Talk:Māori All Blacks

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Christian Cullen[edit]

in the article the 1/16 'blood' requirement is mentioned, but not the Christian Cullen incident. what gives? i would add it in myself but know relatively little about the event but for that his father said he was only 1/64 Maori... it's mentioned on the Maori page here on wiki, and should probably be covered under 'controversy' or something. whether or not he was eligible to enter the team is irrelevant, but i think the event is definitely worthy of mention Motorbyclist 14:36, 8 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Māori language name[edit]

What is the Māori language name of this team, and is it ever used? --MacRusgail (talk) 19:18, 12 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Springboks not allowed to play against this team[edit]

I heard from a rugby-crazy acquantance that the South African Springboks are not allowed to play against the Maori team because the racial/ethnic nature of the team's composition violates South African human rights law. Is this true? Roger (talk) 12:51, 13 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

this was once true, under the apartheid regime, but certainly has not been the case since the end of apartheid.gadfium 13:54, 13 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

No not because of Apartheid, in fact because of the exact opposite - in terms of current South African human rights law the Maori team is viewed as "inherently racist". Roger (talk) 14:26, 13 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry for misunderstanding your question. I have heard such stories, eg [1], but I can't find what matches were actually played.gadfium 15:52, 13 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Excellent find! That's exactly the type of source I'm looking for. Thanks! Now to research if the match went ahead or not... Roger (talk) 16:18, 13 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Don't know if you followed up on this but according to this [2] that 2009 game didn't go ahead, but the SARU are now prepared to allow the Springboks to play the Māori. --Bcp67 (talk) 13:49, 8 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

NZ Maori played the Springboks in 1921 (losing 9-8) in 1956 (losing 37-0) and 1965 (losing 9-3). 202.50.252.51 (talk) 00:19, 5 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move[edit]

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the proposal was moved by Smashem. --BDD (talk) 21:07, 27 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Maori All Blacks → Māori All Blacks – Restore macron following a supposedly uncontroversial move request that has caused some controversy on the New Zealand Wikipedians' notice board. I don't really have an opinion on the matter, but thought that a formal move request is a suitable avenue for sorting this out. Schwede 66 17:23, 20 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

The NZRU, in this source, state that the team's name is 'Maori All Blacks'. Moreover, the team's logo uses the same spelling. Unless reliable sources can be found which explicitly contradict this, it should not be moved back. --hippo43 (talk) 21:29, 20 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Support per procedure WP:BRD - User:Schwede66 this probably doesn't require a RM, you can notify admin User:Anthony Appleyard for a restore. Whoever requested the move can then put in a RM from status quo position. User:Hippo43, I don't see in your link "NZRU against use of Māori macron" - it's simply an html source which has no macrons, isn't it? In sources equipped New Zealand Māori now Māori All Blacks the macron is used. In ictu oculi (talk) 02:24, 21 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Comment I appreciate, In ictu oculi, that it could have been done the other way round. But the formal discussion should be had one way or another to sort this out, and given that the informal discussion on the noticeboard had been going on for a while, I thought we might as well start the formal proceedings now. I have no doubt that it will get moved back at the end of this formal process. Schwede 66 04:34, 21 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose, obviously. The source doesn't need to state "NZRU against use of macron", as the issue isn't whether the union is opposed to macrons. It clearly states the new name - "The ...New Zealand Maori are to be officially referred to as the ...Maori All Blacks" and uses it in its logo. This article should be accurate and reflect reality. --hippo43 (talk) 07:25, 21 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

That the NZRU "officially" omit the macron isn't consistent with their use of it throughout their own official documents. You've inferred that omitting the macron is an official policy, you haven't established it at all. -- Shudde ^talk 07:36, 21 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I've established that according to the (so far) only authoritative source presented which explicitly addresses the issue, the team's name is 'Maori All Blacks.' --hippo43 (talk) 00:10, 22 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Support. As per In ictu oculi I believe @Anthony Appleyard: should revert the move -- consensus should be required to perform a controversial move, not to revert one. Hippo43 is now being disingenuous (see discussion here for background). The NZRU clearly have no official position regarding the macron -- and to claim omitting it is their "official" position doesn't bear scrutiny. They have issued a press kit (in November 2013) that used the name "Māori All Blacks" 39 times, including on the first page in huge letters! (see [3]) The 2012 annual report (the latest available) of the New Zealand Māori Rugby Board (here) -- which is published by the NZRU (see the last page) -- also uses the macron throughout. The article provided by Hippo in no way states that the macron is to be omitted; in fact it is clear from the article that the main concern of the NZRU is the use of All Blacks -- which they want for marketing reasons. The macron makes clear that the "a" in Māori is pronounced as a double vowel, and the idea that the NZRU has a preference for omitting the macron is simply untrue, as is clear from its use in their official publications. -- Shudde ^talk 07:34, 21 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Not being disingenuous at all. Please assume good faith.

The NZRU article on the name change clearly states the new name. Inferring that this is irrelevant because (you believe) the emphasis is on the 'All Blacks' branding is not credible. I did not claim that the article states that the macron is to be omitted. It does, however, clearly state the team's new name, which has no macron, as does the official logo.

The press kit you refer to uses a macron, but this article, published by the NZRU at the same time, doesn't use it. Which proves what, exactly?

In addition, the document from the New Zealand Māori Rugby Board clearly states that the board is not responsible or the team in question, so cannot be considered authoritative on how the team's name is spelt. --hippo43 (talk) 00:10, 22 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

It proves they don't have a preference -- which I have said over and over! You are claiming they have an "official" policy of not using the macron, but this doesn't stand up, as per the links provided by myself and others. So my point has not changed. – Shudde ^talk 09:52, 22 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

No, that's not what I'm claiming. I don't think I ever mentioned an "official policy of not using macrons". I am pointing out that the NZRU have stated that the name is "Maori All Blacks", and that they didn't include a macron in the only source we have in which they actually addresses the issue of the team's name. In addition, the logo that they use, which clearly reflects how they spell the team's name, does not include a macron when it clearly could.

This isn't about whether the NZRU, or any of its affiliated bodies, have an "official policy" of using macrons in general or not. It's about what reliable sources say about this team's name. --hippo43 (talk) 13:57, 22 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

As this discussion now includes an "Oppose" vote, I feel that it may be best to follow advice stated in Wikipedia:Requested moves and let this discussion run for a week. Anthony Appleyard (talk) 08:36, 21 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]
- The oppose vote comes from the person that proposed this "uncontroversial" move -- so of course they would be happy to leave the move as is. I think it's been clearly established that the move was in fact controversial, so the article should be moved back to "Māori All Blacks", and if Hippo then wants to then request a move to "Maori All Blacks" as per the normal process, nothing is stopping that from happening. -- Shudde ^talk 09:18, 21 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Support The documentation produced by SHudde above looks pretty compelling to me - there are probably good typographical reasons for omitting the macron from websites and logos but clearly the macron is preferred where it can be shown. The New Zealand Māori Rugby Board webpage here [4] also prefers it. --Bcp67 (talk) 13:17, 21 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

"Probably good typographical reasons"? A logo that, when both printed and embroidered, includes a complex silver fern, can't include a simple macron? That is transparent nonsense.

The source you linked to includes macrons in uses of the word 'Māori', but as far as I can see makes no comment on the team's correct name. --hippo43 (talk) 00:10, 22 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Support Quite frankly, I don't think this needs a discussion when the current title is incorrect. given the NZRU do use the macron I think it should have be Boldly moved. The C of E God Save the Queen! (talk) 17:59, 21 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

The current title is clearly correct, per the NZRU's statement re the team's name. That they also sometimes do use macrons is not evidence of the team's correct name. --hippo43 (talk) 00:10, 22 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Support, procedurally; if it was a controversial move without consensus, then we should take it back and if the original mover still feels strongly on this issue they can start a WP:RM. (Well, now we have a full WP:RM alongside the need to undo a contested move, but let's not create any more drama...) bobrayner (talk) 22:30, 23 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

"Māori All Blacks redirect" listed at Redirects for discussion[edit]

A discussion is taking place to address the redirect Māori All Blacks redirect. The discussion will occur at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2021 January 31#Māori All Blacks redirect until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion. 𝟙𝟤𝟯𝟺𝐪𝑤𝒆𝓇𝟷𝟮𝟥𝟜𝓺𝔴𝕖𝖗𝟰 (𝗍𝗮𝘭𝙠) 10:29, 31 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]