Talk:Massacres against Muslims during the Dissolution of the Ottoman Empire

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Stub[edit]

This stub has been created because of a request in help desk humanities with the assurance that it will be built on if started. I am starting the article assuming that this will happen. If not, it will just have to be deleted. DanielDemaret (talk) 01:45, 25 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you very much. Would you mind eliminating from the name of the article the words "in the Balkans" as this seems to be going to include all the Ottoman territories. --212.174.190.23 (talk) 14:41, 25 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

To do that, I think I would have to start a completely new article, then copy all content, and then delete the original article. I am not sure that I have the editing rights to delete an entire article, so I will leave this for someone else to do. DanielDemaret (talk) 14:52, 25 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

In the meantime, it is a good start. Please do not wait for a change in title. You can continue to add more. The title will surely be changed in due course. DanielDemaret (talk) 16:57, 25 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I can move the article. The question is, where. Massacres against Turks during the Dissolution of the Ottoman Empire? But at least McCarthy seems to talk about Muslims, not Turks - so we could move to the even more general Massacres during the Dissolution of the Ottoman Empire and include e.g. the Armenian Genocide (via reference). --Stephan Schulz (talk) 18:26, 25 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you. The Turkish article mentions Armenians, so that makes sense. Long article names are hard to read. DanielDemaret (talk) 18:57, 25 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

The Turkish article mentions Armenians in the context of many Turks killed by Armenians. (That is another fact of life.) There are several, if not many, articles dedicated to the Armenian tragedy in Wikipedia (WP). There are also as many articles about Greeks killed in Ottoman Turkey. What is lacking in WP is a comprehensive article on massacres on Turks during the last times (or dissolution) of the Ottoman Empire including the period concerning the Turkish National Liberation War. As regards the term "Muslims", that is related to the millet system in the Empire. Every religious community was, in the classical period, a separate "millet", such as the "Muslim", "Greek Orthodox" or Armenian (Gregorian)" millets. Many times the word "Muslim" simply refers to the Ottoman Turks in literature; moreover, there are many academic sources that directly refer to the Turks in this context. So please give a chance to WP to tell the tragedy of the Turks this time. In this framework, and as I said above, eliminate the words "in the Balkans" from the title, so it will be a shorter name also. (The Turkish article is titled "Massacres on Turks and Muslims" and the time-frame is more or less the same.) Regards. --212.174.190.23 (talk) 08:47, 26 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I have corrected the data in the article as per source to avoid speculations. Jingiby (talk) 16:14, 27 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

The title is incorrect. The words "in the Balkans" have to be removed. Jingiby (talk) 16:40, 27 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you! Star Lord - 星王 (talk) 17:37, 27 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Removal of a picture as being irrelevant[edit]

I see that an image has been removed as being irrelevant. The image comes from the original turkish article, and refers to the related time period, so I shall ask the person that removed it about the reason. Star Lord - 星王 (talk) 15:36, 27 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Dear 212.174.190.23. About that image that came and went. I think it would probably be a good idea to first add the relevant text that relates to that particular image, before adding the image. It may even be a better idea to wait with the images until much more text is added. There is a link in the article which relates to the image. If there is a good reason for the image, perhaps that place is a better place for now? Star Lord - 星王 (talk) 17:40, 27 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Dear 212.174.190.23 . May I suggest that you create a wikipedia account? You can use an anonymous email account to start it with if you prefer. It might make collaboration a bit easier. Star Lord - 星王 (talk) 17:41, 27 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

A peculiar picture[edit]

Dear Star Lord, you are right. I have noticed that several people are using the same connection to English Wikipedia like me. It is not nice to see warnings for other people as if they were for you but I don't mind. Anyway, the reason I am writing you is about the picture in Massacres against Turks during the Dissolution of the Ottoman Empire. You see I took this painting from the page Siege of Tripolitsa and used it in the context of the Massacre of Turks by Greeks in Tripolitsa. Suddenly the image was removed and later labeled "romantic", because it was replaced by a "less romantic one", about "mutual" expulsions. (Interestingly enough, in articles about Turks expulsing other nationalities I do not see the "mutual" word. Never mind.) And what is so romantic about a massacre? Do you not see the dead people (civilians) behind the Greek hero with a sword or sable? (I made a link to see if there is an article on Greek hero and there is, I am not going to read it. Above I made a link to Turks being killed by Greeks and tried a link, in vain. You may have noticed that when the Turks are massacred we call it a "siege", well, generally.) On the other hand, the user who has removed the picture as "irrelevant" (see here:http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Massacres_against_Turks_during_the_Dissolution_of_the_Ottoman_Empire&diff=next&oldid=597204887) and "belonging to the 18th Century" (much before the Greek Revolution) has frequented the "Siege of Tripolitsa" (in 1821, 19th Century) article several times but there did not remove the same picture that supposedly does not belong to the era... I cannot understand, is it an image from the Siege of Tripolitsa in 1821 or not? It seems like this article is going to become another Greek tragedy (should I try the brackets?) and at the end will tell the story of how Turks killed Greeks. So I will apologise you for not getting a user name, and more importantly I will apologise the user who initiated the article upon my request because I think I am not going to contribute to it any more. Thank you very much for your interest in this issue and good-bye. --212.174.190.23 (talk) 08:37, 28 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Perhaps the best thing would be to first add more text. Pictures almost never add any information, and are mostly used to lighten up the article. The pictures in the original article in turkish add no content, but are ok since they are few compared to the text. I hope that they also are relevant to the part of the text where they are placed, but I can not read the text to be sure. But if there is no enough text, and only colorful pictures, the entire article often looks like a tourist pamphlet. There has to be a balance. There has to be more text than pictures. There are , of course, exceptions, as in articles about geometry where the pictures may actually add content. Star Lord - 星王 (talk) 15:47, 28 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Title[edit]

The current title is too specialized and one-sided. So, it will be no exaggeration to suggest a move to the more general 'Massacres during the Dissolution of the Ottoman Empire'. I see no reason why to include only atrocities committed by the one side in this era. Off course in case of expansion a split can be latter discussed.Alexikoua (talk) 18:22, 27 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I have no objections to that. Star Lord - 星王 (talk) 19:13, 27 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

It would be maybe better to replace Turks with Ottomans because many of victims were not ethnic Turks.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 20:18, 27 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Really, maybe title as Massacres against Muslims during the Dissolution of the Ottoman Empire will be more accurate article. There were also massacred Pomaks, Vallachides, Bosnjaks, Arnauts, Circassians etc. Jingiby (talk) 15:53, 28 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I agree. Muslims is better term than Ottomans.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 22:56, 28 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Merge?[edit]

Persecution of Ottoman Muslims was created after this article and should be probably merged into it. Anybody against it?--Antidiskriminator (talk) 15:42, 2 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I agree. Jingiby (talk) 18:36, 2 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]