Talk:Main South Line

Lyttelton or Christchurch?

Where do we consider the Main South Line as beginning? My main source for NZ's railway history, The Railways Of New Zealand: A Journey Through History by Churchman and Hurst, creates a distinction between the Main Trunk and the Lyttelton Branch, but I see a Wikipedia editor has changed this article to state the line commences in Lyttelton. I'm not sure whether to write a separate article on the Lyttelton Branch (its history, electrification, de-electrification, etc.), or whether I should include that here. Thoughts? - Axver 09:40, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

Officially, and according to Rails That Built A Nation (Robin Bromby) and New Zealand Railway and Tramway Atlas, the Main South Line begins at Lyttelton and terminates at Invercargill (ref. Final Decision of place names). It was originally part of the Lyttelton-Christchurch-Rakaia broad-gauge section operated by the Canterbury Provincial Council which was known at the time as the Canterbury Great Southern Railway. -- Matthew25187 11:39, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

Revisiting Lyttelton's status

Well, it's been over a year since I made the above comment, and I'd like to resolve the matter. There's plenty of info on the Christchurch-Lyttelton section and I am unsure of what to do. I see two options, of which I favour the first:

1. A separate article detailing the line's construction, (de-)electrification, and suburban train operations. I'm not sure whether it should be at Lyttelton Branch as in the template {{NZR Lines}} or at the perhaps more fitting Lyttelton Line as it's just a segment of the Main South Line.

2. A subsection of this article.

Any thoughts this time around? - Axver 02:57, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

I am not in favour of such an article being titled "Lyttelton Branch", as that is not a term I recall seeing in any published sources. If there is to be a separate article for this part of the line, it should probably be titled Christchurch - Lyttelton Line in line with the Wellington - Manawatu Line and Hutt Valley Line / Rimutaka Incline articles on the North Island Main Trunk and Wairarapa Line respectively.

As you point out, this section of the Main South Line has been given the prominence of a separate section in The Railways of New Zealand, and it is important in its own right for several reasons, including: being part of the first public railway in the country, having the first railway tunnel in the country, its connection with the Ferrymead Branch (as the Woolston - Ferrymead section was known after the tunnel opened), its operation as the first electrified suburban line in the country, being one of the first suburban lines in the country to lose its passenger services, etc. I am not opposed to such an article (if you believe there is sufficient information to warrant it), with appropriate links to it in the Main South Line article.

If you are planning to write such an article, I can recommend a couple of good sources; Pioneer Electrics (A. J. Pickering), Canterbury Provincial Railways (W. A. Pierre). -- Matthew25187 11:39, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

For some reason, I thought I had a couple of sources that referred to the "Lyttelton Branch". I just checked them and they indeed refer to the "Lyttelton Line". So any suggestion of titling the page "Lyttelton Branch" should be dropped. I've amended {{NZR Lines}} to reflect this. Lyttelton Line is probably the clearest and most concise title and, like you mention, fits with precedent.

I unfortunately don't have much in the way of source material - only the five or so paragraphs in The Railways of New Zealand, and the books you mention aren't available in my university's library. I was thinking of starting the article in the next few days, but maybe I'll hold off until I have more sources. It's just that we've almost finished the entire South Island. The only other articles left to go are the Cape Foulwind Branch and the Nelson Section, at least as far as NZR trackage is concerned. If you'd like to start Lyttelton Line, I'd be cool with that - let me know if you do.

Also, you raise an interesting point. Was Lyttelton in fact the first to lose commuter services? Wellington hasn't lost any; the Onehunga Branch held on until April 1973, and Dunedin's disappeared over 1979-82. The last Invercargill-Bluff service was in 1967, but whether that constituted a commuter service may be open to debate. I am admittedly not very familiar with Christchurch's former commuter system; were other routes cancelled earlier? - Axver 13:12, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

I have access to/own source material that I was planning to use to write articles for the Nelson Section and Nelson Railway Proposals as time permits, and could - if need be - write the other two articles you mention as I also own or have access to source material for them also.

If it helps any, the last passenger service between Christchurch and Lyttelton ran on 1972-02-28, between Christchurch and Rangiora sometime in 1976 (I have yet to locate an actual date), and I believe (though unconfirmed) that there also used to be suburban services between Christchurch and Burnham (dates unknown) that served the Addington, Hornby, Islington, Middleton, Rolleston, Sockburn, Templeton, and Weedons stations (roughly half of which were actually in Christchurch itself). Christchurch definitely lost all its remaining suburban passenger services in the 1970s. Earlier cancelled passenger services from Christchurch plied routes to the various rural branch lines in Canterbury, including Whitecliffs Branch, Waiau Branch, Little River Branch, Southbridge Branch and out to Springfield on the Midland Line, though none of these qualify as either suburban or commuter services. -- Matthew25187 23:43, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

OK, that sounds great. I think I have enough to do a decent Cape Foulwind Branch article and I'll probably do it in the next day or so. I've thought about doing the Nelson Section for a while as I have sources too, but I'm honestly a bit overwhelmed by the volume of information. I certainly wouldn't object if you wrote it - Dun Mountain Railway is great, much better than what I was going to do. And I have very little of substance on Nelson Railway Proposals, just the blurb in The Railways of New Zealand, so I couldn't do that. Speaking of proposals, I don't suppose you (or anybody else following this Talk page) have anything on Wainuiomata Railway Proposals? I have a draft for such an article on my computer, but I'm not that happy with it at the moment and if you've got anything, it'd probably be of use.

Thanks for the suburban services info. It's a shame the info is often so sketchy. I would consider the aforementioned Invercargill-Bluff train cancelled in 1967 to be a commuter service - in 1950, it was more intensive than the Wairarapa Connection is today, with 7 trains each way (8 on Fridays). So I suppose it just beats Christchurch for losing suburban trains first, though if that Burnham train was gone by 1967, it may just get the title of first service cancelled. Also, I have heard some mutterings about returning commuter trains to Christchurch, possibly with rolling stock displaced from Auckland by electrification. Do you know anything about this, or is it just railfan wishful thinking? - Axver 01:36, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

To be honest, I was a little intrigued when I first saw Wainuiomata Railway Proposals in the Lines template, as the only knowledge I have on the subject was a mention in A Line Of Railway about an early (and short-lived) proposal from a local farmer for the Wairarapa Line to pass, in part, through the Wainuiomata valley and a later proposal in the 1920s at the time replacements for the Rimutaka Incline were being considered for a new route to the Wairarapa to pass through Wainuiomata with the aid of several tunnels. There is a private, narrow-gauge line - complete with tunnel - in the Orongorongo ranges that is used to access and service water reticulation infrastructure, but it has never been open to the public apart from occasional excursions AFAIK. There was a tunnel started in the 1930s between Wainuiomata and Gracefield (the Hutt Valley portal of which can still be seen at the end of Tunnel Grove), but that was only intended to carry a two-lane road (much like the Mt. Victoria Tunnel in Wellington) and now carries a water main. Any information beyond that on this subject is news to me.

According to Rails That Built A Nation, Invercargill was the first city to lose its suburban passenger services when the Bluff-Invercargill services were withdrawn in 1967. On this point you are quite correct that the Christchurch-Lyttelton line was not the first to which this happened.

I do recall reading somewhere that the Main South Line out of Christchurch was double-tracked at least through Templeton for the benefit of suburban passenger workings and that when the passenger trains were withdrawn from this part of the line that it reverted to single-track. Rails That Built A Nation mentions that in the 1940s there were daily passenger trains between Christchurch and Ashburton. There may be some additional information on Christchurch services in the CRS, NZRLS or other local archives that I could check on some day.

There is some information on future plans for Christchurch rail in my Rail transport in Christchurch article. Recently elected Christchurch mayor Bob Parker has promised (or at least claimed) to be an advocate for rail to become part of the Christchurch public transport network. I understand that Environment Canterbury has at least drawn up a proposal for passenger services between Rolleston and Rangiora, though there are no plans at this time for it to move beyond the proposal stage. I suppose if passenger services were to be reintroduced to Christchurch, utilising the ex-Perth DMUs from Auckland would be a logical choice, as the electrification of the Auckland network is supposed to be operational ~2010. -- Matthew25187 07:08, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

I just put what I know about Wainuiomata proposals on my sandbox. Unfortunately, I seem to have mislaid any references, but I know all the info in there came from good sources of one kind or another. I wish I could actually find the 1963 and 1975 reports - the 1975 subway sounds particularly interesting. I'm not familiar with the Wairarapa Line proposal though (probably because it was short-lived!), but when/if I make the article, it'd be good if you could add it.

The info regarding MSL double-tracking in Christchurch and the trains to Ashburton is unfamiliar to me. I mainly know about the services around Dunedin, i.e. the 1906-14 double-tracking project, the reversion to single track after the end of the Mosgiel subbies in 1982, and the services run to Port Chalmers and Palmerston. Now Dunedin Railway Station, there's a place that deserves much more use than it gets. I'll have to get my hands on a copy of Rails That Built A Nation, it sounds like a really good read.

Huh, I've even got the rail transport in Christchurch article on my watchlist and I'd somehow overlooked the section about recent developments. Things don't sound terribly promising though, and the last time I heard a politician elected on promises of public transport, precisely nothing happened (I lived on the Gold Coast, and let me tell you, if the ex-mayor's tramway was built, it must be invisible). Hopefully things will really kick into gear once Auckland's electrification is in full swing and the question of what to do with the DMUs becomes more immediate. Any services beyond the electrified zones would probably be capably handled by the SA/SD sets (I don't think anyone wants to be riding in those DMUs all the way from Pukekohe and hopefully Helensville anyway), and they've only just been refurbished so they've got life left in them. Here's hoping for the best for Christchurch and Dunedin. - Axver 11:33, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

I'll make some calls, see if I can track down copies of those two reports you mentioned. -- Matthew25187 23:45, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

Proposed move and disambiguation

Please see this talk page discussion at WikiProject NZ for more information. Fork99 (talk) 12:49, 3 July 2023 (UTC)