Talk:Manchester Grammar School/Archive 1

Eton of the North?

A search for "Eton of the North" gets ten hits, none of them MGS => removed the assertion. In short, lots of people would like to think theit school is the EotN, but, err, they're not.—Preceding unsigned comment added by Tagishsimon (talk • contribs) 02:30, 14 May 2004 (UTC)

No - it's a lot better than Eton in terms of academic study and sporting results. Its a bit of a slur on MGS to describe it as such. I'm not aware that Eton has EVER produced a nobel prize winner (for example) never mind several winners...

Eton of the North would be somewhat misleading, particularly as the title is usually attributed to Fettes. MGS' greatest fame came as the greatest of the Direct Grant Grammars in the sixties- leader of the schools trying to challenge the old public schools in their dominance of top-end education. Lord James would have been most unflattered by the comparison. That said, MGS' reputation for academic excellence certainly qualifies it for consideration as one of the great schools in the land. --Evil Capitalist 17:06, 27 September 2005 (UTC) (an ON, not an OM)

Selective, fee-paying grammar school for boys in Rusholme; mainly concerned with maintaining its place in the league table of sending kids to Oxbridge.

Ric Euteneuer —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.119.19.20 (talk • contribs) 14:28, 10 October 2005 (UTC)

I'm a pupil

I am a current pupil at MGS and I have to mention the subject choices during 2nd year and 4th year, focusing on languages. As we are often told, 1st and 2nd year and a 'trial period' where we get to grips with the school and prepare for what there is to come. During the 2nd year, I had subject choices, and was appaled to see that you could not drop French. I understand the importance of studing languages, (I selected two other languages in my choices) but surely we should be able to drop French if we studied other languages? Oh, and for any Old Harrovians reading this, John McCririck attended Harrow, along with Mark Thatcher, two of the greatest embarrassments this country has ever seen.

Current pupil —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.130.144.28 (talk • contribs) 11:57, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

I was at Harrow in the same house at the same time as John McCririck. He's a joke, not an embarrassment! I admit to being amazed at his achieving celebrity status, but you can't blame him for finding a winning formula. Mark Thatcher is a different matter, but how many schools would refuse the Prime Minister's request for her son to attend?

Studying, by the way, is spelt with a "y" = not studing! And you a language student .....!

Curmudgeonly Old Harrovian

As a current pupil of MGS I would have to agree with Ric's view on MGS, we have a very high quality cricket, football, rugby, swimming and water polo team. The teachers hold very high standards for us all in many aspects and has total tolerance towards disabilities and religious rituals; for instance there is a student in my year Jack who has to use a wheel chair and the school has totally refurbished the school just to habilitate his needs. So, Eton of the North? On the contrary, I think it's MGS of the South. -----------> Keep dreaming kid

Like MGS's selective education policy - previously good kids get better results ?? Wow - now there's a revelation - MGS's sports programme is the same. You are tested early on for sporting ability, and if you show none, then you are basically given a football/cricket bat etc , and told to go and play in a corner of a field. No point in wasting good coaching time on pupils who aren't going to achieve good results. Likewise with lower sets for Maths and other subjects - give them the worst teachers. Or even, as happened when I was there, ask low achieving pupils to leave.

Current Pupil

Are you quite sure you got the irony in Ric's description? As an OM myself, I immediately recognised the grain of truth in what he said, at least in relation to the ethos I encountered nearly thirty years ago. However, your points are valid too. Regarding tolerance - was there any truth in the short-lived insertion about the rash of Nazi grafitti? Back in 1977/8, I and a number of my friends were heavily criticised for attempting to set up an MGS branch of the Anti-Nazi League (you'd think a school with such a substantial number of Jewish students would welcome this, wouldn't you?). If the grafitti thing is true, I don't like to say 'told you so', but... :-) Guy Hatton 14:46, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

Mmmm, the Nazi grafitti... the cases are true, grafitti, normally swastikas, has appeared a few times now, in toilets, I was startled to walk into a cubicle in the French Block (which stinks by the way) to find the walls covered in Swastikas all over the walls (and a 666 was also on the wall), frankly averyone is disgusted and, despite all this, no perpatrator has been caught! Despite this, I a do think an Anti-Nazi group is a little distastefull, I get your point; but the Nazis are long gone, and facism is not the cause of the grafitti, it is downright disrespect and unruly pupils trying to destroy the system in the most despicable way possible for their stupid brains to come up with, so the come up with being downright offensive!

Current Pupil —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.140.49.190 (talk • contribs) 19:18, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

Nobel prize winner that went to MGS - John Polanyi: http://www.utoronto.ca/jpolanyi/profile/profile2.html Oh and yeah unfortunately the nazi graffiti in the toilets did happen... :( -- Anonymous current pupil. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.56.99.106 (talk • contribs) 22:19, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

I have visited MGS once and I was impressed by the facilitys and the options available to pupils, however this does not counter balance the fact that most of the pupils attending MGS are arrogant snobs. When I visited I was in school uniform, and I did not recieve a single friendly glance or gesture, when I took the bus with my friend, all I got was abuse. The pupils constantly talked about how they are so much more intelligent than other people. Although my school is volutary aided and the some of the students come from the poorest parts of Manchester, they still show some decent qualities and they always give a warm welcome. This maybe the fact that my school is catholic and the students have been brought up to be polite and friendly. Please tell me that my assumption about MGS is wrong.

from an anonymous pupil who attends St Ambrose College

I go to the school. Only a few are arrogant snobs. If you visited a lesson in class someone would have talked to you or your parents; on the other hand, if you meant as you were walking along a corridor, well, why would anyone take any notice of you then? If you expect strangers to say hello to you just because you're a visitor then you're very arrogant. Simiarly, if you visited a foreign country nobody would take any notice of you. "The pupils constantly talked about how they are so much more intelligent than other people." is completely false. Categorising everyone that goes to the school as being of a common mindset is extremely narrow-minded. -- infinity0 20:09, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

I don't think we we *that* up ourselves! I don't think any of us had difficulty spelling 'facilities', 'receive' or 'voluntary', either :-D Guy Hatton 08:56, 25 March 2006 (UTC) (And I used to be able to spell 'were' too. Oops). Guy Hatton 07:11, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

I attended in the Eighties and I think the charge of arrogance is grounded in truth of a kind. Trouble is, you have to pass fairly tough exams to get in to the school, and the academic standards are indeed very high. I was something of an underachiever, and got hauled in front of the High Master for a roasting due to my scandalously poor O-level results: 2 As, 3 Bs, 3 Cs and a D. Mind you I have an IQ of around 150 and I wasn't slow to broadcast that as a defence of sorts - and there's the intellectual arrogance again. In retrospect I was probably just such a person as has been described. However, the kids who attend are very clever, no question, and the school is happy to foster that notion - plus the fact that when I entered the Lower Sixth, MGS was nominated best school in England by the Sunday Times. It's completely unsurprising that an elitist attitude creeps in every now and again. Summary? Easy. I honestly believe I got the best education money could buy, and to this day I am grateful that I was able to go to school there. - An Old Mancunian

The Lumoxes

Members of the Lumoxes have twice been added to this page. I do not see that in any way the Lumoxes meet WP:MUSIC standard for notability, and hence should not be on this page. Further attempts to include them will probably be considered vandalism - if the IP address who has added them disagrees with this, it might be better to debate on the talk page before amending the article. Didsbury ryder 19:35, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

The IP 128.243.220.41 is from the University of Nottingham so banning won't be an option. Infinity0 ^talk 19:38, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

Sprog Jog

Just a couple of things about the Sprog Jog I think you should know (I did it last year so I know what it is like in modern years), the Jog is NOT held on heir first day, it is held whenever the school decides, and it is now a jog twice around Fallowfield, the Rugby pitches adjacent to the school. Just thought you should know if you are about to merge them.

Current Pupil

Didn't exist in 1975, I can tell you that much: Ric Euteneuer

Or 1971, thankfully! Just wish the Gatley hadn't existed either: I can't think of anything much more pointless than running round Birchfields Park :-) Guy Hatton 14:01, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

They moved the race to inside the school grounds now. These days if you tried running in Birchfields Park you'd get mugged by scallies ;) -- infinity0 17:00, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

That bad, huh? I did notice that the surrounding area looked rather more run down than I remembered it being when I passed by last summer. Personally, I blame Thatcher :-) Guy Hatton 09:23, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

Are you sure about that, I did the sprog jog in '97 (not so long ago) and my class mates did the gatley in 2001 (when i was in 4th year) both of which went through Birchfields park, has it changed since then, I mean ther have only been for Gatleys since?!Justcop

Aye aye. :D -- infinity0 16:13, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

Um Im pretty sure that the gatley and the sprog jog are different. The sprog jog taking place shortly after the michaelmas term begins for first years, and the gatley some time in second year. I may be wrong, it's been about 4 years since I was in second year... - Current Pupil

The Sprog Jog takes place towards the middle of the year within the school grounds (compulsory for Lower School students) and the Gatley takes place near the end of the Summer Term, again within the school grounds (each form throughout the school provides a voluntary team)

Another current student —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.132.34.203 (talk) 17:21, 4 February 2010 (UTC)

I'm Ximin, and I'm in 6th form, like you are. Who's this? -- infinity0 21:50, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

It's Hanaan.

Haha, nice one. See you tomorrow :P -- infinity0 23:36, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

Grammar School?

Are grammar and spelling included on the MGS curriculum? To judge from some of the above, perhaps it is no longer considered of importance.

Old Harrovian.

Haha, I'm sure there are plenty of misspellers at your school too. ;) -- infinity0 21:39, 4 March 2006 (UTC)

I expect so! But I hope that they might correct their contributions before displaying them in public. Sorry to be a curmudgeonly old bugger, but I regret the decline in care over the written and spoken word.

OH

I regret it too. I believe you meant to say "Are grammar and spelling..." Or were you expecting the answer "Yes, they is."?

An Old Mancunian

I have always regarded Grammar and Spelling as uncountable nouns and therefore singular - though I accept that the reply would be "yes, they are!" so I take your point!

OH harfo32

Eton of the North

A search for "Eton of the North" gets ten hits, none of them MGS => removed the assertion. In short, lots of people would like to think theit school is the EotN, but, err, they're not. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tagishsimon (talk • contribs) 02:30, 14 May 2004‎

No - it's a lot better than Eton in terms of academic study and sporting results. Its a bit of a slur on MGS to describe it as such. I'm not aware that Eton has EVER produced a nobel prize winner (for example) never mind several winners... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 170.252.64.1 (talk • contribs) 10:07, 26 October 2004‎

Eton of the North would be somewhat misleading, particularly as the title is usually attributed to Fettes. MGS' greatest fame came as the greatest of the Direct Grant Grammars in the sixties- leader of the schools trying to challenge the old public schools in their dominance of top-end education. Lord James would have been most unflattered by the comparison. That said, MGS' reputation for academic excellence certainly qualifies it for consideration as one of the great schools in the land. --Evil Capitalist 17:06, 27 September 2005 (UTC) (an ON, not an OM)

Selective, fee-paying grammar school for boys in Rusholme; mainly concerned with maintaining its place in the league table of sending kids to Oxbridge.

Ric Euteneuer — Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.119.19.20 (talk • contribs) 14:28, 10 October 2005‎

The Lumoxes

Members of the Lumoxes have twice been added to this page. I do not see that in any way the Lumoxes meet WP:MUSIC standard for notability, and hence should not be on this page. Further attempts to include them will probably be considered vandalism - if the IP address who has added them disagrees with this, it might be better to debate on the talk page before amending the article. Didsbury ryder 19:35, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

The IP 128.243.220.41 is from the University of Nottingham so banning won't be an option. Infinity0 ^talk 19:38, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

Sprog Jog

Just a couple of things about the Sprog Jog I think you should know (I did it last year so I know what it is like in modern years), the Jog is NOT held on heir first day, it is held whenever the school decides, and it is now a jog twice around Fallowfield, the Rugby pitches adjacent to the school. Just thought you should know if you are about to merge them.

Current Pupil — Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.56.99.106 (talk • contribs) 21:56, 30 January 2006‎

Didn't exist in 1975, I can tell you that much: Ric Euteneuer — Preceding unsigned comment added by 145.254.139.254 (talk • contribs) 22:27, 17 February 2006‎

Or 1971, thankfully! Just wish the Gatley hadn't existed either: I can't think of anything much more pointless than running round Birchfields Park :-) Guy Hatton 14:01, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

They moved the race to inside the school grounds now. These days if you tried running in Birchfields Park you'd get mugged by scallies ;) -- infinity0 17:00, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

That bad, huh? I did notice that the surrounding area looked rather more run down than I remembered it being when I passed by last summer. Personally, I blame Thatcher :-) Guy Hatton 09:23, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

Are you sure about that, I did the sprog jog in '97 (not so long ago) and my class mates did the gatley in 2001 (when i was in 4th year) both of which went through Birchfields park, has it changed since then, I mean ther have only been for Gatleys since?!Justcop

Aye aye. :D -- infinity0 16:13, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

Um Im pretty sure that the gatley and the sprog jog are different. The sprog jog taking place shortly after the michaelmas term begins for first years, and the gatley some time in second year. I may be wrong, it's been about 4 years since I was in second year... - Current Pupil — Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.56.99.106 (talk • contribs) 21:44, 9 March 2006‎

I'm Ximin, and I'm in 6th form, like you are. Who's this? -- infinity0 21:50, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

It's Hanaan. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.56.99.106 (talk • contribs) 23:24, 9 March 2006‎

Haha, nice one. See you tomorrow :P -- infinity0 23:36, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

Luke Bennett

Who is Luke Bennett (actor)? The only Luke Bennett I can find was an editor http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0071896/ , and I can't find any biographical details to indicate if he used to attend MGS or not. Didsbury ryder 12:13, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

He has no article, so even if he exists he's probably not notable enough to be included. I'm deleting it until someone provides evidence of notability. -- infinity0 15:56, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

There was a Teacher about 5 years ago alled MR Bennet, who died whilst he was at the school, I don't know if he was called luke but this could be a reference — Preceding unsigned comment added by Justcop (talk • contribs) 11:26, 16 April 2006‎

- Matt Bennet taught me RS for a year and a half and sadly died from, I think ,a brain haemorrhage, so no it does not refer to him. Matt Bennet was a great guy btw. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.56.99.106 (talk • contribs) 14:18, 20 April 2006‎

Highmasters

The list of high masters here is pretty pathetic considering the school was founded in 1515. Does someone still at the school want to go and note down the list outside the mem hall so that we can have a complete collection. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Justcop (talk • contribs) 00:35, 21 April 2006‎

I'll go do it, but you sound like you're familiar with the place. Who are you? -- infinity0 13:50, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

Academic Life

"the current Academic year 2010/2011". This is no longer the current academic year. This points up the danger of using time specific terminology. I suggest either the word 'current' is deleted, or the years and number of pupils be amended. Dawright12 (talk) 14:15, 18 November 2012 (UTC)

School Officers

"... Gold and Blue Prefects. They can be identified by their badges, which bear the School's coat of arms in addition to the Gold Prefect Tie."

This seems incorrect to me. The article later states

1) that Blue Prefects wore blue ties; and

2) that there are no longer Blue Prefects as from 2012/2013.

I think the references to Blue Prefects should therefore be in the past tense - if at all.

Similarly, the paragraph about Silver Prefects seems undecided whether to be in the past tense or the present.

However, I am not a pupil or an Old Mancunian so some fine point may have escaped me. Dawright12 (talk) 14:45, 18 November 2012 (UTC)

Assessment

Looking critically for brilliant writing

Wikipedia:Good article criteria

It's not the quantity of material that is holding this article back- but the lack of accurate in-line quotes. It is obvious that people care about the prose and the structure but a little time spent getting the citations right would be more useful. So an afternoon spent in the library with a copy of J A Graham and B A Phythian putting page numbers to the citations would be helpful. Learn to use the citation reference system, you can use the Didsbury page to see exactly how references should be placed. Be aware that the school website may not be considered a reliable independent source for other than trivial facts (such as timing of the school day). Imagine what the article would look like if all the paragraphs that are not supported by inline quotes are zapped- in can happen!

Help is almost instantly available by putting a request on this page. --ClemRutter (talk) 23:33, 4 December 2012 (UTC)

Original Research/Unverifiable Content

A lot of this article (especially the 'Buildings' section, the 'Life at the School' section, and the 'Community Action' section) is unverifiable, and is quite probably original research. WP:NOR very obviously, and explicitly, states that articles must not contain OR. Even if there is no original research, WP:V very obviously, and explicitly, states that articles must be verifiable. Both WP:NOR and WP:V are core content policies, and really shouldn't be ignored. If this content stays unverified, it may be removed, so someone needs to verify a lot of the content (the 'Buildings' section, the 'Life at the School' section, and the 'Community Action' section), presumably whoever added it. Jdp407 (talk) 14:49, 3 March 2013 (UTC)

I see the above editorial intervention has met with the response it deserves over the past nine months. But as a gesture of forgiveness, here at least is a source for the architects of the original Fallowfield building, which has just been circulated by the school itself in reproduction. It is the 1931 building appeal, over the signature of the then Chairman and deputy Chairman of the governors, the Treasurer, and the High Master, Douglas Miller. It names the architects credited in the article, and also indicates that Worthington (a name to conjure with in Victorian Manchester)had that year been honoured with the King's Gold Medal of the RIBA, and that Jones was himself an Old Mancunian, and the son of a revered member of staff. It also mentions the JL Paton Library and the Memorial Hall. Just exactly what is so unverifiable about buildings?46.64.179.37 (talk) 19:04, 17 January 2014 (UTC)

Where and how can I (or an historian who is interested) verify the contents of the 1931 building appeal?

By the way, you're an editor too. Everyone who edits these pages is an editor. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 20:19, 17 January 2014 (UTC)

You can verify the contents of the 1931 building appeal by contacting the school. I know that this can't be done by a google search, but it seems unlikely that the IP or anyone else is fabricating the information. Dingo1729 (talk) 22:21, 17 January 2014 (UTC)

Does this document have an ISSN or ISBN? A has a copy been lodged at the relevant libraries? Wikipedia can only use secondary sources- the act of gathering information is what Wikipedia calls original research. WP:NOR very obviously, and explicitly, states that articles must not contain OR. There are several ways forward, it would be great if some of the academics working at MGS shared their skills by editing Wikipedia, they would be most welcome. If a group of staff wish to approach Wikipedia say by contacting any editor listed at m:Meetup/Manchester/21 courses can be arranged on Wikipedia editing- and maybe even a Wikipedian in Residence appointed. -- Clem Rutter (talk) 00:26, 18 January 2014 (UTC)

Given that the school has (or recently had) its own full-time archivist, the idea of a WiR, either full-time or part-time, additional or replacement, etc, would be (as the northerners allegedly still say) a grand idea! --Demiurge1000 (talk) 02:14, 18 January 2014 (UTC)

Demiurge will either be aware of Pevsner or not. That would seem to be a card-carrying secondary source. I'd have cited the Lancashire volumes If I'd had them, or been aware that they have now morphed into more than two. A current one apparently covering South East Lancashire will certainly have the school buildings, though how far updated beyond the late 1960s I can't say. The original editorial comment which irked me, incidentally, originated from someone based in Cheshire. It seemed better to quote a printed source I could lay my hands on immediately. it also contains the names of early contributors to the 1931 building fundDelahays (talk) 13:16, 18 January 2014 (UTC)

I have added further tags to the article. See above for advice. -- Clem Rutter (talk) 10:17, 26 February 2014 (UTC)

Member of Staff

In response to an invitation from User:ClemRutter I am proposing to help update this article. My name is Simon Duffy and I am a regular user of Wikipedia. I have been a teacher at the Manchester Grammar School in Manchester since September 1985 and am currently the Head of the Computing Department. I make all edits in a personal capacity not as an agent of MGS, and if any Wikipedian feels that an edit I have made is controversial they should revert it and flag it up on the talkpage which other Wikipedians are watching. One of my main aims is to improve the contents and quality of the article about Manchester Grammar School using Norwich School (independent school) as a model. I was a biology teacher at Norwich School between 1981 and 1985.Serendipityrules (talk) 08:44, 28 January 2015 (UTC)

References

User:Serendipityrules, I suggest you start with a bibliography section. Here's a couple of books to get you going: [1] and [2]. Good luck! Oncenawhile (talk) 21:32, 3 February 2015 (UTC)