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Afghan vs. Iranian

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Why the Maryam Monsef case matters https://tnc.news/2016/11/03/candice-malcolm-why-the-maryam-monsef-case-matters/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by CanadianTRUTH (talk • contribs) 14:54, 3 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]


Note that the article has already been updated in all of the relevant places for the revelation that she was actually born in Iran rather than Afghanistan. However, citizenship is more complex than simply the place of physical birth alone — it also depends on the citizenship of the parents, for example, as well as the ethnic background. Despite the nuances of her physical birth, Monsef is Afghan by both ethnicity and citizenship and not an Iranian citizen or an ethnic Persian, so the introductory paragraph is not to be reworded to describe her as "Iranian-Canadian" instead of "Afghan-Canadian". (And that goes for "Afghan" categories too, for the record.) Bearcat (talk) 16:10, 22 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

That's right. Pahlevun (talk) 16:11, 22 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
There is no such thing as 'Afghan by ethnicity', Afghanistan is made up of several ethnic groups, none of which make up a majority (pashtuns are ~35-40%) and Iranian does not necessarily equate to persian since ~35-40% of Iran's population is made up of non-persians (Azeri and other Turks, Kurds, Baluchis and other Iranian groups, Arabs etc.), On the other hand there is a cultural/language bond between Iran and Northern Afghanistan as both speak Persian (Farsi in Iran, Dari in Afghanistan) and one of the dialects cross the border (stretching from Herat to Mashad) 104.219.204.80 (talk) 18:50, 29 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Read Bearcat's well-reasoned comment above again. I don't think the issue can possibly be explained any clearer that that. Regards   Aloha27  talk  22:50, 29 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I think you (as well as the person who wrote it) needs to read it again so you can clearly recognize the mistake, He/She mentioned 'Afghan by ethnicity'. There is No 'Afghan' ethnicity just as there is no 'Yugoslavian' ethnicity or 'Indian' ethnicity, its a country consisting of multiple ethnicities and was developed/created through the great game between colonial powers. There is Afghan Nationality (just like Indian Nationality, etc.) but then again nationality is NOT equal to ethnicity in these cases. BTW Monsef could still be Persian and Afghan by nationality 104.219.204.80 (talk) 00:52, 30 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
It's a moot point, as she's not Iranian by citizenship — the fact that her ethnic group might happen to cross the Afghanistan/Iran border does not, in and of itself, make her Persian or Iranian "by nationality", as Iranian citizenship is not granted based solely on the place of physical birth. Bearcat (talk) 15:58, 30 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
It is NOT a moot point as there is no such thing as an 'afghan ethnicity', and my point about her being persian was refuting you claim that one's ethnicity changes automatically as they are from another side of the recently created border (recently created as in the last century or so) 104.219.204.80 (talk) 22:40, 30 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Iranian citizenship is not granted to children born in Iran to parents who are not Iranian citizens — and accordingly, there is no basis for any claim that she can be credibly described as "Iranian". What part of that fact are you having trouble comprehending? Bearcat (talk) 03:56, 2 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Its the part where you describe her as "Afghan by ethnicity" since there is no 'afghan' ethnic group - and its not a matter of having trouble comprehending as much as the fact that you are wrong 172.98.149.86 (talk) 04:40, 2 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I made one very minor wording mistake in my comment, which has exactly zero bearing on the fact that the substance of my point was and still is correct: she was not and is not an Iranian citizen. Bearcat (talk) 05:03, 2 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Iranian Citizenship

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In the updated article its written that "Despite her Iranian birth, Monsef has never held Iranian citizenship and has always been considered an Afghan citizen." The thing is that Iran doesn't give citizenship to someone born in Iran unless one of the parents is also Iranian. The article somehow implies that she could have got Iranian citizenship because of being born in Iran but she didnt get it by choice as she considers herself Afghan. It should be updated to "Dispite her Iranian birth, Monsef didnt have Iranian citizenship because Iranian law does not permit children of Afghan refugees to get Iranian citizenship even if born in Iran. drsaeed90 (talk) 18:17, 22 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

The main reason it was added is to clarify why she's not being flipped from "Afghan Canadian" to "Iranian Canadian" in the introduction or the categories — which people have wrongly tried to do several times today. I'll consider rewording it slightly to accomodate your concerns, but the full exact wording you provided above is a little too prolix. Bearcat (talk) 18:31, 22 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Date of birth

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I expect this is an ongoing story. Her bios have generally said her year of birth was 1985. Her Parliamentary website said so until Sept. 22, 2016, when it was changed to 1984. No one has said yet whether she ever had a birth certificate. One odd fact is that, on being sworn in to cabinet Nov. 2, 2015, her age was stated as 30. If they thought she was born Nov. 7, 1985, then they would have thought she was 29. And a news story published January 17, 2016, says "At the age of 31, Democratic Institutions Minister Maryam Monsef is the youngest member of Justin Trudeau’s cabinet." Again, not consistent with the date of 1985. I have no explanation. Yet. Wilfred Day (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 18:06, 23 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not sure any grand explanation would be warranted, really. My own grandmother found out, only while preparing her papers to file for retirement at age 65, that she was actually 67 — her parents had deliberately lied about her age in order to hold her back from school for two years to help out with chores around the family farm, so she went through her entire adult life thinking she was two years younger than she really was. People can be innocently wrong about their real birthdate, and people can outright lie about it (the stereotype of the vain Hollywood actress who misrepresents herself as being ten years younger than she really is does exist for a reason, after all) — and it's hardly a major news story in and of itself when a person's birthdate gets misrepresented, especially if (a) it was only off by one year rather than nine or ten, and (b) they eventually correct it themselves. To be honest, I'm not even entirely sure why The Globe and Mail bothered digging into her birth story at all — were they really that sadly lacking for important news to cover that going all the way to Afghanistan just to find out if an MP was really born in Afghanistan or not seemed like a worthwhile use of their time and resources? Bearcat (talk) 17:51, 24 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Paul Godfrey doesn't like the Liberals. Explains their "vote for the Conservatives but Stephen Harper should resign afterwards" endorsement that they gave in the last election. In any case, Bearcat is right on the issues. Unless there is something more to this, this story doesn't really matter at all and shouldn't get more than a few sentences of coverage. ---- Patar knight - chat/contributions 18:30, 24 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
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Semi-protected edit request on 1 September 2021

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It would be good to be mention in the "Taliban comments" section that she is a member of the Hazara ethnic group, which is a common target of the Taliban. Without this context, her comments make her sound like a Taliban apologist, which she almost certainly is not (knowing her background). JackieDon (talk) 02:05, 1 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

We can't infer that she isn't sympathetic from the Taliban just from her background. I've instead inserted a quote that should achieve the same effect. ◢  Ganbaruby!  (talk) 07:42, 1 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Semi-protected edit request on 11 September 2021

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Remove “throughout her career she has sparked a number of controversies.” There are no sources and it’s a personal opinion. 64.229.187.206 (talk) 21:40, 11 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

 Done Melmann 22:05, 11 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
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