Talk:Māori Battalion

Fair use rationale for Image:Nzarmy.gif

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Rommel quote

I remember the Rommel quote as being "Give me three Māori battalions, and I could rule the world", and it's referred to here as him calling the Māori Battalion the "greatest fighting force he'd ever seen". I can't find any reliable references though - a number of blogs and forum posts only. Does anyone know where these quotes come from?-gadfium 18:19, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

The Quote has been spoken since the end of WW2. even today when people refer to NZ military they say "Give me three maori battalions and i will rule the world". Even some quotes from hitler have been spoken such as "The Aryan are the perfect race but the maori are the perfect soldier" and "If i had the Maori i will rule the world" although that one could be mistaken for Rommels. —Preceding unsigned comment added by BigBangHC (talk • contribs) 04:31, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

There no mention whatsoever of the Maori Battalion in the work cited as a reference for the alleged Rommel quotation (Fraser, D. (1993). Knight's Cross: A Life of Field Marshal Erwin Rommel New York: Harper Collins).Stormfront Gneisenau (talk) 03:23, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

My understanding of the quote, as an amateur historian of NZ military history, is that it is entirely apocryphal.Royalcourtier (talk) 05:03, 25 April 2016 (UTC)

WikiProject class rating

This article was automatically assessed because at least one WikiProject had rated the article as start, and the rating on other projects was brought up to start class. BetacommandBot 09:21, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

Coverage

I have changed the Military history checklist to not meeting the project's B class requirements for coverage. IMO the article does not adequately summarise the unit's service history. It needs to go into more specific detail about actions that the battalion fought in to achieve this. There appears to be a lot of good information to achieve this in this source: [1]. One suggestion I have is to add some subheadings such as: formation (which could include background, recruitment and training), North Africa (including separate sections for major actions), Italy, Disbandment. Currently there is a lot of list like information. To be honest I don't think this is really necessary. The Honours and Awards section could be condensed into prose with footnotes for the list of names (if they are really necessary). That is just my opinion, though. — AustralianRupert (talk) 00:33, 8 April 2010 (UTC)

Suggestions for improvement

A few suggestions for improvement towards B class and beyond:

• add more structure to the article by adding a History section, with subsections such as: Formation (which could include information about background, recruitment and training); North Africa, Italy, Disbandment;
• provide more context in the Background seciton. A reader who read that section would not fully understand the situation;
• provide a more detailed account of the actions that the battalion was involved in;
• did the battalion receive any official battle honours? Is there a source that could be found for these?
• consult the Official History work, and add inline citations to it;
• condense the long lists into prose, with supporting footnotes;
• add some relevant images to the article;
• format the in line references with {{cite web}} providing publisher and accessdate information;
• format the Further reading section with {{cite book}} for a cleaner look.

If you would like more detailed comments, please consider nominating this article for a Military History project peer review. This can be done by following the instructions at WP:MHPR. Cheers. AustralianRupert (talk) 00:44, 8 April 2010 (UTC)

Okay, I've finished writing the article. It still needs some more images. I'm not really confident on NZ copyright law, so if someone from NZ with knowledge of this subject could help find, upload and tag some images, I'd greatly appreciate it and it would definately make the article look better. Currently it is a reasonably visible article (about 2,000 hits a month), so it would be a shame for it to fall down on images. Cheers. AustralianRupert (talk) 05:16, 21 June 2010 (UTC)

Good work, sorry I wasn't more help... Anotherclown (talk) 16:33, 21 June 2010 (UTC)

Photos

Were there any other Maori units in the ANZAC forces - either independent or attached? If not, then the photos on the IWM Collection website would likely be of the Battalion despite not being labelled as such, and could concievably be used. Skinny87 (talk) 15:19, 24 June 2010 (UTC)

Hi Skinny, I believe that the 28th Battalion was the only unit formed specifically for Maoris to serve in. Maoris did serve in other units/branches of the NZ forces, but these units were not "Maori units" as such. If you don't mind me asking, what is the best search term to use in the IWM Collection, I found it quite difficult to find anything (but it might be just me). AustralianRupert (talk) 00:33, 25 June 2010 (UTC)

Found some, here: [2]. Thanks for your help. Cheers. AustralianRupert (talk) 01:07, 25 June 2010 (UTC)

Title

Was the battalion's official title "28th (Maori) Battalion", or "28th Battalion"? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.197.15.138 (talk) 07:09, 23 April 2011 (UTC)

The sources seem inconsistent. The official history is titled "28 (Maori) Battalion", but then elsewhere I've seen "28th (Maori) Battalion" and all sorts of variations. Regards, AustralianRupert (talk) 04:52, 4 December 2011 (UTC)

ArchivesNZ who hold the official records call them the Maori Pioneer Battalion as per http://www.archway.archives.govt.nz/ViewEntity.do?code=18432 Stuartyeates (talk) 22:51, 4 December 2011 (UTC)

G'day, Stuart, the unit you are referring to is not the unit to which this article relates. The Maori Pioneer Battalion served during the First World War, while the unit to which this article relates served during the Second World War. They were two different units with different functions, i.e assault pioneer as opposed to infantry. Regards, AustralianRupert (talk) 07:20, 5 December 2011 (UTC)

This would be why I'm editing the talk page not the real article. Stuartyeates (talk) 07:28, 5 December 2011 (UTC)

No worries, mate, we all make mistakes sometime. I've made some howlers. Regards, AustralianRupert (talk) 09:39, 5 December 2011 (UTC)

Macron in formal name

Was the formal name of the Battalion written with a macron during the Battalion's existence or has it been added retrospectively? Nurg (talk) 09:33, 26 October 2012 (UTC)

I'm not certain, but I believe it was generally written without the macron. However whether this is the truly official spelling, I don't know. Macron usage is notoriously inconsistent when writing anything New Zealand and/or Māori related. And the further back in time you go, the less consistent it is, especially pākehā writers are prone to forgoing the macron. Though the technically correct spelling of Māori is either Māori or Maaori (Though Māori is vastly more common) Nawichusea (talk) 13:21, 7 August 2019 (UTC)

It's not really a question of forgoing the macron or one being "technically correct" though - in English the macron was virtually never used and indeed, contrary to the impression given on wikipedia, most native speakers today would not use it (and indeed never use macrons in general) unless they had been making an effort to keep up with the latest trends. It is perfectly good English to spell Maori without it, certainly outside NZ one virtually never encounters the new spelling with it (I worked in the British FCO so everything had to be very much official and correct and we didn't use it as recently as 2014 - the spelling was always Maori and groups like the BBC never use the macron). I think we need some research as it seems odd to have gone back to something historical and find the use of the macron - I lived in NZ during the 80s and 90s and it was never used either by whites or by Maoris themselves - I taught in Auckland and had quite a few Maori students and it was a total non-issue. Perhaps it was in use during the 1930s/40s? I have no idea. How can we find out?

Pacific Islanders participation?

Right from the beginning of the article a the "full maori" character of the battalion is exposed, but I read in New Zealand and the Pacific (Wellington, 2012, pp. 149-152) that most of the officers were Pakeha or European, and that at least 20 soldiers came from the Pacific Islands, having enrolled by pretending to be Maoris. I don't feel confidnet enough in my military history knowledge to edit the page, though. Encolpe (talk) 13:48, 11 April 2015 (UTC)

Gday. This looks like it is mentioned in the article already to me. For instance the article states:

• "... it was decided that the battalion's key positions, including its officers, non commissioned officers (NCOs) and signallers, would initially be filled largely by New Zealanders of European descent..."; and
• " 'A' Company was recruited from North Auckland; 'B' Company from Rotorua, the Bay of Plenty and Thames–Coromandel; 'C' Company from the East Coast from Gisborne to East Cape and 'D' Company from Waikato, Maniapoto, Hawkes Bay, Wellington and the South Island, as well as some Pacific Islands and the Chatham and Stewart Islands."

Or is your point that these aspects of the battalion are not mentioned in the lead? I guess it would probably be possible to mention this there too as long as it was only done briefly so as not to give it undue weight. Anotherclown (talk) 23:58, 11 April 2015 (UTC)

I had obviously misread (and missearched) the article, and it may not be significant enough to be added in the lead. Thanks for your answer! Encolpe (talk) 09:34, 14 April 2015 (UTC)

Duncan MacIntyre?

The Duncan MacIntyre (New Zealand politician) article currently reads: "...and commanded the Māori Battalion.", but the Māori Battalion article does not support this. At http://teaohou.natlib.govt.nz/journals/teaohou/issue/Mao68TeA/c3-1.html it says "In 1945, as Commanding Officer of the New Zealand Divisional Cavalry, he was given command of the 28th Maori Battalion contingent and took it to Japan", but the the Māori Battalion article says "a 270-strong contingent from the battalion was sent to Japan under the designation of 'D' Squadron, 2nd Divisional Cavalry Battalion, under the command of Major J.S Baker". Oddly the J Force article also makes no mention of him. Odd. Can anyone clarify? Snori (talk) 09:38, 5 July 2016 (UTC)

@Snori: G'day, MacIntyre was the regimental commander of the Divisional Cavalry Regiment (New Zealand), while Baker was the squadron commander. MacIntyre is listed on the Divisional Cavalry Regiment article. Regards, AustralianRupert (talk) 10:25, 5 July 2016 (UTC)

File:E 003261 E Maoris in North Africa July 1941.jpg to appear as POTD soon

Hello! This is a note to let the editors of this article know that File:E 003261 E Maoris in North Africa July 1941.jpg will be appearing as picture of the day on April 25, 2016. You can view and edit the POTD blurb at Template:POTD/2016-04-25. If this article needs any attention or maintenance, it would be preferable if that could be done before its appearance on the Main Page. — Chris Woodrich (talk) 23:39, 7 April 2016 (UTC)

Picture of the day

Survivors of the Battle of Greece from the Māori Battalion performing a haka in Helwan, Egypt, for King George II of Greece. This infantry battalion of the New Zealand Army was raised in 1940 as part of the Second New Zealand Expeditionary Force, following pressure by some Māori Members of Parliament and organisations throughout the country. The battalion fought during the Greek, North African and Italian campaigns and gained a formidable reputation. After the war, the battalion contributed a contingent of personnel to serve in Japan as part of the British Commonwealth Occupation Force, before being disbanded in January 1946.Photograph: Anonymous; restoration: Adam Cuerden