brothers from an Israeli jail. I don't think this makes any sense at all.

More than 30 years after these events someone must have looked into his biography a bit more deeply. I hope someone is in a position to rewrite this biography so that it makes use of secure biographical data. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 210.84.32.8 04:28, February 17, 2006 (talk • contribs)

Citing sources

Please see Wikipedia:Citing sources for ways to cite sources for an article. Also see Wikipedia:Verifiability for acceptable sources to be used for an article.

The only references I can see in the article and my concerns about them are as follows:

"According to several sources, including Serge Groussard and Simon Reeve..."

Where did you find the information that Serge Groussard and Simon Reeve made this statement? In a book? Magazine? Newspaper? Online? The source of the information regarding their statements must still be cited here, even if it means repeating citations that are given at the Massacre article. Wikilink their names if there are articles about them on Wikipedia to create a link to those articles.

"(for more details see Munich Massacre)"

Other Wikipedia articles cannot be used as sources for other articles. If there is additional information that is of interest to someone reading this article, the link to the other Wikipedia article should be listed in a "See also" section at the bottom of the article.

"In Aaron Klein's recent book Striking Back.... In Serge Groussard's The Blood of Israel..."

Citations for these books need to include as much of the following information as possible: the full title of the book; the author's name (using the form last name, first name); the names of any co-authors ;the page number(s) that are being referenced; the year (or more specific date) of publication; the publisher's name; where it was published; and an ID number (preferably, use the ISBN). Much of this information is usually listed at Amazon.com for books that are still available for purchase (either new or used); including a link to the Amazon.com listing in the citation is helpful as well.

If appropriate, I will often include the names of photographers, illustrators, or someone who wrote the introduction to the book, as in "Camera, Wicked, photographer"; "Illustrator, Excellent, illustrations, or Introduction by Writer, Another). Any of the listed names that have articles on Wikipedia should be wikilinked to their articles.

You don't really need to know how to format all these references unless you want to learn how. In that case, see the links in Wikipedia:Citing sources. Otherwise, just check that you're including all the needed information and put it all in parentheses immediately following the information it is sourcing.

Also, be consistent in how the subject of the article is referred to. The switch to "Issa" in the last paragraph is confusing, as the information that Afif was also known by this name was in the first paragraph. It's much easier on the reader if he's called "Afif" or "Issa" consistently throughout the article, not both. The sentence that states what other name he is known by should be the only reference to that information unless the article goes on to explain why that name came about. Use "Afif" throughout the article if that's the name by which he is most commonly known. As you have done, it's also best to use the surname or entire name rather than a first name. A pronoun may be used instead of the actual name as long as it is clear to whom it refers. For example, you wouldn't use "he" to refer to Afif in the paragraph that also mentions Groussard and Reeve. (You didn't, it's just a good example.)

This article is on Afif and should relate more information about Afif himself rather than focusing on his role in the Munich Olympics incident. That information is already in the Munich Massacre article. Limit the information about that in this article to the information that he was the leader of the terrorist group and that he was killed at the airbase at the conclusion of that incident. If a source for his year of birth can't even be found, perhaps the sources for the remaining information need to be looked at more closely. This is a biography and should include as much verifiable biographical information as possible.

Just as some help to get started, here are the citations for the two books that are referenced in the article. The page numbers from which the information was taken are missing and should be added. Information regarding the location of the publisher or where the book was published is also missing. I've given the formal citation form for the Klein reference, but have just listed the information for the Groussardbooks using parentheses to set it off from the article text:

• <ref>{{cite book | title=Striking Back: The 1972 Munich Olympics Massacre and Israel's Deadly Response | url=http://www.amazon.com/Striking-Back-Olympics-Massacre-Response/dp/1400064279/sr=8-1/qid=1163867296/ref=sr_1_1/102-7714779-0838505?ie=UTF8&s=books | last=Klein | first=Aaron J. | authorlink=Aaron Klein | date=[[2005-12-20]] | publisher=Random House | ISBN=1400064279}}</ref>
• (The blood of Israel: The massacre of the Israeli athletes, the Olympics, 1972. Amazon listing: http://www.amazon.com/blood-Israel-massacre-athletes-Olympics/dp/0688029108/sr=8-1/qid=1163867829/ref=sr_1_1/102-7714779-0838505?ie=UTF8&s=books Serge Groussard, author. Morrow, publisher, 1975, ISBN 0688029108.)

The books will appear in the References section like this:

References

Bear in mind that Wikipedia also wants to read like a paper and ink encyclopedia. Imagine, if you will, that someone has the "A" Volume but doesn't have access to the "M" Volume, which is why it is important to include the references that may have been cited elsewhere. In this hypothetical situation, the user wouldn't be able to read the Massacre article, either, but the information shouldn't be repeated here; just the information about Afif's involvement in that crisis should be included here. For the user to get more information he or she would need to search out the volume(s) containing articles listed in the "See also" section and/or find the sources that are cited. I hope this is taken in the spirit in which it is offered—as comments to help write better articles, not to make anyone "wrong".—Chidom ^talk  17:14, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

Of course I accept the critique in the spirit in which it's offered. I have made (as best I can) the corrections you have suggested.

To the best of peoples' knowledge to date, Luttif Afif is the commonly-accepted true identity for the Munich terrorist known as Issa. I stuck in the other name because this is information that has recently come to light. Reeve identified the man as being 35 years old, Klein as 27, therefore the two dates of birth with question marks next to them. The fact is, unless the terrorist's family comes forward, we will never know his true name or birth date. —Preceding unsigned comment added by BassPlyr23 (talk • contribs) 23:36, 18 November 2006

Interview with the father of 'Issa'.

In a the folllowing documentary his father Mohammed Massalha calls his son 'Mohammed'. I know Luttif Afif is the given and accepted name of 'Issa' however in light of such information and factual evidence Mohammad Massalha could also be used as a name. This may explain why it is claimed that Klein accidentally identified 'Issa' under his Father's name by Klein meaning that he was correct all along. The link to the interview is below. It's in German but you can clearly here his Father call him Mohammed. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Kmw-33av1ZU

Clanc12 (talk) 22:09, 15 February 2017 (UTC)

What's more, according to this article in Haaretz, which specifically refers to the information on the English Wikipedia as incorrect, states that his name is Mohammed Masalha, and specifically that it is not Luttif Afif. It also states that the story about his Jewish mother is incorrect, and that Israel's Ministry of the Interior records show that his mother was named 'Arifa, born in 1920. I think this article should reflect these findings, though I would like to peruse the original source to understand how to best express this discrepancy in the article. Side: His father's name is apparently Tawfiq. —Ynhockey ^(Talk) 12:35, 11 August 2020 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 9 September 2017

"change invasion into to terror attack in" 77.125.70.180 (talk) 13:31, 9 September 2017 (UTC)

Not done: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{edit extended-protected}} template. You can begin a discussion by explaining why you think your proposed wording is preferable. Rivertorch^FIRE_WATER 05:55, 10 September 2017 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 14 June 2018

I would like to request more information be added to this page regarding Luttif Afif by adding Mohammed Moussalha in regard to names. Abu Daoud's book and a documentary on the Munich Olympics massacre in which his father appears and refers to his son as Mohammed, his fathers name is also Mohammed Mousallha. Daoud's book explains many things such as his engineering studies from 1965 to 1967 and his ability to speak German. I have contributed information on the original page and should like, with permission to be granted access to update the page with reliable references. Clanc12 (talk) 21:58, 14 June 2018 (UTC)

 Not done: It is not possible for individual users to be granted access to edit this page. You will automatically have the ability to edit this page once you have made at least 500 edits to the English Wikipedia. In the meantime, if you would like changes made to this article, please mention the specific changes in a "Change X to Y" format. ‑‑ElHef (Meep?) 13:43, 15 June 2018 (UTC)

References

Jewish mother

As he had a Jewish mother, Luttif Afif would be considered halachically Jewish by Orthodox and Conservative Jews. Does anyone has more information on his Jewish heritage? Was he raised Jewish or with Jewish culture? Did he identify as Jewish? Given that he chose to call himself "Issa" (Jesus), I'm guessing that he identified as a Christian? Bohemian Baltimore (talk) 15:19, 27 October 2019 (UTC)

The idea that his mother was Jewish is probably incorrect. This article states that is definitely wrong. I'm trying to figure out how to best reflect the discrepancy in the article. —Ynhockey ^(Talk) 12:37, 11 August 2020 (UTC)

Proposed changes to "Early life" section

The name of the Munich policewoman Anneliese Graes mentioned in the "Early life" section of this article appears to be misspelled as "Annaliese Graes." I propose correcting the misspelling and linking to the Wikipedia page on her: Anneliese Graes.

Also, since Simon Reeve is mentioned here, I propose linking to the Wikipedia page on him: Simon Reeve (British TV presenter). Fiwec81618 (talk) 21:16, 3 January 2022 (UTC)

There has been no further discussion, so I am going to presume consensus for now per WP:SILENT and submit an edit request; it has not been many days but the proposed edits seem fairly straightforward. Fiwec81618 (talk) 20:12, 5 January 2022 (UTC)

• What I think should be changed:

Two things:

1. In the "Early life" section, please correct the misspelling "Annaliese Graes" to the correct "Anneliese Graes" and link to the corresponding Wikipedia article Anneliese Graes.

2. In the "Early life" section, please link "Simon Reeve" to the corresponding Wikipedia article Simon Reeve.

• Why it should be changed:

1. The name of Munich policewoman Anneliese Graes is currently misspelled (the source cited here is just the first listed source in her Wikipedia article). It also seems more informative for readers looking for more information to link to her existing Wikipedia article.

2. It seems more informative for readers looking for more information to link to the author Simon Reeve's Wikipedia article.

• References supporting the possible change (format using the "cite" button):

Please see the references listed below. The Simon Reeve linked above is indeed the correct Simon Reeve, as can be checked from the "About the Author" section of the publisher's page for the book cited in this article.

Fiwec81618 (talk) 20:28, 5 January 2022 (UTC)

 Done Changes done Kpddg ^(talk) 03:24, 6 January 2022 (UTC)

References

November 2022

Hi @Dark4tune, you are engaged in an edit war with me, which is not good. When I initially reverted your deletion of the unreferenced paragraph, you should have left it instead of reverting again. Now you've gone and added a note to seek consensus before changing, which is ironic, since you haven't tried to engage in a dialogue with me so far. As I've said before, I think it's fine to leave the paragraph there, as it doesn't mention anything misleading; it's just a casual statement. Can you tell me why you insist on removing it? I'm hoping you can do better than "it's not referenced, therefore..." Thanks. Revirvlkodlaku (talk) 22:46, 27 November 2022 (UTC)

Hi @Revirvlkodlaku, if you can find a reliable source to back the paragraph up, that would be great. Otherwise, I think it can be a little misleading to leave a "casual statement" with no sources attached to it. Wikipedia is not a place for casual statements, it is a place for facts. Thank you. Dark4tune (talk) 03:48, 29 November 2022 (UTC)

@Dark4tune, I'm not convinced that the paragraph should be removed, for the reason I mentioned before. There is plenty of content on Wikipedia with cn tags attached to it instead of being deleted. This is often done when the content is simply unverified but not in any particular way misleading. I don't find your reason for deleting it compelling. Perhaps you could get a third opinion? Revirvlkodlaku (talk) 06:33, 29 November 2022 (UTC)

As I've said, I believe unverified content can be misleading if there is no source for it. I don't know where you heard otherwise, but as I've also said, perhaps you could find a reliable source instead of continuing to argue with me? Dark4tune (talk) 03:38, 2 December 2022 (UTC)