Talk:Master of Arts (Oxford, Cambridge, and Dublin)

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"This practice differs from that in most other universities worldwide, for whom the degree reflects further postgraduate study or achievement, and these degrees thus are frequently referred to as the Oxbridge MA and Dublin or Trinity MA to differentiate them."

Added a citation needed after this, as several of the sources and google results for this issue say that the degrees are generally just referred to as MA, without differentiation - in fact, that's cited as a major issue - so I question how accurate it is to say they are 'frequently referred to as the Oxbridge MA...etc' without citation... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.40.50.216 (talk) 15:39, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

"The Oxbridge MA is based on a system of academic rank rather than academic qualifications."

This seems dubious. For example, the MA is awarded from the University of Dublin, subject to the applicant having achieved a BA over three years previously. There isn't anything in the cited articles of the college calendar that mention anything about academic rank - they only say the applicant needs a BA of 3 years standing. Perhaps the origin of the MA is based on academic rank, but certainly in Dublin in modern times it's very much based on academic qualifications.

On further reflection, the sentence quoted seems to apply just to oxford and cambridge. Could this be cleared up, eg: "The Oxbridge MA, unlike the Dublin MA, is based on a system of academic rank rather than academic qualifications." Would something in that vein be more clear?

Sheels (talk) 14:44, 4 June 2009 (UTC)It should be mentioned as some point that all BA degrees in Trinity are four years, (Junior Freshman, Senior Freshman, Junior Sophister, Senior Sophister), in many disciplines that last two years are considered the Honours years - they count towards the students final marks. It is only candidates that successfully complete the two final years and pass their degree that are entitled to receive the MA.

If you fail third year (and fail the repeat exams, and fail the year a second time) certain schools will not accept you for the final honours year and you finish with a pass degree. Students who leave with a pass degree are not entitled to the MA. Sheels (talk) 14:44, 4 June 2009 (UTC)

In the case of Oxbridge the B.A. degree is awarded first and can be changed to an M.A. three years later on payment of a modest fee.

Is the BA changed into an MA or is the MA a separate degree? JimProfit 18:02, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

The former, IIRC - You don't hold a BA and an MA at the same time. PS the fee has gone too I think now. Bob (still BA...)—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Linuxlad (talk • contribs) 18:44, 16 November 2006 (UTC).

At Oxford the University fee (£10) was still in place as at 2005. JimProfit 15:05, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

At Cambridge you hold both the BA and the MA, but it's conventional to cite only the highest degree in each Faculty (Faculty meaning something such as Arts or Philosophy), so someone with BA, MA, MPhil and PhD would normally only cite MA, PhD. Joseph Myers 01:07, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Many thanks for the responses. I think that answers the point for Cambridge, but can anyone confirm the position for Oxford? JimProfit 15:05, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

The position in Oxford is that you cannot be both a bachelor and a master of arts at the same time - it would be like simultaneously being both an undergraduate and a graduate. When you are admitted to the degree of master of arts, that is your degree or rank in the faculty of arts; you are no longer a bachelor any more than you are an undergraduate. I am therefore very sceptical about the position stated above for Cambridge. Andrew Yong 19:36, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the clarification. Do you know the answer to my question below, about the convention on degree classes for the BA/MA?JimProfit 16:36, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

I thought it was 7 years at Cambridge? Badgerpatrol 13:41, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

I seem to remember from when I got mine a few years ago that the technical requirement it was awarded nine terms after graduating with a BA. Certainly I got mine in March 1998, having got my BA in June 1994. The ceremonies take place after the entitlement to the degree, and in practice not until the Spring following. This does make it nearly seven years after matriculation. David | Talk 17:33, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

I matriculated in October 2002, graduated in July 2005 and I am due to receive my MA in May/June 2009 (next year). BB. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.211.55.98 (talk) 09:08, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

No, it's some number of terms after matriculation – something daft, like 19 or 20 terms. And you don't pay for the Cam ones (at least, didn't in the 1990s). JackyR 17:43, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

At Oxford you are entitled to supplicate for your MA twenty-one terms after matriculation. JimProfit 15:05, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

What is the convention on citing degree classes when you hold an MA? For example if you obtained a 2:1 for the BA, and then you obtained the MA, does the degree class carry over to the MA or does it only apply to the BA? JimProfit 15:05, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

"The Oxford Master of Arts: If you have completed a BA or BFA you will be eligible to take an MA in or after the 21st term since you matriculated (i.e. seven years after matriculation). This is not an automatic process and to obtain your MA you must apply to graduate at a degree ceremony (either in person or in absentia). You must have had your BA or BFA conferred in order to take your MA. They can be conferred at the same ceremony provided that sufficient time has elapsed since you matriculated. You should book for a Degree Day through your college in the usual way. You are not at any point eligible to take an MA if your undergraduate degree is an undergraduate Masters degree. Please note the Oxford MA is not an upgrade of your BA and has no subject or class. We do not issue Degree Confirmation letters as proof of your MA, please use your Degree Certificate as evidence of this award." From http://www.ox.ac.uk/students/graduation/ceremonies/ I hope this clears things up a bit!94.193.253.59 (talk) 18:26, 1 June 2011 (UTC)

In Oxford, the class of the First Public Examination is ignored and the class of Final Honours Schools is treated as the overall class of the degree for the BA, but not for the MA, as the MA is unexamined. In Cambridge, under the Tripos system there is no overall degree class, even for the BA, so it is strictly speaking incorrect to put a degree class next to the degree. Andrew Yong 03:55, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

Since when were Masters' degrees, however gained, undergraduate degrees. They're all postgraduate degrees surely. I shall edit unless someone corrects me Bob aka Linuxlad 18:40, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

Well, the Scottish universities (and a few courses elsewhere) offer them to people who have not yet had a graduation. So they're definitely not postgraduates. Is an "undergraduate degree" a degree studied for by undergraduates (the point of award is a tricky one!)? I If so, one could argue that the Cambridge MA is the degree studied for by undergraduates.(*) But do what you think best. JackyR 22:35, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

• Not in my day it wasn't - (and if you use your logic, a PhD also counts as an undergraduate degree, if it's your first degree awarded at Oxford or Cambridge)(**). Masters have always been clearly postgraduate degree in my book - Bob (BA)

(**) Eh? Which century was your day?! Most of us consider a degree from another university to qualify one as a graduate... :-) (Indeed, isn't there some fiddle where post-grads from other unis get an honorary Cantab MA when they start their PhD? Thus becoming Cam grads? Sorry don't know Oxon rules). But like I say, I'm not too bothered what you put in the article. JackyR 22:44, 12 March 2006 (UTC)

Ageism! That aside, there's really only one real question and one further point -

do you know of a course where a Masters is the lowest degree you _can_ get out of it?

I think you can argue that anyone who has got more than 300 CATS points (or equivalent) is at least technically a 'graduand' (ie someone qualified to proceed to a degree), not an undergraduate.

In Scotland, yes [1]. In Cambridge I've never heard of such a thing. I really only was exploring the arguments: one can just as easily say "The MA is post-grad because you never see an Oxbridge undergraduate turn up for an MA ceremony." PUT WHAT YOU LIKE! :-D JackyR 14:19, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

This article page is inaccurate and needs updating. Any suggestion that the overwhelming majority of people who stay on or return to Oxford to do a Masters degree are not studying and their work is unassessed is a bit insulting. David Lauder 07:02, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

Actually, this article is broadly accurate. At Oxford and Cambridge, BA graduates may proceed to the degree of MA without further study, 21 terms after their original matriculation at the university (although not all choose to do so). There are valid historical reasons why this situation has come about, which are adequately explained in the article itself and in some of the references listed. The key observation is that the Oxbridge MA is an entirely different thing to the MA elsewhere, it just happens to have the same name. Meanwhile, both Oxford and Cambridge do also have postgraduate arts/humanities degrees analogous to other universities' MA - at Oxford it's called MLitt (Master of Letters) and at Cambridge it's an MPhil (Master of Philosophy). -- Nicholas Jackson 08:12, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

You are right in saying that the MPhil at Cambridge is the same sort of degree as the MA (MSc, MMus, etc) at most other universities (although I think the MPhil is usually only nine months, whereas the MA is usually a year). This is in itself rather confusing because an MPhil from many other universities is equaivalent to an MLitt from Oxford or Cambridge, which is to say it is the degree awarded for a thesis of around 60,000 words, generally, these days, to somebody who for some reason was unable to complete a PhD thesis. This brings me to my other point, clarifying the use of MLitt at Oxford. It is not really similar to other universities' MA (etc) degrees. It is, as I just said, a research degree and is in effect an abbreviated DPhil. A one-year (sometimes slightly shorter) postgraduate degree, equivalent to an MA (etc) from another university, is called an MSt or an MSc. Two-year masters courses are generally called MPhil, except in the case of Philosophy, where it is a BPhil. Cambridge also offers some MSt courses. I am not sure how they differ from the Cambridge MPhil, except that some of them are part-time.--Oxonian2006 21:15, 28 July 2007 (UTC)

Other degrees without examination

A C Benson, in his introduction to William Johnson Cory's Ionica, states that "in those days Kingsmen did not enter for the Tripos, but received a degree without examination, by ancient privilege." This refers to a B.A. gained at King's College, Cambridge, in 1845, which was 20 years before they began to allow non-Etonians to enroll. I presume such a privilege would have extended to eligibility for award of an MA a few years after the BA given for residing in college for the prescribed number of terms. Does anyone know when examinations began to be taken by King's College undergraduates? Was this privilege extended to other categories of students or to other colleges?

I believe examinations came to be regarded as old fashioned, and were abandoned by other English institutions, such as the Inns of Court, after the middle ages and were not reinstated until late in the nineteenth century. I also have the impression (which may be mistaken) that doctorates (such as LLD, DD, LittD, etc) were normally awarded without thesis or examination (i.e. as honorary degrees) until recent times. Does anyone know when examinations became the norm before the award of Cambridge degrees? NRPanikker 22:49, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

In 18th and early 19th century Cambridge, most students did not take an honours degree (in the sole Tripos of Mathematics), but instead took the ordinary degree. These "poll men" (from "hoi poloi") did not have an examination at the end of their degree (though there might a been a cursory "disputation" - a relic of when logical disputations formed the basis of education). There was, however, an examination of their knowledge of Greek and Latin in their 2nd year (known as the "Previous Examination"). The Mathematical Tripos, taken by the keener students, was originally examined by all of the students writing down answers to dictated questions. Lasting all day for several days, the weaker students were gradually eliminated. The strongest students were eventually whittled down, to form a list of all students in rank order, the top student being known as the Senior Wrangler. Over time, the dictated questions were replaced by written examinations. Even later Triposes were formed in other subjects and, by the start of the 20th century, the examination process was more-or-less familiar. Rouse Ball wrote a History of Mathematics at Cambridge University. The book is available via Google Books, if you want more details about how the mathematical tripos started. Bluap 02:48, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

I have copied the above from the University of Cambridge talk page. Can the ordinary BA still be obtained without examination? Does it also lead on to an MA? NRPanikker 22:32, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

No, the ordinary BA cannot be obtained (any more, if it ever could) without passing an examination. It can, however, be obtained by passing an examination with a result that satifies the standard required for a "pass degree" but does not satisfy the (considerably more onerous) honours standard. The BA degree thus obtained can be converted into an MA degree at the appropriate time just like any other Oxbridge BA.--136.8.150.6 (talk) 11:00, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

A little digging reveals that students at New College, Oxford, and King's College, Cambridge, were exempt from the BA and (former) MA examinations until 1834 and 1851, respectively. They still had to pass their own college's tests to be allowed to remain in residence for enough years. The next question that arises is whether students at these colleges could additionally purchase exemption from the college examinations by claiming privilege of nobility (and paying four times the normal fees) or as a gentleman commoner or fellow-commoner (paying double fees). NRPanikker (talk) 15:20, 21 March 2019 (UTC) NRPanikker (talk) 10:55, 22 March 2019 (UTC)

Senior Status

According to the Dean of Degrees of my college a BA or BFA who held senior status during his or her period as an undergraduate may incept as an MA during or after the eighteenth term from matriculation. I haven't yet found the authoritative text for this but it is clearly out there to be found. This should be added to the article.--Oxonian2006 (talk) 16:07, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

"Not a real MA"

Someone has made the point that holders don't put "MA (Oxon)" (etc) after their names to emphasise that "It's not a real MA." I wonder where in the world it could be a disadvantage to say you went to Oxford, even if your colleagues do have real higher degrees? NRPanikker (talk) 16:55, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

To most of the public in the UK "MA (Oxon)" after one's name says "I took my degree at Oxford", in the same manner that "MA (Lond)" says "I took my degree at London", not "I don't have a 'real MA' and want to make that clear". There's a lot of reverse snobbery in the UK - "public school, Oxbridge educated" is the shorthand term for "member of the traditional elite group in society". Whatever the realities of Oxford there are many graduates who prefer not to shout about it in some circumstances where being seen as "ordinary" is more advantageous. Timrollpickering (talk) 17:37, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

How strange! I love to shout out that I have a degree from Oxford! Hurrah for The Establishment! I'm part of it and proud! Ooh, are those Oxford cufflinks?!--194.80.206.93 (talk) 16:07, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

The quote on this page says otherwise:

Oxford University maintains that there should be no confusion between its MA and those awarded at other universities for postgraduate work because of the use of the title MA (Oxon) which clearly distinguishes the two

Which seems to suggest that Oxford at least considers that putting (Oxon) after the end of the 'MA' does serve (at least in part) to emphasise that it doesn't denote a proper postgraduate qualification. I've put a [citation needed] after the claim, if one isn't added soon, I'll remove the claim (and possibly include the claim that the '(Oxon)' qualification does, in part, serve to highlight the difference) 81.23.56.53 (talk) 21:29, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

The MA from Oxford and Cambridge is not actually a degree. You graduate BA and then 21 terms after matriculation, send them £10 and they send you an MA in the post! It allows you to walk across the grass in the quad (instead of round the periphery), sit at a table with the other "Masters" when eating dinner and allows you to vote in the college convocation. However it 'appears' like its a degree and causes much confusion, and some would say (though I could not possibly comment), fraudulent, since it mis-represents one achievements. Every so often it comes up in parliament, where some MP's try to get it banned, but since a lot of MP's have studied PPE (politics, philosophy and economics) at Oxford, the bill usually gets sabotaged and the (some would say) fraud continues. Its part of the lies (some would say) that are at the heart of the British Establishment. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.170.131.21 (talk) 13:49, 20 December 2012 (UTC)

This is almost completely incorrect. Read the History and rationale section for a full account of the actual historical origin of this degree. -- Nicholas Jackson (talk) 14:31, 21 December 2012 (UTC)

• Indeed. it is not a separate degree but a conversion of the BA into an MA. At the end of the day you still have one degree, not two as some people think. If it is not 'real' then does that mean the person didn't spend 3 years reading for a degree then? Does incepting as MA automatically cancel out his degree into nothingness? Surely the proof is in the transcripts and whether they read their degree and not on the relative nature of degree titles. Even in other places in the world there is inconsistency in degree titles and what they stand for. E.g. medical doctors in the Commonwealth countries hold the MB BCh which isn't a doctorate so technically they shouldn't be using the title Dr anyway but use it because it is a courtesy title. --Charlie Huang 【遯卋山人】 00:11, 20 March 2013 (UTC)

There seems to be a complete failure throughout the article, and the comments on this page, to understand that because the conversion from BA to MA takes place 4 years after graduating (not immediately) it recognises that the former Oxbridge BA graduate now has 4 years of worldly experience on top of their academic qualification. For most Oxbridge graduates, and for many employers, the combination of an Oxbridge BA plus 4 years experience is just as valuable, or more so, than another university's BA/BSc plus MA/MSc, so the conversion to MA is perfectly justifiable and calling the tradition fraudulent is nonsense. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.135.14.167 (talk) 15:28, 4 April 2017 (UTC)

Nah. It is fraud. 173.62.3.22 (talk) 17:23, 16 June 2023 (UTC)

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Awarded separately

The article states that "the Master of Arts degree is not awarded separately". This is unclear. An Oxford graduate goes to a degree ceremony to be awarded the BA and then some years later goes to another degree ceremony to be awarded the MA degree. However, apart from that, one does not have to anything else to move from BA to MA.--Bduke (talk) 10:31, 30 November 2020 (UTC)