Talk:Matthew Webb/GA2

GA Review

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Nominator: It is a wonderful world (talk · contribs) 22:33, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

Reviewer: Rollinginhisgrave (talk · contribs) 07:08, 1 October 2024 (UTC)

Saving my spot for when you're ready for me to review. Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 07:08, 1 October 2024 (UTC)

Rollinginhisgrave (talk · contribs) I have finished addressing points. It's ready to review! It is a wonderful world (talk) 09:47, 1 October 2024 (UTC)

It is a wonderful world Once you finish the tagging of images with PD and the dates I can pass this! Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 08:32, 4 October 2024 (UTC)

Done! It is a wonderful world (talk) 10:49, 4 October 2024 (UTC)

Prose and content

• latter feat refer to this as an act for neutrality

Fixed

• but rather as a medical

Fixed

• Generally avoid one paragraph long sections, you can just remove the subheading "Training on the Conway"

Fixed

• Hong Kong again what is "again" doing here?

Because his first voyage was also to Singapore and Hong Kong. I removed the sentence though since it's unnecessary and confusing.

• link Prize money to purse

Done

• his daring attempted rescue

Done

• doubted Webb would swim the channel attempt or succeed?

Attempt, clarified

• paddled is there a reason you refer to Boyton's swimming as "paddling"?

Yes, he used a suit with a paddle which he would use to paddle feet first on his back. Do you think I should mention this?

• journey Dover to Ramsgate journey from

Fixed

• weather, and remove comma, WP:CINS

Fixed

• Preparations and first attempt

Fixed

• captain Pittock capitalise captain for title

Fixed

• swim—and John Graham Chambers why the dash?

The double em-dash was used to set "who joined Webb in the water for parts of the swim" as an aside. Do you think I should replace them with commas or parentheses, or restructure the sentence?

Just commas. You can use double em-dash, but it should be used throughout for consistency.

Fixed

• at a rate of 25 strokes per minute

Fixed

• but did not deter him after he had a shot of brandy but he continued after; more neutral

Done

• the Toms

Fixed

• August 25 dmy

Fixed

• and later slept in the Hotel

Fixed

• Webb had a temperature of 38 °C add "after his swim" to the start, as this is a new section about reception; signposting

Fixed

• According to Saloon, replace "salon"

Replaced with "saloon", there doesn't appear to be a specific word for a saloon on a passenger ship

• People in Wellington expected his arrival, so cut

Replaced with "In Wellington,"

• where people welcomed him could you explain what this means?

I cut this out, meaning the sentence now reads: "In Wellington, a crowd brought his carriage to Ironbridge, where the Mayor of Wenlock greeted him"

• Lord Mayor of London links to a disambiguation page (you can see these by going into preferences and tick "Display links to disambiguation pages in orange")

Changed preference and fixed. This is useful!

• , then returned to Dover where he and Toms reunited with the crew for dinner cut

Done

• Webb received gifts, including gold cuff links and collar studs, a gold watch, a North London Swimming Club gold cross, a solitaire, a silver cup and a jewelled tie pin. too many gifts listed. Can cut some out.

Cut to three remaining

• The autopsy revealed that the cut occurred after his death left behind by an earlier draft

Fixed

• and blamed the railway companies blamed for the death or criticised them

Blamed for his death, fixed

• In 1909 a postcard produced by a photography firm in Dawley depicted a pig on a wall watching Webb's post-channel procession go by. indicate why this is notable / worth mentioning

Changed to "In 1909 a postcard produced by a photography firm in Dawley depicted the legend of a pig lifting its hind legs onto a wall, to watch Webb's post-channel procession go by." The Shropshire Star also mentions a court case disputing the rights to this postcard, do you think that is also worth mentioning?

I don't think so, it's more important to mention "and this is famous" or something to assert why it's not just a random postcard.

I added "In 2017, the postcard was used in a creative writing contest for children in Shropshire".

I don't think that establishes notability or relevance. Is there a different way you can put this?

I couldn't find a way to increase its relevance, so I removed it.

• The legacy section really doesn't need subheadings and a lot can be merged into one paragraph.

Done

• Cultural references sections are generally discouraged on Wikipedia (see MOS:CULTURALREFS). The Peter Sellers ref should be cut. The rest can be merged into the legacy section.

Done

• Death in Niagara Rapids

Fixed

• Webb said he wanted to inspire more people this sentence reads awkwardly

Removed "said he"

Suggestions

• diving underwater and cutting it with a knife cutting it free

Removed "with a knife". The diving underwater part is what makes this note-worthy in my opinion. I also don't think the word "free" needs to be repeated.

• Link knots

Linked

• £2,424 (about £290,000 today) MOS:DATED, instead of using a source's inflation calculation, you can use template:inflation. Same with £100, $1,000 and $4,000

I did use template:inflation

• He planned to start on the east flood tide and catch the current as it turned west,[51] and chose the lugger boat Ann for support—which was captained by George Toms. repetition of "and" reads awkwardly. Why do you use a dash between support and which?

I agree, I split it into two sentences, and replaced the dash with a comma

• ten am MOS:TIME use a template:nbsp in between, and use figures rather than words for ten.

Done, do you think I should just write 10:00? The rest of the article uses 24-hour times, do would it be too ambiguous?

It's not too ambiguous, even 10 am is fine, just so long as it's not ten am.

I changed it to 10:00 for consistency.

Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 12:15, 1 October 2024 (UTC)

Sources

• Is the source number in [1] the page number? When I hover over these it seems like the page is 110-111.

I'm not sure what you mean here. The Seccombe source is pages 104-105. What is the "source number"?

No worries.

• What makes The Adventurous Life and Daring Exploits in England and America of Capt. Matthew Webb a RS? Same with The Channel Feats of Captain Webb and Captain Boyton?

They are both books published by publishers which I could not find any problem with. I understand that some publishers are unreliable, but I could not find any problems with the reliability of these publishers. Is there a way to check publisher reliability?

It's hard to check publisher reliability. But you can kind of just tell reading the sources that they're not neutral and are for a popular audience and tending to hyperbole. Do modern scholars comment on these texts at all? Do any academics use them as references?

Since writing the above I have briefly had a look to see what the academic literature is on the subject of Webb. I can see some discussion in Water Defences: The Arts of Swimming in Nineteenth-Century Culture, which says about the above sources on page 45 "The appearance of penny pamphlets, including Henry Llewellyn Williams' Adventurous Life of Capt. Matthew Webb, with its sensationalist tone ('at first he kept on his way swimming, but abruptly he threw up his arms and without a murmur, far less a cry, was drawn under to his death') suggests not only the esteem with which Webb was held but the growing popularity of the sport itself."

It appears clear they're not RS. Information therein should be attributed, if used at all.

I have removed almost all citations to these sources. I mostly used them because I felt the article was over-reliant on Watson. Nevertheless, removing them had the following two implications:

• I removed the footnote explaining the birthdate error in the Oxford DNB
• I attributed "during the swim, he tried an early form of goggles without a seal, which he called "barnacles", but they did not work" to Dolphin from the Illustrated Sporting and Dramatic News

• Link to internet archive's copy of The Story of Your Life (https://archive.org/details/storyofyourlifeh0000lamb)

Done

Spot check

• [1f] Y
• [15a] N this seems to directly contradict the statement; no swimming was involved in the rescue

I misunderstood the old English of this source at the time. I have removed the mention of swimming in that sentence.

• [30] Y
• [45] Y
• [60a] Y although just say bacon and eggs, I think there will be some historicity issues with when the English breakfast arose

Fixed

• [75] clock this was on page 139

Fixed

• [90a] Y
• [105] Y
• [120] Y
• [135] Y
• [150] Y

Other

• Images appropriately captioned/tagged clock

• Webb in The Illustrated London News, 1883 is PD, not copyrighted

Fixed

• The date on the HMS Conway picture is wrong

I couldn't find the date of this image on the website it was supposedly taken from. I have contacted the owner of the website to see if they know.

I believe it's 1909 based on this. Some alternatives 1800s, 1896

Well found, I changed the date on commons. Not sure why it didn't occur to me just to use another image.

• Stanhope medal PD, not copyrighted

Fixed

• Paul Boyton is PD, not copyrighted

Fixed

• When was the Admiralty Pier, Dover picture published?

I don't know, nor can I figure it out.

"Created between ca 1890 and ca 1900 Detroit Publishing Co. Catalogue J, 1905. Print no. 10293. Views of England" photo uploader link

Well found again. I added the date range to the caption. I didn't change the date on commons because I'm not sure the date field is meant to contain date ranges.

It's fine to change the date to a range on Commons. You can see on my upload of File:Mayan people and chocolate.jpg an example. Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 08:32, 4 October 2024 (UTC)

Changed

• Portrait of Webb in his red swimming trunks on a cigarette box is PD, not copyrighted

Removed

• There are too many pictures, and on my device it's overflowing far into the references section. Some need to be cut or moved.

Removed less significant ones

• Broad / summary style clock I want to see how the article looks after sourcing issues are addressed before I evaluate this.

Y Happy with breadth

• Neutral clock same as above

Y Happy with neutrality

• Stable Y
• No OR / COPYVIO Y 20.6% wp:earwig, paraphrasing okay for closeness

Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 03:38, 2 October 2024 (UTC)