Talk:Magical Negro/Archive 4

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Archive 1 Archive 2 Archive 3 Archive 4 Archive 5 Archive 6

Trimmed Examples List

Just wanted to re-post this comment at the end of the Articles for Deletion/List of Magical Negros discussion. "Comment from the closing admin: The main article explains the matter well, and has enough examples. This one is full of items that don't fit, and doesn't have a single reference. It's not listcruft. Cruft is a mass of useless true things; this is a list of potentially useful but completely unverifiable things. Merging was not a possibility; it would've moved the problems from here to the main article. --Pablo D. Flores (Talk) 02:46, 18 March 2006 (UTC)" Rather then full reverts to the old list, I'm of the opinion that relevant, supported examples should be added individually. Sir Isaac Lime 22:18, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

Didn't want to start an edit war, so I'll just ask here. 155.84.57.253 is of the opinion that everyone on the list qualifies as a Magical Negro. I believe the article should just mention those mentioned in other sources. To cite Wikipedia's Vefifiability policy:
Information on Wikipedia must be reliable. Facts, viewpoints, theories, and arguments may only be included in articles if they have already been published by reliable and reputable sources. Articles should cite these sources whenever possible. Any unsourced material may be challenged and removed.
I had footnoted a couple of those examples with their sources, so that others could add others to the list, footnoted in a similar fashion. (See my edit on 22 March). However, 155.84.57.253 has decided to revert (with a snarky comment) the whole page, despite the many posts on this page and on the "List of Magical Negros" discussion page that the examples list is too long, not from a neutral point of view, and original research. Any one want to weigh in? Sir Isaac Lime 21:12, 23 March 2006 (UTC)
Okay, so I was weak and reverted the page one last time. I figured that, since a vote was taken on the List of Magical Negros page to delete the list, when merging was a possibility, the list has been deemed, by the community, as unnecessary. Again, I'm not saying some of those deleted examples shouldn't be on the list, I'm just saying they need to be cited. Sir Isaac Lime 20:30, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

Tommy Johnson from O Brother Where Art Thou?

Just another suggestion. --Steerpike 22:41, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

Can you find multiple citations? Sir Isaac Lime 23:02, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

Annotating Examples

Please reference all examples added. All examples should be mentioned in another source/sources in regards to the Magical Negro archetype. Remember, no original research. Previously, this list became a catch-all list of all African-Americans in movies, almost all of them unsupported. The Magical Negro is a very specific archetype, and adding examples that isn't a glaring example weakens the overall article. I don't think Wikipedia should be here to say what is and isn't an example of a Magical Negro, but merely to point out to people the most glaring examples of this archetype.

I have been using the standard Wikipedia Footnote system. You can check the Wikipedia:Footnotes page for more information on how to add footnotes. For those articles already footnoted, you can use the same name in the footnote, so they show up as the same footnote number in the references section (and are not repeated). You can then reference that footnote by merely using <ref name="NAME OF FOOTNOTE" />. This also saves copying the whole URL. Make sure you use it after a previous usage of that footnote, however. The names already used are:

As with any article about a contentious subject, the article has had to go through some major overhauls in the past. Since many examples were not clear-cut, they were frequently added, removed, added, discussed, removed, and so on (as looking at the early discussions and history of the article shows). Keeping everything referenced will hopefully keep that from happening again. Thanks, Sir Isaac Lime 20:26, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

God

I don't think that God in Bruce Almighty is a Magycal Negro. At less not so much as God in Bedazzled :) By the way, I think that Juba in Gladiator and Frozono in The Incredibles were perfect Magycal Negroes.

Unless you can find a reputable source that says as much, the point is moot. Remember, Wikipedia is not for original research. This is a very specific archetype, as discussed by various social commentators. If the list were merely "Do you think about this character who is of African descent isn't all that great?" (as it once was), it would quickly become a free-for-all of people adding and removing characters with no logical reason.
Frozone is a perfect example. I, for instance, would disagree. He fails to have any of the main attributes of the Magical Negro. He is not mystical (note that mystical implies not superpowers, but a mystic ability to see into characters), he is not part of the plot merely to save the day at an opportune time, but instead a deliberate parody of all sidekicks. He is, if anything, closer to a Tonto (Lone Ranger character) type character than a Magical Negro. Whether or not we disagree, however, the important thing is that other sources do not claim he is a Magical Negro, so he is not on the list. Sir Isaac Lime 20:17, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
ROFL! When I dropped into this discussion, I thought you were talking about Fasto from Minoriteam, not Frozone ... both of them are better examples of the Stepin Fetchit kind of negro archetype.
But the point remains, just because a black character has some kind of power does not automagically make them a Magical negro, anymore than George Burns playing God makes him a Magical Jew. (Jebus, didn't it explicitly exclude "playing God" from the frelling definition?) --Dennette 03:32, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
Then you can't include Will Smith as Bagger Vance either as the character of Bagger Vance is Krishna from the Gita —Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.22.53.86 (talk) 06:14, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

Girl, Interrupted (film)

The Contoversy section of that article contains the phrase, "... the sympathetic nurse character played by Whoopi Goldberg embodies the magic negro stereotype."

After researching the character's name and adding an entry to this article, someone summarily deleted it ... maybe because I didn't include an explicit reference to the above mentioned Wiki article as the source?

Anywho, if anyone else agrees with me, would you please put it back? (That way it's not just my opinion. :-) -- Dennette 23:15, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

Sorry, that was probably me. There are a lot of superfluous examples added to this article, and if they're not referenced, I delete them (there's a long story, and many community discussions behind this). By all means add it back, just try to find where someone outside of Wikipedia said that the character was an example of the Magical Negro archetype. Then just add the URL for that site or sites at the end of her name, on this page, or according to the footnotes description above. Hope I didn't make you feel like your contribution was without merit, it just got thrown out with the bathwater. Like I said, find a citation. Also, it seems that the part of the Girl, Interrupted article you mentioned was deleted for the same reason: no citation. Sir Isaac Lime 01:21, 19 July 2006 (UTC) (EDIT: My mistake, I was looking at the page for the book, not the movie. However, after you find some citations, I'd say add them to this page and the Girl, Interrupted (film) page.Sir Isaac Lime 01:23, 19 July 2006 (UTC))
Uhh ... that was the question ... can a link to the Wiki page for Girl, Interrupted (film) be used as the citation? Isn't it sufficient that Magical negro has Girl, Interrupted on its What links here page? Or must there be an explicit citation from a non-Wiki source?
Oh, wait ... you're implying that the mention on the Girl, Interrupted page also needs an external citation, aren't you? Belgium! --Dennette 03:51, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
Exactly. They both need outside citations.Sir Isaac Lime 04:02, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

Scatman Crothers in The Twilight Zone

Doesn't he qaulify as being the Magical Negro in the Rest Home bit of the movie. He certainly was magical, he was wise, he helped the white residents acknowledge and overcome thier faults. I think he's a perfect example.

Score two for Scatman with Morgan in the lead still. --Skeev 20:15, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

If you can find and cite a reputable source outside of Wikipedia that says Scatman in The Twilight Zone is a blatant example of the Magical Negro archetype, then add it. Otherwise, it is considered original research. The page doesn't need to list every time the archetype is used, just the most blatant ones, to give readers a better idea of the topic being discussed. Sir Isaac Lime 00:06, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

God in Bruce Almighty

People keep adding Morgan Freeman as God in Bruce Almighty as an example of a Magical Negro ... they have totally failed to grasp the concept of this archetype. The character of God could just as easily have been played by a white man, or by a woman (like Alanis Morissette in Dogma) ... this was a casting decision, pure and simple. They will never find a reputable source to cite for this example! --72.75.71.147 14:48, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

Cited. And the point is *any* of the magical negro characters could have been played by any race, but were cast as black to fit the archetype. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dejitaru (talk • contribs) 08:21, 6 December 2006
That is not the point at all ... the majority are created that way by the authors (see the Stephen King examples), i.e., their physical description, backstory, and scripted dialog all preculde them being "played by any race", rather than having been "casting" decisions.
The point is that "God" is not a fictional character created by the author, and in this specific instance, a "little old Polish cleaning woman" could have read the same lines in nearly every scene as the "elderly African American janitor", since they were neither race nor gender specific, quite unlike the fictional "13th Apostle" character in Dogma, who repeatedly blames his obscurity on institutional racism ("A brother can't catch a break!") ... you could not have cast Alanis Morissette in that role!
But this entire discussion is now moot ... a citation has been found to support the opinion that this is a valid example of the archetype ... please, just don't add "Queen Latifah a ghetto goddess in Bringing Down the House" as another example just because it's in the same article ... I think that we have enough examples already. --72.75.105.165 05:17, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
Riiiiight. I suppose casting Jack Nicholson as God would upset black rights groups. I don't know who could be cast as God without offending someone. Perhaps Halle Berry? --132.69.234.73 (talk) 23:10, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

Fortune in Rudy

I changed an earlier addition of "That black dude in rudy" to "Fortune (Charles S. Dutton) in the film Rudy (1993)" to make the reference meet basic style requirements. However, I do not remember anything magical about Fortune. He shared bits of wisdom with Rudy, was a friend, and turned a blind eye to certain things, but that does not make him magical. I would like other opinions. --Willscrlt 11:20, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

You are correct ... this is not a valid example, so I have reverted that entry (and that editor's vandalism) ... when you edit the section, it clearly states:
**WARNING** Do not add an example unless you have a reference!!
Otherwise, such entries violate WP:NOR, and this article has already become a cruft magnet for movie fanboys, like this reference to Rudy. —72.75.93.131 (talk · contribs) 14:01, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
Thanks. I knew the info as-submitted was worthless, but I thought I'd clean it up a bit and wait for a second opinion. :-) --Willscrlt 01:08, 4 December 2006 (UTC)


Agreement among a choir

I dont think there can be an agreement which last a 1000 years blocking. Blatent examples are being hidden from the reader this violates the development of this article. Editors cannot have a rule which is so strictly applied to only one section of teh article, they also cannot add WARNINGS telling other editors what they can add by some choir agreement. The entire description violates WP:NOR. This article must be open to others to investigate what exactly is going on here. Please do not continue to remove examples because of some broad application of OR, when the description has ZERO refernces and thus is OR by that standard! This page seems to be edited by a sub-group of wiki which picks which rules to use and where to apply these rules, where in OR does it say you can do this?--HalaTruth(ሐላቃህ) 04:00, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

The reason the OR rule was applied more strictly to the list of examples is because that is where the most egregious errors were. The page had become a listing of every character played by a black actor. This watered down and confused the issue of dealing with what, exactly, this stereotype is and why it is harmful.
The description had no references, true, but that's because it needed them. If one area does not contain references, that does not mean that the entire article can be free of citations. Please see previous edits of the article, and read through the talk page, for an understanding of how a consensus was reached in regards to examples in this article.Sir Isaac Lime 17:03, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

Here via the Request for Comments. Tagging parts of the article as possible original research was appropriate; those things should be cited, and anything that remains unsourced after 2 or 3 weeks should be cut. However, the fact that not everything in the article has a citation yet is not a justification for adding uncited items to an otherwise well-cited list. It's not essential to the article to name every possible example, anyway; a few of the best and most commonly named ones is enough.

If Guinan is such a good example, then there should be good sources saying so. Why not look for those sources rather than trying to fight a very well-established policy? —Celithemis 23:25, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

  • I also came via the RfC. Quite simply, there must be a reference in order to add material to a page like this. This is a pervasive problem on wikipedia - for example, look at List of flops in entertainment, which I nominated for deletion. Dozens of editors have simply added what they feel to be appropriate examples, with no references. Frequently these examples are simply wrong. This is not a matter of any editors out to "get" HalaTruth, nor is it a broad application of the OR rule, it is the OR rule.-Dmz5*Edits**Talk* 15:06, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

the issue has been fixed as all editors have agreed sources r needed everywhere. wish someone would apply this rule to the rest of wiki.--HalaTruth(ሐላቃህ) 17:40, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

I get the impression that sources were not emphasized nearly as much a year or 2 or 3 ago; it's relatively recent that a consensus has developed to make this as reliable a resource as possible. So there is now a constant battle to improve existing articles without deleting them or ruining them. Cases like this article are a relatively easy fix - just don't add to a list without a source. -Dmz5*Edits**Talk* 03:17, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
To me Guinan is such an obvious magic negro, I was going to add her. Then I realized that every item on the list was cited, so I went searching for a cite. I found one, then realized it was quoting a former version of this page. She's definitely a magic negro, but we need a cite.
Also, the World's Smartest Garbageman in Dilbert fills a magic negro sort of role, but he's white.  Randall Bart   Talk  20:50, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

Drudge / LA Times

This article was linked to by the LA Times, mislinked actually "http://en.-wikipedia.org/wiki/Magical_Negro". Drudge has linked to this article, so expect high traffic. (Ehrenstein, David (2007-03-19). "Obama the 'Magic Negro'". Los Angeles Times. Retrieved 2007-03-19. {{cite news}}: Check date values in: |date= (help)) — Steven Andrew Miller (talk) 21:29, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

Keep it Topical, Not Political

Removed the reference to David Ehrenstein's article. One statement by one opinion writer in one newspaper is not sufficient justification for making a link between the archetype and Barack Obama. 64.173.255.7 00:46, 20 March 2007 (UTC)Brandon P


Try looking at it from this angle

Maybe the use of 'magical negros' is needed to show the difference in the experiences of the two major races here (white and black). The MN is used to show that the 'hero' that needs help is having a hard time because his spoiled ass has never had to overcome adversity. While the MN has had to endure racism, slavery, etc...

I can see how this is not the best light to show African-Americans, Negros, what have you, in - but I posit that it does show a respect for wisdom and strength while in the same breadth acknowledging the white mans easier road and immaturity as a result of no proverbial mountain to climb.

The MN is grown and stronger helping a child on his way. Not the worst way to look at it right? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 128.122.253.196 (talk) 23:55, 19 March 2007 (UTC).

Thanks for your remarks. The article does make a strong case. However the contrarian in me wants to look at the other side too. The magical wizard, helper, advisor to the hero is a common feature in many stories. Look at Gandalf, Merlin, Olbi Wan Kanobi. They filled much the same role as the magic negroes, yet they were not black. Besides, the casting of black actors in these roles at least gives them some work. :-) Seriously, there are many movies with blacks in the lead roles as well. Steve Dufour 12:03, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
OK, Ill just assume by adversity you are are always referring to the racial sense of the word. Adversity comes in many forms besides race, in fact where ever the is social divisions based on wealth, religion, ideology, sex etc. Every person overcomes adversity an thus grows, even whites, they just may not do so in the racial sense.
Anyway I see your conflict on how to feel about this. Do we admire the MN for enduring, having what it takes to persevere, and enlightening white people? On the other hand, do we blast this notion of "honoring" the MN in a sense that ironically still places them in the role as a servant to he white man? Personally I choose the former, as it is less restrictive to free speech, though I think Steve brought up an interesting point.
In any case this is pointless because this is not the kind of discussion we are supposed to have here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:What_Wikipedia_is_not#FORUM LarsendeSLO (talk) 08:42, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

Obama the 'Magic Negro'

—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Bnguyen (talk • contribs) 08:45, 20 March 2007 (UTC).

Text dump of copyrighted article removed; people can click on the link to read it. -- Infrogmation 23:44, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

Temporary semi-protection

As The LA Times article mentions and links to this article and we seem to be getting some related anon vandalism, I've semi-protected (no edits by anon or just signed up users) for a week. -- Infrogmation 23:44, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

Is this paragraph needed?

For these reasons, a black actor performing as God in a film (like Morgan Freeman in Bruce Almighty) is not generally considered an example of the magical negro archetype, although one commentator does.[2] Since God is not a character created by the author, and has neither race nor gender, a person of any race or gender could also be selected to perform the role, like Alanis Morissette in Dogma (although another commentator asserts that, "Chris Rock’s Thirteenth Apostle in Dogma is one example."[6])

There is nothing wrong with it with WP policy. However, it is hard to understand the point it is trying to make. Is the race of an actor playing the role of God an issue that comes up very often? Do you want the article to end on this note? Thanks. Steve Dufour 12:11, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

Yes, that very issue comes up way too often ... there were frequent edit reverts about it several months ago, and not for the first time ... anon. editors kept adding it without a source, so others kept removing it ... this article had become an OR magnet, as the discussions here show, and every newbie wanted to be the first one to add it to the list "because it obviously fits the description." —141.156.235.132 (talk · contribs) 15:36, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

Why was a citation request deleted and not addressed?

Why was the [citation needed] attached to the assertion that this term has been used since the 1950s deleted and not addressed? This is contrary to Wikipedia practice.

For that matter, why is this page currently protected? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.132.236.33 (talk • contribs) 20:39, 23 March 2007

Why don't you provide an edit summary or sign your posts? For that matter, why don't you bother reading these discussion pages before you ask questions that have already been answered? (See Talk:Magical negro#Temporary semi-protection.) --141.156.235.132 22:53, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
I deleted the citation request and said something like "it may have been used" in its place. If you think the information about the expression being used in the 1950s is wrong then just remove it. I thought that the person who put it in must have had a reason and it is interesting information that doesn't do any harm. The need for the citation is still clear without the tag and the readers are not distracted. If you feel the tag is needed put it back and I will not remove it again. Steve Dufour 03:26, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

http://sonypictures.com/movies/reignoverme/index.html

Can this movie be a considered a "current" example? If no more examples are to be allowed than perhaps a discussion should be initiated as to why it continues. Why does America need a "magical Negro"? I'll start it with the notion of guilt abatement; Does the "magical Negro" mollify white guilt? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 151.203.22.54 (talk • contribs) 00:57, 24 March 2007

Yes, that is part of it. I think the point was made in the article. If not find someone who wrote about it and put it in with a cite. Steve Dufour 02:44, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

guilt

I have read up and acknowledge the pre-points made (LA Times). The true basis of the phenomenon has yet to be explored thoroughly though. Agreement on the "guilt factor" seems to have been established in part at this time. There is also the psychological,societal,economic,and class factors that need to be explored and sorted out. Anyone game?, History, sociology and psychology talent would be appreciated. Yes, I will eventually sign on officially but until then let's discuss!!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 151.203.22.54 (talk • contribs) 15:38, 24 March 2007

You could write an essay on it and send it in to your local newspaper to be published. Then we could cite your findings in the article. Steve Dufour 16:39, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
BTW Because of reading this article I went to Blockbuster to rent Bagger Vance but they were out of it. Steve Dufour 02:15, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

What about Uncle Tom and Uncle Remus?

Isn't Uncle Tom the original archetype of the magical negro? The granddaddy of all magical negroes. Or is that casting the net too wide? If not, could someone please write an explanation explaining why? If he's not a "magical negro" then what is the correct term? Reference: http://laughingbone.blogspot.com/2005/09/3-vectors-of-magical-negro.html —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 222.158.224.202 (talk) 03:29, 8 May 2007 (UTC).

External links

I used {{cite web}} templates for the two URLs in the "External links" section ... in the process of verifying that they did not violate WP:EL, I used the |title= value that I found in the HTML header on the site, so if you don't like how it's capitalized, don't blame me!

BTW, I dropped in because I saw that Some Other Editors were reverting each other's "negro"/"black" changes in the title of a cited reference, so I decided to follow the URL, do a "View Source" to see what the <TITLE> field contained, and that's what I used. By following the links and actually reading the pages, I also found |date= and |author= values for one of them.

So, if Some Other Editor wants to revert my changes as vandalism because

  1. I'm an anonymous IP, and
  2. they don't understand exactly what it was that I did, but
  3. the references "look different", and
  4. it's easier to just UNDO my contribution and MOVE ON,

well, then that's everyone's loss, IMHO ... Happy Editing! —68.239.79.82 10:46, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

Chef

How about Chef on South Park as a re-current parody of this character? (Eeesh 14:47, 6 June 2007 (UTC))

Read the Very First message on this discussion page, "No more examples, please" … always scan the previous messages on a discussion page before you post one of your own, as your question may already have been answered. —72.75.70.147 06:40, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
Actually I think Chef would be an excellent example, since he is positive, plays a deus ex-machina role, is not magical, is handcapped by his social status and is subservient to whites though is actually in control, is happy go lucky and helpful, has the stereotypical liability of being a womanizer, sings "black" songs, has no past, etc... This is an example so good that I think it is worth amending the list. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Michalchik (talk • contribs) 23:46, 28 December 2008 (UTC)

Changing cited quotations

Some Other Editors added the words 'Rufus' is to a direct quotation from a cited reference … read the article linked to the footnote, and you'll see that what is in the double quotes is what the author said, so adding content makes it an incorrect quotation … I have reverted the contributions to restore what was written and published by the author … Happy Editing! —72.75.70.147 06:40, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

The Chris Rock Show

In one episode (from October 2000), there is a sketch called "Migger," in which Rock plays a "magical" Bagger Vance-like character.--—Wasabe3543 04:22, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

  • This is how I first learned of the concept of "Magic Negro". I've added a reference to it in the intro. Kevyn 10:03, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
I have reverted your "reference" because it is unsupported by the citation footnote (Jones, D. Marvin (2005). Race, Sex, and Suspicion: The Myth of the Black Male. Westport, Conn.: Praeger Publishers. pp. p. 35. ISBN 0275974626. OCLC 56095393. {{cite book}}: |pages= has extra text (help)) ... you can't just stick things in and expect the edit summary (a sketch on an episode of an un-named 2000 TV sitcom) to provide the only Reliable source for Attribution ... Happy Editing! —72.75.65.41 15:36, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
I disagree with your assessment of it being "unsupported," as a verifiable source can be cited (the Chris Rock Show) so I am reverting your edit. GHappy reverting! Kevyn 07:00, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
Then find sufficient WP:RS to create a {{Cite episode}} tag for the references ... even as neologisms go, this one is very hard to find. —72.75.65.41 11:33, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

Cicely Tyson in "Because of Winn-Dixie"

Unfortunately I can't find a citation, but the role of Gloria Dump (Cicely Tyson) in "Because of Winn-Dixie" (2005) is entirely prototypical. She is a blind, reclusive former alcoholic regarded by the local children as a witch, who turns out to be of kindly, mysterious help to the young white protagonist. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.77.109.176 (talk • contribs) 02:47, 26 June 2007

Unless it's been published somewhere else, it violates No Original Research, and cannot be added ... BTW, there is no point in posting "suggestions" on this discussion page, because that's an official policy, so they cannot be added by the consensus of other contributors ... and please learn to sign your posts if you are going to be a regular contributor here. —72.75.85.234 (talk · contribs) 03:21, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
I just noticed that Some Other Editor added it with a citation:

Thompson, Gary (2005-02-18). "'Winn-Dixie' Gets No Place Fast". The Philadelphia Daily News. Philadelphia Media Holdings LLC. Retrieved 2007-07-21. {{cite news}}: Check date values in: |date= (help); Cite has empty unknown parameter: |coauthors= (help)

Good Contribution! —72.75.96.83 (talk · contribs) 13:02, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

"variety of media" I mean

  • not sure what's already been addressed, but--- I'm sure this stereotype does appear in other media but I don't see it in the article other than the obama/limbaugh stuff.
  • "ostenesibly" in the quote that I modified seems to suggest that his help
 magic seems to be directed toward helping and enlightening a white male character."

but maybe, in fact it's not. but it seems that way.

am I reading this right? is that what ostensibly modifies? does heather hicks mean to say that the magic may not actually directing to help the whitey protagonist? I'm confused. I dunno. The Chiggernaut, Bitch! 18:27, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

I won't debate the author's intentions, but I have reverted your contribution to restore what is actually said in the cited reference for the quotation, i.e., the word "ostensibly" ... see a previous thread here about changing words (or even punctuation) in cited quotes ... BTW, Good Call on renaming that section ... Happy Editing! —72.75.96.83 (talk · contribs) 22:14, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

Removing cited examples

I have reverted the removal of Mother Abigail as an example ... if you read the cited article in the footnote, the author says,

"In the epic novel The Stand Mother Abigail is powerfully religious and magical."

All I did was follow the link in the footnote ("Stephen King's Super-Duper Magical Negroes". Strange Horizons. 2004-10-25. {{cite news}}: Check date values in: |date= (help)), and then did a search on the page for "Abigail" ... you should always check the reference of any example or quotation before deleting or changing it ... please read Talk:Magical negro#Changing cited quotations as well ... Happy Editing! —72.75.65.41 (talk · contribs) 14:31, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

The term "Magic"

Apart from the term 'magic' pertaining literally to a supernatural presence or personification (e.g., Morgan Freeman's God), the term is being freely extended to include high-achieving African-Americans. It is unfortunate and potentially socially telling that high achievers' accomplishments/status would be willingly attributed to unexplained, unaccountable or supernatural influences. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.59.74.194 (talk) 00:24, 23 November 2007 (UTC)


White people

Some Other Editor thought that it would be politically correct to replace all occurrences of "white" with either "European-descendant" or "European-American" ... I have reverted their good faith contributions, and (as per Manual of Style) I have wikilinked the first occurrence of "white" with "White people" ... if the reader follows the link, eventually they should encounter "Eurocentrism" ... 'Nuff Said! —72.75.72.63 (talk · contribs) 02:38, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

I forgot to mention that one of their blanket edits changed the title of a cited reference:
  1. Gabbard, Krin (2004). Black Magic: White European-American Hollywood and African American Culture. New Brunswick, NJ: Rutgers University Press. pp. p. 173. ISBN 081353383X. OCLC 53215708. {{cite book}}: |pages= has extra text (help)
That's another good example of When PC Goes Bad (just ask the "wopersons" and "fepeople", or maybe even the shemales :-)... I also added some YEAR in literature wikilinks for the Stephen King novels ... and that's about as much lipstick as I can put on this pig for now, so it must be time for me to MOVE ON ... Happy Editing! —72.75.72.63 (talk) 21:29, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

Morpheus.

I've only just stumbled across the term, but why is Morpheus not considered a magical negro? He ends up vastly less powerful than Neo and (more importantly) he sacrifices himself to save Neo, even if he was later rescued. Sounds like he fits the definition to me. --Irrevenant [ talk ] 22:15, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

Please see the previous messages in this forum about, "I think Xyz should be considered one" ... you must find a reliable, published source where someone else has made such an assertion ... also see Wikipedia:No original research. — 72.75.72.63 (talk · contribs) 22:31, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
http://www.blackcommentator.com/49/49_magic.html (already referenced in the article) explicitly states that Laurence Fishbourne (as Morpheus) is a magical negro. This is the opposite of what the article claims the reference says (with regard to Morpheus, anyway). --Irrevenant [ talk ] 07:51, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
P.S. Both of my comments refer to this paragraph: "Note, however, that black characters with apparent supernatural powers who are portrayed as independent, who have a level of power roughly equivalent to that of other characters, and who are not subservient to whites — such as Mace Windu (Samuel L. Jackson) in Star Wars, Morpheus (Laurence Fishburne) in the Matrix series, and Storm (Halle Berry) in the X-Men — are not usually considered weakened magical negroes; nor are helpful non-white characters without some magical or fantastical element." --Irrevenant [ talk ] 07:55, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
Noone responded and the reference supported it, so I made the change --Irrevenant [ talk ] 19:52, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
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