Talk:María Elena Holly/Archive 1

First/Last name

Most of the articles on Buddy Holly always refer to him as "Buddy" and yes I realize that is sort of his claim to fame, but isn't the proper way to address somebody (as i usually see on wikipedia anyway) by their last name? In the same sentance we refer to Buddy as Buddy and Maria as Santiago. 65.92.177.198 (talk) 18:20, 14 July 2009 (UTC)

Former

former widow? wouldn't a widow be a widow always? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.205.140.121 (talk) 23:11, 4 October 2009 (UTC)

You coulda fixed that yourself, you know. Maikel (talk) 10:23, 11 October 2009 (UTC)

We should try not to bite new editors asking style questions. I realize this is an 8 year old question and snarky reply, but there are still many style issues with this article and we may get more questions about such. I believe that User was asking if Wikipedia's rules of style are different than those of Newspapers and other formats where once a person is the widow or widower of someone, they remain that even after remarriage. That's why we don't bite newbies; we don't know what they are asking. In general, Wikipedia uses the same style rules as most finer newspapers. I hope that helps someone in the future.20:10, 15 March 2017 (UTC)

Santiago?

Why does the article refer to her as "Santiago", if that was only her maiden name?

To my knowledge, her current name is Maria Elena Holly. In the article, she could be referred to by her given name in order to avoid referring to her as "Holly", which could be confusing. Maikel (talk) 10:38, 11 October 2009 (UTC)

Done. Maikel (talk) 11:40, 11 October 2009 (UTC)

• Maikel, you have done an excellent job and your observations are great ones. The situation here is that in encyclopedia biographies the subject is always referred to by their surnames and not their given first names. Even though she remarried later it seems to me that after she widowed once more she went back to retaining Buddy's surname. I think that the best thing to do in this case would be to referrer to her as "Santiago-Holly" which seems to be the norm these days. Tony the Marine (talk) 21:05, 11 October 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for the roses! ;)

But we can't just invent a monicker such as Santiago-Holly for her here, especially as it's an unlikely one (double names were pretty much unheard of in the 1950ies, and even if she'd have used one it would have been Holly-Santiago, etc.). In all the articles I have read she's referred to as "Maria Elena Holly". Although this makes it difficult to distinguish between her and Buddy Holly without always using her full married name, if you disagree with the Maria Elena nomenclature, you should change the article accordingly. Maikel (talk) 08:39, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

• It isn't an invented moniker. Maiden surnames go before the surname acquired by marriage. She will always be a Santiago, while she will be a Holly as long as she is married or in case she becomes (she did) a widow and choses' to retain said surname. Maria Elena remarried, do you honestly believe that she continued to use "Holly" or her then husband's surname? The articles in which she referrers to herself as "Holly" were written after her second widowhood, let us be honest with ourselves an accept the fact that the "Holly" surname also has its commercial convenience. It may not have a been a common practice among married women to use both surnames in the 1950s, however since we are in the 2000s, it would be less confusing for our readers. Look, I would be more then willing to change it back to your version, my only concern here is the usage of first given names within the article as opposed the established usage of surnames which is the norm. You state that the usage of "Holly" adds to confusion, yet you do not agree with the usage of "Santiago" or "Santiago-Holly" as a means to address this situation. If she is going to be referred to only as "Maria Elena Holly" then she should be referred to simply as "Holly", taking into consideration that the reader will have the common sense to know whom it is being referred to while reading the article. Here you have the case of two notable brothers whose surnames are Riefkohl, Rudolph W. Riefkohl and Frederick Lois Riefkohl, in their respective articles they are referred to as "Riefkohl" yet no one has complained as having confussed one with the other. Tony the Marine (talk) 20:57, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

If this woman does not herself give her surname as "Santiago-Holly" then it's inappropriate for the article to call her that and use the hyphen. As an example, if a woman keeps her own name (let's say it was "Smith") after marriage to her spouse (let's say his surname is "Jones") then after the marriage she is still "Jane Smith". Likewise if she chooses to change her name to her husband's then her name is "Jane Jones". It is NOT "Jane Smith-Jones" unless she chooses to adopt the last name of "Smith-Jones" with a hyphen after marriage. If absolutely necessary to state her maiden name for something like a legal document or an obituary, then it is more properly stated as "Jane Smith Jones" or "Jane (Smith) Jones", but never hyphenated unless the woman specifically chooses to use a hyphenated name. Furthermore, since this lady as far as I know has gone by "Maria Elena Holly" since she married Buddy, I would think the more appropriate way to name her would be "Holly" or if necessary to distinguish her from Buddy then call her "Maria Holly". TheBlinkster (talk) 17:44, 11 November 2015 (UTC)

Language, NPOV

I have tried to make some of the formulations more elegant, removed redundant information (the background of the song Peggy Sue is dealt with in a separate article) and ironed out some blatantly non-NPOV segments. But don't thank me. Maikel (talk) 11:40, 11 October 2009 (UTC)

Edits on 11-Oct 2009

Sorry that I made so many edits, but my browser kept crashing. Maikel (talk) 14:09, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

María

If her given name is spelt María (with an accent aiqu over the lowercase "I") rather than "Maria", then this nomenclature should be used throughout the article. Thanks, Maikel (talk) 11:21, 14 October 2009 (UTC)

Later Years

"Early in 2008, Santiago-Holly visited the apartment building where she and Holly lived. There, she observed musicians in nearby Washington Square Park, where Holly often played his guitar. "I gave one musician $9 because 9 was Buddy's favorite number", she told the Avalanche-Journal. She said that she has never come to grips with his premature death.[3]" Reference 3 is an article from 1959, presumably not prescient enough to know what was going to happen in 2008. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.149.120.216 (talk) 23:04, 12 January 2011 (UTC)

Had never been out on a date?

Could we have a reliable citation to verify that she "had never been out on a date" at the age of 25, as the article states? — O'Dea (talk) 22:19, 1 September 2011 (UTC)

• Puerto Rican upbringings in accordance to their traditions and customs at the time, unlike the US and other places where women had more dating and sexual freedoms, was strict with the female gender. Regardless, I am sure that if you "google" search you will find the reliable source that you are requesting. Take care Tony the Marine (talk) 23:44, 1 September 2011 (UTC)

Please explain this

I found:

"However, her own comments from February 3, 1959 seem to refute this." — Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.63.16.45 (talk) 19:46, 21 December 2012 (UTC)

Peggy Sue controversy

'When Peggy Sue Gerron, the woman to whom the 1957 classic "Peggy Sue", as well as the posthumously released "Peggy Sue Got Married", were dedicated, published her autobiography "Whatever Happened to Peggy Sue?", in 2008, Santiago-Holly unsuccessfully tried to sue her.'

What was the issue? Valetude (talk) 00:21, 26 September 2013 (UTC)

2nd marriage & children

Is there a special reason for not naming her second husband or their three children? Valetude (talk) 17:47, 1 August 2014 (UTC)

I don't know, although yesterday I edited the Spouse(s) section; besides adding "; his death" for Buddy Holly, I inserted "2nd husband (?-?; divorced)" because that is all that's provided here on Wikipedia as it stands now.

Nationality

The writer/editor has stated Mrs. Holly's nationality as "Puerto Rican". Puerto Ricans are US citizens since Puerto Rico is part of the United States. Having been born in Puerto Rico, her "nationality" can only be "United States American" since she is (and has always been) a US citizen. There is simply no such nationality as Puerto Rican, as the commonwealth is not a sovereign nation. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.162.92.188 (talk) 22:08, 9 November 2014 (UTC)

• Sorry, but you are wrong. On October 25, 2006, the Puerto Rican State Department declared the existence of the Puerto Rican nationality (see: Juan Mari Bras). Puerto Rican nationality was recognized in 1898 after Spain ceded the island to the United States as a result of the Spanish-American War. On April 12, 1900, the Congress of the United States enacted the Foraker Act of 1900. Section VII of this act created a Puerto Rican citizenship for the residents "born in Puerto Rico and, therefore, subject to its jurisdiction". In 1917, the United States granted Puerto Ricans U.S. citizenship without the requirement that the islanders renounce their PR citizenship. Since then, everyone born in Puerto Rico are both Puerto Ricans and U.S. citizens. However, in Puerto Rico, Puerto Rican do not enjoy full U.S. citizenship rights because their rights as such are limited (For example: they can not vote in the Presidential elections). Puerto Ricans do not need to renounce either of the citizenships and do not need a passport to go to the continental United States and once there can participate in every activity as every other U.S. citizen.

Laws Concerning Citizenship/Nationality

The modern world is divided up into nations with each nation, at least nominally, exercising control over its own territory and the people who reside within that territory. Among modern nations, citizenship at birth is conveyed in one of two ways; either though Jus soli (the right of the soil or the land) meaning that one’s nationality is determined by the place of one's birth; or through jus sanguinis (the right of blood) where nationality is determined by the nationality of one's descent (parents). Birthright citizenship is the term used for Jus soli as it is applied under US law.

Tony the Marine (talk) 00:40, 10 November 2014 (UTC)

References