Talk:Malankara Syrian Orthodox Church

Undiscussed content removal

@Johnchacks: I don't know why you have reverted the content. But let me tell you, this article is not a fork of Jacobite Syrian Christian Church. Jude Didimus (talk) 05:41, 17 March 2022 (UTC)

@Jude Didimus: First of all, you did the content removal from this page, it was a redirect to the page Jacobite Syrian Christian Church. What is your intention in taking out that redirection and creating a different article with same information? I also noticed that you are replacing the references "Jacobite Syrian Christian Church" with "Malankara Syrian Orthodox Church" in other pages too. 'Jacobite Syrian Christian Church' is the official name of the Church since 2002. @User:Veverve,@User:Liz, @User:RegentsPark,@User:Deepfriedokra , I think you are in admins panel, so requesting to intervene in this matter. ---John C. (talk) 06:02, 17 March 2022 (UTC)

Jacobite Syrian Christian Church is the Indian Archdiocese. There is another Archdiocese called the Malankara Syrian Orthodox Archdiocese of North America. Another Archdiocese exists for Knanaya Malankara Syrian Orthodox faithful in India. There is yet another Archdiocese for Honovar Mission. Furthermore, there is an Archdiocese for Simhasana churches Jude Didimus (talk) 05:45, 17 March 2022 (UTC)

"Jacobite Syian Christian Church (Malankara Archdiocese of the Syrian Orthodox Church in India)

Catholicos Aboon Mor Baselios Thomas I" i.e. Jacobite Syrian Christian Church is the Indian Archdiocese. Jude Didimus (talk) 06:05, 17 March 2022 (UTC)

@Jude Didimus: so what is this page about? The infoboxes in two articles are clearly showing both are pointing to same Church!! ---John C. (talk) 06:08, 17 March 2022 (UTC)

No. There's difference. The Jacobite Syrian Christian Church is the Malankara Syrian Orthodox Archdiocese of India. It covers only India. The Malankara Syrian Orthodox Archdiocese of North America covers only North America. The Malankara Syrian Orthodox Church covers all of these and is clearly distinguished from the Syriac Orthodox Archdioceses. However the MSOC doesn't have a common hierarchical organization led by a single leader. Jude Didimus (talk) 06:13, 17 March 2022 (UTC)

@Jude Didimus:, you can not club two archdioceses and write a single article as per your wish. Its called POV - point of view . The infobox you added in this article is telling you are telling a lie. Because the details in that infobox is about Jacobite Syrian Christian Church, including the website given there. - --John C. (talk) 06:41, 17 March 2022 (UTC)

There are are enough references given in the introduction of the article Jacobite Syrian Christian Church saying that The Jacobite Syrian Christian Church (JSCC)is also known as the Malankara Jacobite Syrian Orthodox Church and thats a fact too. The content you added here does not containing any info about the name of this title, just duplicate of data of JSCC article. - --John C. (talk) 06:50, 17 March 2022 (UTC)

I think you haven't read the article in full. These are some excerpts from a source:

"The Malankara Syriac Orthodox Church has today 17 dioceses and more than 600 churches in India and several educational and medical institutions as well as social service organizations. Nearly 80 parishes have been established in North America, Europe, the Persian Gulf, Singapore, Australia, and New Zealand. A few of the churches in India are also claimed by the autocephalous Malankara Orthodox Church and are often uneasily shared under court direction or are closed for worship. Since 2002, the Catholicate is at Puthenkurishu, near Kochi. In addition to the cath. there are 29 bishops. The number of faithful is estimated to be over a million; the vast majority are concentrated in the dioceses of Ankamaly, Kochi (Cochin), Kandanad, and Kottayam — all in central Kerala.

The Cath. of India exercises authority over 15 dioceses as well as institutions under the Malankara Synod which has 17 bishops. Churches of the diaspora outside India are directly under the patr. but administered by bishops of Indian origin. The Knanaya archdiocese of the ‘Southist’ endogamous community — with its origins from a Mesopotamian emigration, by tradition dated to 345 — has an archbishop, independent of the Catholicate, with three suffragans, over 70 churches, and a sizeable diaspora in Europe and North America.' Since 1920, churches have been established in India directly under the temporal authority of the patr. and administered by the Patriarchal delegate to Malankara; today these parishes are under a Patriarchal Vicariate called the ‘Simhasana’ (‘Throne’) Churches and Institutions with four bishops including the Patriarchal delegate and about 30 churches. The major monasteries of the Malankara Syriac Orthodox Church at Manjinikkara, Piramadom, and Malekurishu fall under this Vicariate. The Evangelical Association of the East — the missionary arm of the Church, established in 1924 — has three bishops, one of whom presides over the autonomous Honovar St. Antony’s Mission; the Association has about 45 churches, 10 educational institutions, and other charitable organizations. Since 1990, the Seminary of the Church, now headed by a bp., has functioned at Udayagiri where a four-year Bachelor’s degree in Theology is offered. The Church has lay organizations for youth, students, women, and Sunday School. The Church has an active laity-sponsored presence on the internet with a number of general as well as parish websites, discussion groups, radio, and TV sites." https://gedsh.bethmardutho.org/Malankara-Syriac-Orthodox-Church Jude Didimus (talk) 06:59, 17 March 2022 (UTC)

@Jude Didimus: Not sure why you copied long paragraph(s) from source here and cluttering the talk. Quote only necessary lines and give the reference. I have seen this gedsh.bethmardutho source many times. But not understanding what are you trying to convey here?!!! See the website you added in the article: http://www.jacobitesyrianchurch.org/diocese.html . There are 21 dioceses under Jacobite Syrian Christian Church. Among these Malankara Syriac Knanaya Archdiocese and dioceses outside India (1+3=4) are directly administered by Patriarch of Antioch, not by Catholicos of India. That's all. Its already mentioned in the article Jacobite Syrian Christian Church. Same thing is mentioned gedsh.bethmardutho website too. Then what is the need of this POV article?? In case you need to add/delete/modify anything it should be done in Jacobite Syrian Christian Church article. You can not create articles as per your point of view with titles like 'Malankara Syrian Orthodox Church', 'Malankara Syriac Orthodox Church' 'Malankara Jacobite Syrian Church' which are today informal names of Jacobite Syrian Christian Church and copy same content in both. ---John C. (talk) 08:29, 17 March 2022 (UTC)

The problem is that you don't read the article and you are not giving me an ear. The Jacobite Syrian Christian Church, as I have already mentioned, is ecclesiastically the Malankara Archdiocese of the Syriac Orthodox Church in India. The other archdioceses, including the Knanaya, Pontifical and Evangelical, are independent and distinguished from the Jacobite Syrian Christian Church. At the same time, all these comes under Malankara Syrian Orthodox Church. However the MSOC doesn't have a common head other than the Patriarch of Antioch. But its archdioceses are distinguished from the other Archdioceses of the Syriac Orthodox Church. Having a common head is not a prerequisite for having an article in its name. For example, Eastern Orthodox Church doesn't have a common head. But it has an article. Same with Oriental Orthodox Churches. That is what that is clearly written in this article and in the sources provided. Jude Didimus (talk) 08:38, 17 March 2022 (UTC)

For those who are trying to remove the article without reading it: "The Malankara Syrian Orthodox Church, though holding high esteem for the Catholicos of the East (Maphrian), does not have a common administrative structure. It comprises of the various sections, or archdioceses, subject to the supervision of the Patriarch of Antioch. These include the Jacobite Syrian Christian Church, the Knanaya Jacobite Church, the Evangelistic Association of the East and their mutually independent archdioceses in Europe, North America, Australia and the Middle East." Jude Didimus (talk) 08:44, 17 March 2022 (UTC)

@Jude Didimus: From where you copied the lines in bold letters? ---John C. (talk) 08:56, 17 March 2022 (UTC)

The MSOC represents the church which stood under the Syriac Orthodox Patriarchate of Antioch even after 1912. The church that was lead by Athanasius Paulose, Coorilos Paulose Kuchuparambil, Clemis Abraham and Baselios Paulose II. The Church that comprises of the JSCC, Knanaya Archdiocese, North American Archdiocese, Pontifical Churches' Archdiocese, and Evangelical Association Archdiocese. Jude Didimus (talk) 08:57, 17 March 2022 (UTC)

From where should I copy for those who don't read article!! From the article itself. Jude Didimus (talk) 08:58, 17 March 2022 (UTC)

@Jude Didimus: //From where should I copy for those who don't read article!! From the article itself// - That's the problem here - its not from any sources, you are bringing your own lines you recently added in the article, not from any sources!! But check what JSCC website http://www.jacobitesyrianchurch.org/diocese.html says: Knanaya Archdiocese, North American Archdiocese, Pontifical Churches' Diocese, and Evangelical Association Diocese are part of JSCC. ---John C. (talk) 09:14, 17 March 2022 (UTC)

Don't lie, the website doesn't say "Knanaya Archdiocese, North American Archdiocese, Pontifical Churches' Diocese, and Evangelical Association Diocese are part of JSCC." The website only saysthat those are dioceses. It doesn't say that those are JSCC's dioceses. Another website https://syrianorthodoxchurch.org/directories/world/india/ says: "Jacobite Syian Christian Church (Malankara Archdiocese of the Syrian Orthodox Church in India)". That is, the term JSCC has an ambiguity. It is actually the name given to the Malankara Archdiocese India. However it is often used also as an alternative for the term for the Malankara Syrian Orthodox Church.Jude Didimus (talk) 09:26, 17 March 2022 (UTC)

The other source, https://gedsh.bethmardutho.org/Malankara-Syriac-Orthodox-Church , says: The Malankara Syriac Orthodox Church has today 17 dioceses .... Nearly 80 parishes have been established in North America, Europe, the Persian Gulf, Singapore, Australia, and New Zealand. The Cath. of India exercises authority over 15 dioceses as well as institutions under the Malankara Synod which has 17 bishops. Churches of the diaspora outside India are directly under the patr. but administered by bishops of Indian origin. The Knanaya archdiocese of the ‘Southist’ endogamous community — with its origins from a Mesopotamian emigration, by tradition dated to 345 — has an archbishop, independent of the Catholicate, with three suffragans, over 70 churches, and a sizeable diaspora in Europe and North America.' Since 1920, churches have been established in India directly under the temporal authority of the patr. and administered by the Patriarchal delegate to Malankara; today these parishes are under a Patriarchal Vicariate called the ‘Simhasana’ (‘Throne’) Churches and Institutions with four bishops including the Patriarchal delegate and about 30 churches. Jude Didimus (talk) 09:31, 17 March 2022 (UTC)

@Jude Didimus: Ok, will go through the references one by one. Which is this " The Malankara Syriac Orthodox Church ... has today 17 dioceses" mentioned in gedsh.bethmardutho website?? What is the official name of that church? ---John C. (talk) 09:46, 17 March 2022 (UTC)

The '17 dioceses' Malankara Syrian Orthodox belongs to the MSOC. '15 dioceses in India' include Knanaya Archdiocese, Pontifical Archdiocese, Evangelist Archdiocese and those of JSCC. This number has expanded quite a bit. Jude Didimus (talk) 09:55, 17 March 2022 (UTC)

@Jude Didimus: //This number has expanded quite a bit// - This may be correct. But now lets first analyze information in gedsh.bethmardutho website. See the title of the article - you can see "Malankara Syriac Orthodox Church Jacobite Syrian Christian Church" there. That means, both the names are given there. (The terms "Syriac" and "Syrian" are interchangeably used in Church documents/names. Since 2002, the official name of this Church is "Jacobite Syrian Christian Church"). Now read this line - "The Malankara Syriac Orthodox Church has today 17 dioceses and more than 600 churches in India and several educational and medical institutions as well as social service organizations" . So JSCC a.k.a MSOC is having 17 dioceses. Again read - The Cath. of India exercises authority over 15 dioceses as well as institutions under the Malankara Synod which has 17 bishops and Churches of the diaspora outside India are directly under the patr. but administered by bishops of Indian origin. The Knanaya archdiocese of the ‘Southist’ endogamous community — with its origins from a Mesopotamian emigration, by tradition dated to 345 — has an archbishop, independent of the Catholicate, with three suffragans, over 70 churches, and a sizeable diaspora in Europe and North America.. So its very clear that all 17 are part of same Church but Knanaya archdiocese and dioceses outside India are directly under Patriarch. In next paragraph again we can read The Church curiously retains ‘Jacobite’ in its name, even though the Syr. Orth. Church rejects this appellation as pejorative . So all these archdiocese are part of "The Church" (Jacobite Syrian Christian Church) in that a few dioceses/archdioceses are directly administered by Patriarch. ---John C. (talk) 10:30, 17 March 2022 (UTC)

You did not get the point. Jacobite Syrian Christian Church is a very ambiguous term. It can mean very different things. Actually it is an alternative term for the Syriac Orthodox Church as a whole. In that sense, the 'Jacobite Syrian Christian Church' can also be used as an alternative term for Malankara Syrian Orthodox Church. The article in bethmurdutho gives the actual title as Malankara Syriac Orthodox Church. There the term 'Jacobite Syrian Christian Church' is only an alternative usage. That is exactly why it also mentions Knanaya Archdiocese, Pontifical Archdiocese, Evangelist Archdiocese and the Archdioceses in North America etc. as part of the MSOC. The article Jacobite Syrian Christian Church is only about the 'Malankara Archdiocese of the Syriac Orthodox Church in India'. So you have to distinguish the 'Malankara Syrian Orthodox Church' from the 'Malankara Archdiocese of the Syriac Orthodox Church in India'. Jude Didimus (talk) 10:40, 17 March 2022 (UTC)

@Jude Didimus:, @Veverve: Jacobite Syrian Christian Church is a religious denomination split(1912) from Malankara Church, The other being Malankara Orthodox Church. The Syriac Orthodox Church in India is given as term for churches that are part of the community from Malankara. This includes Knanaya Church which is identified as a different community, Malankara Archdiocese of North America, Patriarchal Churches, E.A.E Arch Diocese which are not under the Jacobite Syrian Christian Church but under the Syriac Orthodox Church.

References

Malankara Syriac Orthodox Church is a term for generalizing Jacobite Syrian Christian Church or Syriac Orthodox Church in India (Society or Arch Diocese registered in 2002), Malankara Archdiocese of North America (Formed in 1975), E.A.E Arch Diocese (Formed in 1924), The Hon. Supreme Court of India has ruled out that there is only 1934 constitution which is applicable to the Jacobite Syrian Christian Church & Malankara Orthodox Church while the other Communities are not governed by this/(registered or governed).(Ref: CIVIL APPEAL NO. 3674 OF 2015). Each are Different Organization but They are commonly Called as Malankara Syriac Orthodox Church meaning they are part of the Syriac Orthodox Church who are from Malankara, These communities are there in various parts of the World, But are not governed under the Catholicos of India. So when someone refers the community instead of a diocese it will cause confusion regarding which entity is addressed. I think Syriac Orthodox Church in India should keep on redirecting Jacobite Syrian Christian Church as there is no confusion regarding the same. But for Addressing the communities which are part of the Syriac Orthodox Church this can be implemented to avoid confusions when referring to specific topics on other articles.Malankara Syriac Orthodox Church should address all churches which are also independent of one another. For instance when referring to Catholicos of India, Court Orders with respect to Jacobite Syrian Christian Church are not affected for other organizations inside or outside the country. According to WP:CFORK, A content fork is the creation of multiple separate pieces of content (such as Wikipedia articles or inter-wiki objects) all treating the same subject. Also According to WP:SUBPOVDifferent articles can be legitimately created on subjects which themselves represent points of view, as long as the title clearly indicates what its subject is, the point-of-view subject is presented neutrally, and each article cross-references articles on other appropriate points of view. Here, The article is planned in a way they are not representing the same subject of the church society that came into existence on 1912 or 2002, the other entities/organizations/arch diocese being organized by the members of defunct Malankara Church. There are things that occur from time to time that may be mistaken for content forking. However, There should be separate articles on Society and community.—J.Stalin S ^Talk 18:48, 22 March 2022 (UTC)

What is happening here?

First of all @Johnchacks: I am not an admin. Second, I do not even understand what the discussion is about and I believe no one else pinged does; I think we all would be glad if someone could explain with a bullet presentation what is the matter. Veverve (talk) 11:16, 17 March 2022 (UTC)

Veverve, This article is about the Malankara Syrian Orthodox Church. It is a Saint Thomas Christian denomination and is a part of the Syriac Orthodox Church. At present, it has the following constituent Archdioceses:

• The Malankara Archdiocese of the Syriac Orthodox Church in India (which is known by the name Jacobite Syrian Christian Church since 2002);
• The Malankara Archdiocese of North America;
• The Knanaya Syriac Orthodox Archdiocese;
• The Archdiocese for the Pontifical Churches;
• The Archdiocese of the Evangelist Association of the East.

You must also be aware that the term Jacobite Syrian Christian Church is a very ambiguous term which has been used at times to refer to the Syriac Orthodox Church as a whole and also the Malankara Syrian Orthodox Church.Jude Didimus (talk) 11:55, 17 March 2022 (UTC)

Thank you Veverve for the response. Here is the matter :

• This page (Malankara Syrian Orthodox Church) was a redirect to Jacobite Syrian Christian Church since many years
• Yesterday User:Jude Didimus took out the redirect and added same content of the article Jacobite Syrian Christian Church here without any discussion
• Jacobite Syrian Christian Church was earlier known by the names Malankara Syrian Orthodox Church, Malankara Jacobite Syrian Church etc . In 2002, the Church formed a new constitution and that time onward the Church has been officially known as "Jacobite Syrian Christian Church". Hence in Wikipedia, the official name of the Church "Jacobite Syrian Christian Church" is using as the title of the article. Since the previous names are still informally used in many places/articles those names are used as redirection pages
• "Jacobite Syrian Christian Church" is headed by a Catholicos (with a title Catholicos of India) under the 'Patriarch of Antioch'
• However there are a few Archdioceses comes directly under the control of Patriarch of Antioch. But all available sources are saying they are part of Jacobite Syrian Christian Church. Its an administrative arrangement only. These details were clearly mentioned in the article Jacobite Syrian Christian Church. Unfortunately the User:Jude Didimus has removed when this talk was in progress. Also the same user changed references of JSCC in many articles with MSOC.
• Since there is no church exists by name "Malankara Syrian Orthodox Church", how can a Wikipedia user creates an article as per his point of view? First of all the user should prove such a Church with that official name exists.
• How come the statement //term Jacobite Syrian Christian Church is a very ambiguous term which has been used at times to refer to the Syriac Orthodox Church as a whole and also the Malankara Syrian Orthodox Church// can be true? what is the logic behind that??
• How can we keep both the names "Jacobite Syrian Christian Chruch" and "Malankara Syrian Orthodox Church" in parallel - the first is the official name and second is an informal name of the same Church. This is definitely going to ambiguity among Wikipedia readers.
• In short, the title and the content is just POV of an Wikiuser against the facts ---John C. (talk) 12:39, 17 March 2022 (UTC)

//"the title and the content is just POV of an Wikiuser against the facts"// I would like to say that this comment is more applicable to its speaker.

The institution, Jacobite Syrian Christian Church, is defined as the Malankara Archdiocese of the Syriac Orthodox Church in India since 2002. The Malankara Syrian Orthodox Church is an institution that has existed since 1665 and it constitutes the other archdioceses above mentioned that does not come under the 'Malankara Archdiocese of the Syriac Orthodox Church in India'.

• One can compare this case to Greek Orthodox Church which is a term used to refer to a number of autocephalous Eastern Orthodox Churches
• The term Jacobite, Syrian, Christian, Church etc. are used in different permutations and combinations to refer to various institutions such as the Syriac Orthodox Church, Malankara Syrian Orthodox Church, Malankara Archdiocese of the Syriac Orthodox Church in India etc. Therefore one must distinguish between the Malankara Syrian Orthodox Church and the Malankara Archdiocese of the Syriac Orthodox Church in India. Jude Didimus (talk) 13:14, 17 March 2022 (UTC)

The case of Greek Orthodox Church-Eastern Orthodox Churches is not a right example here for many reasons, first, there are evidences that Greek Orthodox Church exists. But where are the evidences for "Malankara Syrian Orthodox Church" exists today as a separate entity? Its nothing but an informal name of Jacobite Syrian Christian Church. If it is a separate entity, why are you duplicating same info in both articles - like website, other names of the Church, Catholicos etc? About your argument, there are many permutations and combinations of the terms Jacobite, Syrian, Malankara, Orthodox etc. exists among Indian/Syriac Churches - we can not do anything to resolve that, we have to use the official names of the Churches as they are. But what you are doing here is adding up more ambiguities/confusions by creating a new article with the informal name of JSCC....Now I wait for admins/other users intervention. ---John C. (talk) 14:05, 17 March 2022 (UTC)

The 'Jacobite Syrian Christian Church' is defined as the 'Malankara Archdiocese of the Syriac Orthodox Church in India'. The 'Malankara Syrian Orthodox Church' is not an alternative term of the 'Malankara Archdiocese of the Syriac Orthodox Church in India'. It is a denomination which has more Archdioceses and structure throughout the world. One can easily understand what I am saying if they are not preoccupied with a POV. I stand firm in my comparison of this case with the Ecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople - Greek Orthodox Church - Eastern Orthodox Church arrangement. Jude Didimus (talk) 15:07, 17 March 2022 (UTC)

@Jude Didimus and Johnchacks:

Here is my opinion:

• Formal

• if indeed Yesterday User:Jude Didimus took out the redirect and added same content of the article Jacobite Syrian Christian Church here without any discussion and Johnchacks opposed the changes recently with arguments - which Johnchacks did - then a WP:BRD should take place; there is a problem of consensus, so the situation should be back to WP:QUO. As a sidenote, there is likely a problem of attribution as I see no Template:Copied here.
• Jude Didimus, you have also reverted @Pbritti:'s redirect without giving any justification
• my opinion counts toward the WP:consensus, meaning that me and Johnchacks have the majority (restoring the article as it was) against Jude Didimus' opinion.

---> In any case, the page should be moved back to its original disposition, before the page changes made by Jude Didimus

---> An admin should be contacted to come and have a look at the technical side of things, although I am not sure it is necessary

• Editing

After the restoration, further discussions as to what to do with this redirect can take place here or at the WP:RFD board. If possible, I would like not to be included thrown into those discussions as was the case here, as this topic is 1) of no interest to me, 2) the theatre of endless edition debates. Veverve (talk) 16:00, 17 March 2022 (UTC)

@Veverve: The third opinion has not explained why a denomination(MSOC) must be redirected to an Archdiocese(JSCC). Furthermore, the comment //if indeed Yesterday User:Jude Didimus took out the redirect and added same content of the article Jacobite Syrian Christian Church here without any discussion// is wrong. I haven't copied any content from the article Jacobite Syrian Christian Church. Johnchacks has failed to prove this allegation.Jude Didimus (talk) 16:56, 17 March 2022 (UTC)

I have requested User:Mugsalot and User:Certes to intervene in the dispute. I hope they will also give their opinion.Jude Didimus (talk) 05:30, 18 March 2022 (UTC)

@Veverve, Whether the user copied from the article Jacobite Syrian Christian Church is a less important thing, initially both articles looked same, but it need to be confirmed by the edit history of both the articles. Here the primary question is "Is there a denomination exists by name Malankara Syrian Orthodox Church?" I can easily prove that denomination name is JSCC and there is no denomination exists by name MSOC. But I wait for admins and more users intervention here. Meanwhile I am seeing User:Jude Didimus has added some other debatable points also into the article. Let me clarify with Jude on those points in below section.---John C. (talk) 05:34, 18 March 2022 (UTC)

@Johnchacks: don't mix up facts and present it in the way you wish. Jacobite Syrian Christian Church is defined as the Malankara Archdiocese of the Syriac Orthodox Church in India as per all official sources of the Syriac Orthodox Church. The denomination is Malankara i.e, Malankara Syrian Orthodox Church. Jude Didimus (talk) 05:54, 18 March 2022 (UTC)

As I said earlier I wait for admins and more users to join in this discussion for a simple reason I do not want to repeat my points again and again. ---John C. (talk) 06:23, 18 March 2022 (UTC)

Sorry, but I don't know the topic well enough to help. I simply fixed a typo. Certes (talk) 12:34, 18 March 2022 (UTC)

Just have a look at this website

It says:

• PRELATES OF THE MALANKARA SYRIAN ORTHODOX CHURCH
  • [a] PRELATES OF THE JACOBITE SYRIAN CHRISTIAN CHURCH OF INDIA
  • [b] METROPOLITANS OF THE PATRIARCHAL INSTITUTIONS/CHURCHES
  • [c] METROPOLITANS OF THE KNANAYA ARCHDIOCESE
  • [d] METROPOLITANS OF THE EVANGELISTIC ASSOCIATION OF THE EAST & THE HONAVOR MISSION
  • [e] RESIDENT METROPOLITAN OF THE M.S.O.T. SEMINARY, UDAYAGIRI & THE EUROPE DIOCESE
  • [f] PATRIARCHAL SECRETARY FOR INDIAN AFFAIRS
  • [g] MALANKARA ARCHDIOCESE OF NORTH AMERICA

From here it is quite clear that the Jacobite Syrian Christian Church is a subdivision of the Malankara Syrian Orthodox Church.Jude Didimus (talk) 12:54, 18 March 2022 (UTC)

Yes, I had a look on this website, but its not an official website. You can see in each page of this website a disclaimer that This is NOT an official website of the Syriac Orthodox Church. That means there is no authorized organization/person to take the responsibility of the content in that website. The website added in the infobox of this article (http://www.jacobitesyrianchurch.org) is also NOT an official website of any Church. But we have the official news portal of JSCC : http://www.jscnews.org/. Here in the page : http://www.jscnews.org/pages/page.php?content_id=33 - one can read the official information about JSCC, I am quoting last paragraph below  :
Besides this, there are other churches/associations, independent of each other, that came into existence in the last century, established on the desire of the laity and are under the direct jurisdiction of the Patriarch. They are the Simhasana (Thronal) Churches, the St. Antony's congregation and Honawar Mission based at Mangalore (founded by Mor Julius Alwarez), the Evangelical Association of the East ('Pourasthya Suvisesha Samagam') and the Syrian Orthodox Archdiocese of Greater India (comprising of Outside Kerala dioceses-in India). All of these are administered by Metropolitans appointed by the Patriarch of Antioch. Also there is a Knanaya diocese that was established in early 20th century for the migrant Knanaites and is under the administration of a Metropolitan. All of the above dioceses have their own associations and decisions pertaining them are taken by themselves and with the approval of the Patriarch of Antioch..
What does that mean? all theses archdioceses are part of JSCC, but a few are under direct administration of Patriarch. ---John C. (talk) 14:24, 18 March 2022 (UTC)

//all theses archdioceses are part of JSCC, but a few are under direct administration of Patriarch// where does it say so?? @Johnchacks: don't manipulate the sources.

An official website of the Syriac Orthodox Church [1] says:

"Jacobite Syian Christian Church (Malankara Archdiocese of the Syrian Orthodox Church in India)"

In short your comment above is contradictory and illogical. How can a number of Malankara Archdioceses be under another Archdiocese (JSCC)!! Moreover, the website from which you have quoted dies not support your claim in the name of it. Meanwhile, the website syriacchristianity is Malankara Syrian Orthodox oriented website and it is certainly a reliable source in the matter. Jude Didimus (talk) 14:47, 18 March 2022 (UTC)

The official website above mentioned has the following content in this page

It says:

• India
  • Jacobite Syian Christian Church (Malankara Archdiocese of the Syrian Orthodox Church in India)
    • Catholicos Aboon Mor Baselios Thomas I Patriarchal Centre:...
  • Metropolitans of the Evangelsitic Assoc. of The East & The Hanavor Mission...
  • Metropolitans of the Knanaya Archdiocese....
  • Metropolitans of the Simhasana (Pontifical) Churches/Monasteries in India...
  • Resident Metropolitan of The M.S.O.T Seminary at Udayagiri & The Europe Archdiocese Mor Theophilos Kuriakose Malankara Syrian Orthodox Theological Seminary,..

[~https://syrianorthodoxchurch.org/directories/world/america/ another page] says:

• Malankara Archdiocese of North America Mor Theethos Yeldho

From this it is very clear that the other Malankara Archdioceses are not a part of the "Jacobite Syian Christian Church (Malankara Archdiocese of the Syrian Orthodox Church in India)"

Jude Didimus (talk) 15:33, 18 March 2022 (UTC)

The official website of the Malankara Archdiocese of North America has a link to syriacchristianity.org. Hence it is a reliable website of the Syriac Orthodox Church. Jude Didimus (talk) 15:48, 18 March 2022 (UTC)

I am holding my responses and counter queries till some other users joining here. ---John C. (talk) 15:56, 18 March 2022 (UTC)

Debatable/Disputable Points

@Jude Didimus: Point#1 - You mentioned in the article that this Church (whether you call it as MSOC or JSCC) is separated from Church of the East. Where is the evidence for that? Agree that you included a reference - "Encyclopaedia of sects & religious doctrines, Volume 4 By Charles George Herbermann page 1180,1181". But which are the lines/remarks you have used from that reference for supporting this statement? Please quote those lines/remarks here? Point#2 - You mentioned in the article that founder of this Church (whether you call it as MSOC or JSCC) is Thoma I & Gregorios Abdul Jaleel . With that same logic, who is the founder of Syro-Malabar Church, another denomination among the Saint Thomas Christians? ---John C. (talk) 05:35, 18 March 2022 (UTC)

@Johnchacks:

1. There are enough and more evidences to show that "it separated from Church of the East and its founders are Thoma I & Gregorios Abdul Jaleel". bethmurdutho has a number of other articles on the same topic.

On the second topic- //With that same logic, who is the founder of Syro-Malabar Church, another denomination among the Saint Thomas Christians?// - my opinion remains the same. That church was also separated from the Church of the East and it is clearly mentioned in its article. With regard to the founding date, it is difficult to decide but in my opinion the founder is Joseph Sulaqa, the first Chaldean Rite Catholic bishop of the Malabar Christians. Every church in Malankara claims to be established by Saint Thomas. I think we need a separate discussion for this topic.

Jude Didimus (talk) 05:49, 18 March 2022 (UTC)

@Jude Didimus: bethmurdutho is not a final word to decide this. It gives a Syriac Church view, probably east-syriac/Chaldean view. There are many other independent sources also available. We will go through all available docs. But first we need to examine remarks in the reference you already provided. That is why I am asking you to present the lines/remarks you have taken from the "Encyclopaedia of sects & religious doctrines, Volume 4 By Charles George Herbermann page 1180,1181". On the second point, if the founder of Syro-Malabar Church is Joseph Sulaqa, change it in that article also. What is the difficulty you are facing to decide that? I am seeing Apostle St.Thomas as the founder there. This is the right place to discuss that, we will point this discussion in other article talk pages or edit summaries, or you can start a discussion in another place and invite me there. We need to replace these "claims" with "fact" in all articles at once. ---John C. (talk) 06:19, 18 March 2022 (UTC)

I haven't said that bethmurdutho is the final word, did I? No. There are a large number of sources but this one is an online version so easily accessible.

//"if the founder of Syro-Malabar Church is Joseph Sulaqa, change it in that article also."// I am not sure about this and you must not command me what to do and what not to. I wait for sources on that statement and once I get it, I will update both the SMC and Malankara Orthodox Syrian Church.Jude Didimus (talk)

@Jude Didimus:, Still you have not shared the lines/remarks you have taken from the "Encyclopaedia of sects & religious doctrines, Volume 4 By Charles George Herbermann page 1180,1181". for supporting your edit. I am curiously waiting for that. - --John C. (talk) 06:40, 18 March 2022 (UTC)

What do you mean by lines/remarks? The entire article titled 'St. Thomas Christians' says that the community as a whole was part of the Church of the East. Then what is the point you are making by asking about the MSOC in particular? Jude Didimus (talk) 07:41, 18 March 2022 (UTC)

@Jude Didimus:, I am not asking about any Church in particular. I am asking about the whole 'St. Thomas Christians' community only. There are different views about the relationship between St. Thomas Christians and Persin Church (CoE), thats why I am asking which are the lines in that article says that St. Thomas Christians community was "part" of the Church of the East. The article is not fully accessible. But if you share a few lines related to this topic from that article, others can also understand that. ---John C. (talk) 08:12, 18 March 2022 (UTC)

Almost all reliable sources say that it was a hierarchical relationship. See Istvan Perczel's 'Syriac Christianity in India'. It is one of the latest scholarly research. Jude Didimus (talk) 08:14, 18 March 2022 (UTC)

Also Wilmshurst's Ecclesiastical organization of the Church of the East. https://books.google.com/books?id=jB8ir0ek8bgC Jude Didimus (talk) 08:16, 18 March 2022 (UTC)

Deletion

This page should be blanked and reverted to a redirect. The citations here suggest only that this church is the same as it formerly redirected to. ~ Pbritti (talk) 04:25, 19 March 2022 (UTC)

@Pbritti: Have you read all those citations and have you read the http://www.syriacchristianity.info/bio/MalankaraPrelates/MalankaraBishops.htm and https://syrianorthodoxchurch.org/directories/world/india/ page linked in the above section? If you all think that this article must be deleted, I don't have any problem in it. However, these points must be addressed:

• What will we do about the church that existed between 1912 and 2002. 2002 is when JSCC was formed. Also what will we do about the Knanaya Malankara Archdiocese and the other archdioceses which are not part of the JSCC? Jude Didimus (talk) 05:13, 19 March 2022 (UTC)

@User:Pbritti, Thank you for joining in this talk and giving your opinion. I totally agree with what you said - The page should be blanked and reverted to the former redirect. The arguments raised by User:Jude Didimus like JSCC was formed in 2002 are not seem to be valid points to create another article. Those are POVs of the user. It is the same Church existed between 1912 and 2002. In 2002, there were changes happened like adoption of a new name (JSCC), new constitution and probably some administration changes too. If the user had any concern about the Archdioceses which are now outside the Catholicate and under the direct administration of Patriarch, it should have raised it in the talk page of the article Jacobite Syrian Christian Church, before creating another article. However, still I am fine to discuss in latest talk section Talk:Malankara Syrian Orthodox Church#The need for separate Malankara Syrian Orthodox Church explained initiated by User:Jude. Since new users are joining to this talk, I would like to wait for a day or two, otherwise they won't understand anything from a long discussion thread which is in progress. ---John C. (talk) 06:50, 19 March 2022 (UTC)

@Johnchacks: Thank you for synthesizing my perspectives on the matter succinctly. I agree that it should be blanked, but believe we may have reached something of an impasse because this talk page is far too cluttered. Is there any other way all parties can hash this out? ~ Pbritti (talk) 15:52, 20 March 2022 (UTC)

@Pbritti, I think there is no other way... we need to continue the discussion in the latest subsection of this talk page and see how we can sort it out, I will add my opinion there in a day ... - --John C. (talk) 15:17, 21 March 2022 (UTC)

Speedy Deletion

I have read through the content of this page and I am uncertain as to why it exists.

The West Syriac (Syriac Orthodox) Nasrani or St. Thomas Christians were historically apart of the Malankara Church:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malankara_Church

The Malankara Church later divided into two sections:

The Malankara Indian Orthodox Church: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malankara_Orthodox_Syrian_Church

The Jacobite Syrian Orthodox Church: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacobite_Syrian_Christian_Church

This page seems to be a duplicate for the Jacobite Syrian Church. For that reason I do not know why it exists and I recommend speedy deletion. There are again only two divisions (Jacobite Syrian Church and Malankara Orthodox Church) which split from the parent (Malankara Church). All three of these already have Wikipedia articles. For this reason I again recommend speedy deletion.

@Thomast48: Have you read all those citations and have you read the http://www.syriacchristianity.info/bio/MalankaraPrelates/MalankaraBishops.htm and https://syrianorthodoxchurch.org/directories/world/india/ pages linked in the above section? If you all think that this article must be deleted, I don't have any problem in it. However, these points must be addressed:

• What will we do about the church that existed between 1912 and 2002. 2002 is when JSCC was formed. Also what will we do about the Knanaya Malankara Archdiocese and the other archdioceses which are not part of the JSCC?Jude Didimus (talk) 05:14, 19 March 2022 (UTC)

@User:Thomast48, Thank you for joining in this discussion and sharing your views. I am also uncertain why this article exists/created. If User:Jude Didimus had any concern on the Archdioceses outside the Catholicate which are under direct administration of Patriarch, the user should have raised that in the talk page of Jacobite Syrian Christian Church. There might be simple straightforward ways to address that. We all could have take part in that discussion. Creating another article for this reason is not justifiable, that too using the informal/earlier name of JSCC. Yes, This article should be deleted at the earliest. However, I am still okay to discuss in latest talk section Talk:Malankara Syrian Orthodox Church#The need for separate Malankara Syrian Orthodox Church explained initiated by User:Jude. Since new users are joining to this talk, I would like to wait for a day or two, otherwise they won't understand anything from a long discussion thread which is in progress. ---John C. (talk) 08:37, 19 March 2022 (UTC)

The need for separate Malankara Syrian Orthodox Church explained

Just have a look at this website (The official website of the Malankara Archdiocese of North America has a link to syriacchristianity.org. Hence it is a reliable website of the Syriac Orthodox Church.) It says:

• PRELATES OF THE MALANKARA SYRIAN ORTHODOX CHURCH
  • [a] PRELATES OF THE JACOBITE SYRIAN CHRISTIAN CHURCH OF INDIA
  • [b] METROPOLITANS OF THE PATRIARCHAL INSTITUTIONS/CHURCHES
  • [c] METROPOLITANS OF THE KNANAYA ARCHDIOCESE
  • [d] METROPOLITANS OF THE EVANGELISTIC ASSOCIATION OF THE EAST & THE HONAVOR MISSION
  • [e] RESIDENT METROPOLITAN OF THE M.S.O.T. SEMINARY, UDAYAGIRI & THE EUROPE DIOCESE
  • [f] PATRIARCHAL SECRETARY FOR INDIAN AFFAIRS
  • [g] MALANKARA ARCHDIOCESE OF NORTH AMERICA

From here it is quite clear that the Jacobite Syrian Christian Church is a subdivision of the Malankara Syrian Orthodox Church.

The official website of the Syriac Orthodox Church has the following content in this page It says:

• India
  • Jacobite Syian Christian Church (Malankara Archdiocese of the Syrian Orthodox Church in India)
    • Catholicos Aboon Mor Baselios Thomas I Patriarchal Centre:...
  • Metropolitans of the Evangelsitic Assoc. of The East & The Hanavor Mission...
  • Metropolitans of the Knanaya Archdiocese....
  • Metropolitans of the Simhasana (Pontifical) Churches/Monasteries in India...
  • Resident Metropolitan of The M.S.O.T Seminary at Udayagiri & The Europe Archdiocese Mor Theophilos Kuriakose Malankara Syrian Orthodox Theological Seminary,..

[~https://syrianorthodoxchurch.org/directories/world/america/ another page] says:

• Malankara Archdiocese of North America Mor Theethos Yeldho

From this it is very clear that the other Malankara Archdioceses are not a part of the "Jacobite Syian Christian Church (Malankara Archdiocese of the Syrian Orthodox Church in India)"

Therefore there's a need for an inclusive article for the JSCC, Knanaya Archdiocese, and other archdioceses. We also need an article that spans the history of the church prior to 2002 and 1912. In my opinion, the article "Malankara Syrian Orthodox Church" fulfills both these requirements. Jude Didimus (talk) 05:44, 19 March 2022 (UTC)

what's your opinion @Pbritti: Jude Didimus (talk) 01:39, 20 March 2022 (UTC)

@Jude Didimus:

• Below are the various denominations evolved from Saint Thomas Christians community
  • Syro-Malabar Church
  • Malankara Orthodox Syrian Church
  • Jacobite Syrian Christian Church
  • Marthoma Syrian Church
  • Syro-Malankara Catholic Church
  • Malabar Independent Syrian Church
  • Chaldean Syrian Church
  • Saint Thomas Evangelical Church

Today there is no denomination exists with an official name Malankara Syrian Orthodox Church (MSOC) (Don't get confused with Malankara Orthodox Syrian Church - Its a different Church).
Earlier Jacobite Syrian Christian Church was referred as Malankara Syrian Orthodox Church.

There is only one autonomous Church exists within the Syriac Orthodox Church - it is "Jacobite Syrian Christian Church" (JSCC). Your question //What will we do about the church that existed between 1912 and 2002. 2002 is when JSCC was formed// is not valid. It is the same Church existed between 1912 and 2002 which can traces its ultimate origins to early centuries like any other Church in Saint Thomas Christian Community. Before the year 2002, the JSCC was known in different names like "Malankara Syrian Orthodox Church", "Malankara Jacobite Syrian Orthodox Church". In 2002, there were changes happened like adoption of a new name (JSCC), new constitution etc...probably some administration/jurisdiction/title changes too. What is the need of creating separate articles for each milestone of a Church??

Agree on that point that some dioceses/archdioceses which were earlier under the Catholicate of JSCC are now Autonomous Dioceses/Archdioceses. Also agree that JSCC is also declared as another Autonomous Archdioceses. But unlike other Autonomous Archdioceses, JSCC is an Autonomous Church within the Syriac Orthodox Church.

We can not create an article just because there is a heading/reference "Malankara Syrian Orthodox Church" in the unofficial website syriacchristianity.info . First, you need to prove that there is a Church/Denomination by name MSOC exists within Syriac Orthodox Church based on the official records of SOC or JSCC. I am sure you can not even find a newspaper reference for the title MSOC.

@Pbritti: @Veverve: @Thomast48: - In summary, my opinion :
The article Jacobite Syrian Christian Church should contain complete history of the Church which referred as MSOC/MJSOC/JSCC in different timelines. The title "Malankara Syrian Orthodox Church" to be kept back as the redirect to the article "Jacobite Syrian Christian Church". There is no need of creating separate articles to include the history of Church in different timelines as User:Jude mentioned above.

Coming back to the second concern/question of User:Jude - Inclusion of the Autonomous Dioceses/ Archdioceses which are under the direct jurisdiction of the Patriarch. Answer is simple : If someone think it should not be in the article "Jacobite Syrian Christian Church", then of course it should be in the article "Syriac Orthodox Church". But for this, ideally a discussion need to be initiated in Talk:Jacobite Syrian Christian Church and reach a consensus. - --John C. (talk) 17:10, 22 March 2022 (UTC)

Agree on creation of Malankara Syriac Orthodox Church as the (JSCC) or (Malankara Archdiocese of the Syrian Orthodox Church in India) is a name of Society and should mention details of history, formation and current status of the society on that page.
whereas Malankara Syriac Orthodox Church is collectively called for denomination/churches/diocese of Syriac Orthodox Church where the people are called as Jacobites or Jacobite Syrian Church which is another name for Syriac Orthodox Church but this is different from the Society or Organization created by the community from Malankara Church after Schism and independent from other entities which are established before 2002. J.Stalin S ^Talk 19:03, 22 March 2022 (UTC)

Full concurrence with Johnchacks. I do think the discussion of the somewhat jurisdictionally challenging ecclesiastical territories should received further discussion, but I am presently not equipped to provide good information. ~ Pbritti (talk) 19:39, 22 March 2022 (UTC)