Talk:Mali Empire

Gold refining in medieval Mali

They used cupellation, which present-day chemists still use for fire assay. Here's a write-up of how archaeologists reconstructed their metallurgical technique: https://www.atlasobscura.com/articles/medieval-african-gold

I'll digest it & add something to the article in due time. --Pete Tillman (talk) 16:17, 30 June 2020 (UTC)

From cupellation: "Small-scale cupellation may be considered the most important fire assay developed in history, and perhaps the origin of chemical analysis". Whoa! --Pete Tillman (talk) 16:20, 30 June 2020 (UTC)

Identity of the capital

As far as I can tell, the location and name of the capital of the Mali Empire is not agreed upon. Some recent sources appear to be of the opinion that Niani definitively was not the capital of Mali, except possibly briefly long after its glory days. In my opinion it would be prudent to have a section of this article that discusses the debate over the identity of the capital(s) of the Mali Empire. Ornithopsis (talk) 20:44, 17 July 2020 (UTC)

Hey, I've found the same thing, and some similar problems with citing Kangaba as the original home of the Keita dynasty. I've been looking at these articles: https://www.jstor.org/stable/3172058 and https://www.jstor.org/stable/182640 . I think having a section talking about the capital would be a good idea. But I really don't know what to do with all the various references to Niani and Kangaba scattered around this page and others like it. Open to suggestions and ideas. Catjacket (talk) 14:38, 2 February 2021

Where appropriate, I think it would be a good idea to replace "Niani" with "the capital" if the context in the source justifies it. I think that adding a section that clarifies the situation with the capital is a good idea even if we can't clear out every stray reference to Niani, though—best not to let the perfect be the enemy of the good. I'm reluctant to write the section myself because history is not my main area of knowledge and I am not familiar with the original evidence that led to the hypothesis that Niani was the capital, but I can give it a shot if need be. On a tangentially related note, I think the article needs some cleanup so that the history of the empire is all under a single top-level section like other articles, rather than a separate top-level section for nearly every paragraph. Ornithopsis (talk) 04:57, 9 February 2021 (UTC)

Good idea. I'm happy to write the section - I read those papers I referred to above, and will do some more research to round it out. I can do the cleanup of the layout too, but go for it if you'd rather. Catjacket (talk) 09:01, 11 February 2021 (UTC)

I'll clean up the layout the best I can; feel free to modify it if you disagree with my decisions. I think the section on the location of the capital should go in the "Geography" section, once I add that heading. A couple of other papers relevant to the capital issue I've encountered: [1] [2]. Ornithopsis (talk) 23:26, 12 February 2021 (UTC)

I'm having trouble accessing online versions of those two articles you shared. Do you have access through an institution? Catjacket (talk) 22:12, 17 February 2021 (UTC)

I don't have institutional access but I managed to acquire copies with some help. Haour 2005 only mentions the issue of the capital of Mali tangentially—it doesn't offer a lot of information on the question not also in Conrad 1994. Fauvelle 2018 offered more information, but I just found another article by Fauvelle that looks like it contains the most important parts mentioned in Fauvelle 2018 and then some: [3]. I haven't read it yet but based on the title and abstract this looks extremely useful to us. Ornithopsis (talk) 18:16, 18 February 2021 (UTC)

Pleasure working with you, my friend. Catjacket (talk) 19:50, 24 February 2021 (UTC)

Thank you, that looks great! Ornithopsis (talk) 04:53, 25 February 2021 (UTC)

Demography?

I know this "empire" didn't keep record of its demography, but it would be great to have some sourced estimate. All this page tells us right now is that this "empire" comprised a capital city + 400 villages... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.119.104.223 (talk) 08:30, 21 October 2020 (UTC)

I would rather compare West Africa to Southeast Asia, both areas where the population remained low until the 20th century due to a hostile enviroment. According to Thai historians Chris Baker and Pasuk Phongpaichit, Southeast Asia's density was a fifth of that of India and China's until the modern period. Ayutthaya had a population of 1-2.5 million in it's heyday in the 1700s. Taungoo and Konbaung Burma had a similar population number. Vietnam and the Philippines, two countries with similar growth rates to African countries (Egypt, Nigeria, Ethiopia) each had a population of around 10 million in 1900. Ilffie, whose book "Africans: The History of a Continent" is an r/askhistorians recommended book, argues that most historians don't know the exact population of pre-modern West Africa. I would probably agree with removing Mali from here.

Usually, when empires don't do the numbers, or if their records don't survive, historians use accounts of foreign travelers to guess this (which occurred with Ayutthaya), as well as simulating population numbers. Yourlocallordandsavior (talk) 06:45, 15 February 2023 (UTC)

It was an Empire. Not an "Empire". Cheikh Khadim Rassoul D. (talk) 14:27, 14 June 2023 (UTC)

-applause emoji- Catjacket (talk) 23:59, 4 July 2023 (UTC)

Constitutional monarchy

I don't know Mali's history but "constitutional monarchy" seems VERY unlikely to me Braganza (talk) 17:11, 16 December 2020 (UTC)

Reorganization and suggestion of new sections

I reorganized the page to better match the format used in Featured Articles on medieval states. I have neither the time nor expertise to do a great job on any of these on my own, but I think there are several sections that could be added, and I've noted locations I think sections should be added with comments in the article. The Culture section needs expansion in particular—at minimum there should be subsections on religion and jeliw, I think. I think there could also be a section on the legacy of the Mali Empire at the end, as exists for several other articles on notable civilizations (e.g. Byzantine Empire). Ornithopsis (talk) 02:03, 14 February 2021 (UTC)

I just did some reorganization, particularly in the early history part, but also in economy and government to try and streamline the categories and whatnot, make the table of contents more sensible, and generally clean up repetitive or clumsy phrasing. I moved a lot of the early history to the dedicated Pre-Imperial Mali page, since if we have it may as well use it and avoid cluttering the main page with detail that can remain accessible elsewhere. Open to feedback and happy to make adjustments as necessary. Catjacket (talk) 23:57, 4 July 2023 (UTC)

Manuscript section please

I think that a section about the manuscripts should be added in the main article and the stuff about them should be moved there. 68.37.205.126 (talk) 12:45, 4 June 2021 (UTC)

Do you mean that you think that there should be a section of the article that talks about the sources for the history of the Mali Empire such as al-Umari, Ibn Khaldun, Ibn Battuta, and the Tarikhs? Ornithopsis (talk) 19:18, 6 June 2021 (UTC)

Manden Kurufaba

I have removed the references to the empire being called Manden Kurufaba, as I suspect we may be dealing with a case of wikiality. This topic was previously brought up on the talk page all the way back in 2013, but satisfactory evidence was not given to support the term. The page was edited to call it Manden Kurufa in 2007 [4] and Manden Kurufaba in 2012 [5]. The cited source for the term (Piga 2003) does not actually use it, though it does contain the word "kurufaba" as a translation of "confederation":

Ainsi l'empire ou la confédération (kurufaba) peut-il apparaître comme une forme agrandie du village ou du canton (kafo lè) et réciproquement le village ou le canton comme un petit État.

Il importe de constater en revanche que citte idée se retrouve dans l'oeuvure historique de Souleymane Kanté consacreée aux empires de Sosso et du Mali sous la forme de l'opposition déjà évoquée entre la confédération (kurufaba) et le canton (kafo lé).

I can't read French, so I'm not even sure if these statements are specifically about the Mali Empire or are more generally referring to the concept of confederations, but it's clear that at most they indicate that the Mali Empire was called a kurufaba. This is not enough to indicate its official name was Manden Kurufaba. For an analogy, the United States of America is a republic and a federation, but its name is not the Republic of America or American Federation. There are virtually no results on Google or Google Scholar for either term prior to their addition to Wikipedia; pretty much every Google Scholar result for the term turns up text similar to Piga 2003, which do not support the name of the empire being Manden Kurufaba. One [6] suggests that the term "kurufaba" may be a neologism devised by Solomana Kante. Suffice to say, there is inadequate evidence for the term Manden Kurufaba, and I think the term should be removed until a source that satisfactorily demonstrates its validity (and that can be trusted to not be just quoting Wikipedia) can be found. Ornithopsis (talk) 06:41, 7 October 2021 (UTC)

Unsourced flag

I've removed the "flag" in the infobox for now, as there are no sources included in either this article or at the image's description page to support the claim that this is the flag of Mansa Musa or the Mali Empire. Unlike modern national flags, there is no obvious reference to consult on the flags of historical states centuries ago, so clear and reliable sources should be included to verify that any such flag is actually real. The closest I could find to a source were a couple of books ([7], [8]) that mention Mansa Musa's flag as "yellow with a red background", but that provides practically nothing to go on, as there's no indication of what pattern it would have.

From what I've seen in other articles so far, there is a lot of WP:OR on Wikipedia when it comes to "flags" of historical states. There is very little restriction on what users can upload to Wiki Commons and many users just upload their own personal creations, so please do not take any claims or labels in Wiki Commons at face value. Unlike Commons, content on Wikipedia must be verifiable, and that includes any claims about historical flags. R Prazeres (talk) 05:55, 24 April 2023 (UTC)

The official flag or banner of the Mali Empire was probably just plain red; Al-Umari notes that Mansa Musa brought red banners with yellow symbols on it, sometimes translated to “yellow banners with a red background”, which brings to the misconception that the flag was actually a red flag with a yellow square. (1 / 4) Cheikh Khadim Rassoul D. (talk) 15:33, 25 February 2024 (UTC)

However, reading Ibn Khaldūn's account, we only hear testimony about red banners without the yellow symbols — this plain red flag was noted both in a ceremony he described, and inside the court. (2 / 4) Cheikh Khadim Rassoul D. (talk) 15:33, 25 February 2024 (UTC)

It's disputed whether it could've been really seen as an official flag or similar, however it might be also a plausible conclusion to note that adopting a banner was among the things Mali got from the Muslim world, choosing a red one in particular, sometimes putting yellow symbols on it. ( 3 / 4 ) Cheikh Khadim Rassoul D. (talk) 15:33, 25 February 2024 (UTC)

SOURCE 1: Gomez, M. A. (2019). African Dominion: A New History of Empire in Early and Medieval West Africa. United Kingdom: Princeton University Press. — p. 115 Cheikh Khadim Rassoul D. (talk) 15:37, 25 February 2024 (UTC)

SOURCE 2: A History of Islam in West Africa - John Spencer Trimingham, University of Glasgow, 1970 — p. 79/80 Cheikh Khadim Rassoul D. (talk) 15:37, 25 February 2024 (UTC)

SOURCE 3: Hamdun, S., King, N. Q. (1975). Ibn Battuta in Black Africa. London: Collings. — p. 50

OR you can check my tweet with all references screenshotted here: https://twitter.com/CKRD11/status/1761766390795497825?t=afExtTp5l_9mCdR3hT885w&s=19

(4 / 4) Cheikh Khadim Rassoul D. (talk) 15:38, 25 February 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for the research, but from what I'm reading, this amounts to WP:OR (original research), which is not admissible on Wikipedia. We clearly don't have complete information to reconstitute the flag in full detail and with certainty, therefore Wikipedia should not be introducing hypothetical flags that can't be directly found in reliable sources. Many pre-modern states had no "official" flag, which is a modern concept, and that's likely true here (as you more or less noted above).

Information on what type of banners were used and on what flags may have looked like can still be added in the body of the article, so long as it's clearly supported by citations, as always. R Prazeres (talk) 18:19, 25 February 2024 (UTC)

As pointed out by J.S Trimingham, Mali could've got influenced by other arabo-muslim states such as the mamluks and made it's own version of a banner. We see it described by Al-Umari as the main colours of the banners & by Ibn Battuta (NOT Khaldun, my bad). Analyzing it's uses we see it mentioned in the context of the royal flag brought in an expedition (the Hajj), as the flag brought with the sultan in a ceremony (as said by Ibn Battuta) and flag of the court, literally inside the court.

Fundamentally, we can come to the logic conclusion that Mali, seeing other muslim kingdoms wave banners, decided to make one for their own, and so they adopted this plain red banner. Both Gomez & Trimingham basically concluded that Mali's flag was fundamentally just red, and it doesn't require an academic book to reconstruct a flag said to be, fundamentally red.

Either way, we can imply that the red banner was the main symbol of the empire, similar to the other banners of the same period, and thus it can be an important piece of information for people to read. Maybe not necessarily calling it the official flag but at least the imperial banner, or at least "banner used by the Royalty as cited by Al-Umari and Ibn Battuta"

In conclusion, I may ask you to re-instate my edit, as I find it informative and correcting the common misconception, propagated by strategic games, that Mali's symbol/banner was red with a yellow square, thank you. Cheikh Khadim Rassoul D. (talk) 21:37, 25 February 2024 (UTC)

Your explanation only makes it clearer that this is WP:OR. If the flag is not found in reliable sources, then it doesn't belong on Wikipedia. It is not up to editors to "imply" or "come to the logic conclusion" based on clues in other sources. This is a core content policy of Wikipedia and it cannot be disregarded, so please review it. The original red-with-yellow-square flag has already been removed, and the only way to prevent further errors and misconceptions is precisely by avoiding the insertion of other hypothetical flags. And as a reminder, the infobox is for summarizing the article: there is no requirement that a flag be included here at all. R Prazeres (talk) 21:59, 25 February 2024 (UTC)

15th-16th century mansas

I would like to draw attention to some problems regarding the identities of the mansas "Musa III", "Uli II", "Mahmud II", and "Mahmud III". The existence of mansas of these names seems to be yet another example of Delafosse's speculation being treated as historical fact. It is known from João de Barros that the Portuguese sent emissaries to the mansa of Mali late in João II's reign (c. 1490–1495) and in 1534, and that both of these mansas had the same name, but their name is not directly mentioned. Separately in Barros's account, he mentions emissaries being sent to someone called "Mahamed bem Manzugul, grandson of Mussa, king of Songo," which is "one of the most populous cities of...Mandinga," during the reign of João II. Delafosse thought this was the mansa of Mali, and suggested that "Manzugul" should be read as "Mansa Uli", thereby concluding that the two mansas contacted by the Portuguese were both named Mahmud, and that the earlier Mahmud was preceded by his father Uli and grandfather Musa. However, as discussed by Masonen (2000), it is not altogether clear that "Mahamed bem Manzugul" was a mansa of Mali, and indeed there seems to be good reason to think he was not. Several possibilities have been suggested over the years; Barth was under the impression that "Mahamed bem Manzugul" was a nephew of Askia Musa (perhaps confusing Portuguese neto "grandson" with German Neffe "nephew"?), Garrard apparently suggested he was a ruler of Begho, and Masonen speculatively suggested that "Mahamed", "king of Songo" could even refer to a Songhai ruler named Muhammad—i.e. Askia Muhammad himself. Suffice to say, there are a lot of problems with our coverage of the 15th-16th century history of Mali, and extensive revisions are needed. Ornithopsis (talk) 02:04, 13 May 2023 (UTC)