Talk:Meiji era
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![]() | A fact from this article was featured on Wikipedia's Main Page in the On this day section on February 3, 2005, February 3, 2006, February 3, 2007, and February 3, 2008. |
![]() | On 2 October 2022, it was proposed that this article be moved from Meiji (era) to Meiji era. The result of the discussion was moved. |
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[edit] This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 12 January 2021 and 30 April 2021. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): NatalieMoun.
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Miscellaneous
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The sentence, "When finally granted by the emperor as a sign of his sharing his authority and giving rights and liberties to his subjects, the 1889 Constitution of the Empire of Japan (the Meiji Constitution) provided for the Imperial Diet (Teikoku Gikai), composed of a popularly elected House of Representatives with a very limited franchise of male citizens who paid 15 in national taxes, about 1 percent of the population, and the House of Peers, composed of nobility and imperial appointees; and a cabinet responsible to the emperor and independent of the legislature," is confusing because "15" is unclear. Fifteen percent? Why is this only one percent of the population?
- I agree with whoever wrote the above that there seems to be at least one word missing. Should it be "15 yen" or "at least 15 yen" perhaps? --Historian 09:16, Dec 2, 2004 (UTC)
- I have found the source of this quotation on the web here. It does indeed say "¥15" as I thought. I propose that the word "yen" be added to the text. --Historian 05:57, Dec 3, 2004 (UTC)
- And here is the clincher. The Japanese version of wikipedia talks about 15 yen.
See here (in Japanese). So I am going to change the main text and remove the dispute tag. --Historian 10:49, Dec 3, 2004 (UTC)
Era vs period
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I moved the article from Meiji Era to Meiji period, and changed the article accordingly. I don't know which is more correct, but the other periods are called periods on wikipedia and google shows "Meiji period" in slightly wider usage than "era". ~leif ☺ HELO 01:03, Dec 30, 2004 (UTC)
Politics or ideology?
[edit]I'm by no means an expert on Japanese history, but from my reading I find this account a bit uncritical of the actions of the oligarch-politicians of the Meiji era. For example I would argue that to properly deal with the movement for a representative assembly, or the minken popular rights movement, you'd have to deal with how far and for whom 'popular rights' was mainly ploy for achieving political power rather than disinterested idealism. For example, many were easily bought off and coopted into government. The minken movement was temporarily abandoned in April 1874 when these outsiders were extended a carrot of participation.
It should also be made clear that when mainstream Japanese political thinkers at this time talked about giving representation to 'the people', while they might have meant to imply an organic nature and a national destiny in a similar way to the European nationalist tradition, they were politically referring to the shizoku, the noble estate. They often criticised the 'common people' for their ignorance and moral character.
I'd recomend P.Varley, Japanese Culture (New York, 1984)
H.Wray and H.Conroy (eds.), Japan Examined: Perspectives on Modern Japanese History (Honolulu, 1983( --Rich Shore 14:10, 8 Mar 2005 (UTC)
- This complaint is now over 7 years old. Has this issue been satisfactorily resolved? — SMcCandlish Talk⇒ ɖ∘¿¤þ Contrib. 10:46, 23 October 2012 (UTC)
Pictures needed
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As in subject. Can we have some? --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 22:42, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Rewrite
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I tried to add some structure to the text. It looks like we have a lot of information on the founding of government, and fewer to zero information on the rest. Society can barely be called a stub. Art, literature, religion is nonexistant. Foreign relations completely lacks but at least there is a seperate article about it. The Meiji Restoration needs its own section. -- Mkill 17:41, 29 October 2005 (UTC)
- In reference to the foreign relations section, I would like to request that somebody put in how the Japanese reacted and responsed to Christianity in this era. Since Christianity had a strong voice in western powers at this time, it should be included in foreign relations or even have it's own section. However i don't know if it's even mentioned in this article.
Era beginning
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Did the era begin in 1867, or 1868? This article contradicts itself. Brutannica 23:41, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
Requested move
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- The following is a closed discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the proposal was
- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the debate was no consensus. Patstuarttalk|edits 04:17, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
- Meiji period → Meiji era —(Discuss)— A Japanese era (年号 nengō) is a way to announce dates in Japan. A period (時代 jidai) is a long period of time (more than one hundred years long) like, for example, what we call "Middle Age" or "Renaissance" in Europe. Meiji is an era, coinciding with the reign of Emperor Meiji, not a period. —Švitrigaila 16:33, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
Survey
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Survey - Support votes[edit]
Survey - Oppose votes[edit]
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Discussion
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- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.
After the vote...
[edit]Excuse me to answer so late. The vote is now closed and it's to late to react, but I must. I strongly supported the move. Meiji is an era (nengō) by definition. And incidentally, it can be considered a period (jidai) too, but only incidentally. ... Švitrigaila 12:58, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
Extended content – Long version
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I strongly supported the move. Meiji is an era (nengō) by definition. And incidentally, it can be considered a period (jidai) too, but only incidentally. A period has no "official" definition. It's a convenience used by some historians. Some will use post-1868 eras as periods, others won't. A far better way to draw periods in Japan history since 1868 is to consider two periods: the period of the Empire of Japan (corresponding exactly to what is discribed in the article Empire of Japan, 1867-1945) an the Contemporary period (1945-now). Sometimes Meiji is considered a period. But that period doesn't always coincide with the Meiji era. The so-called "Meiji period" runs from 1867 to 1945, while Meiji era runs from 1868 to 1912. And this article is about Meiji era. The article Meiji Era was renamed into Meiji Period by imitation of the Japanese Template ja:Template:日本の歴史, which calls Meiji and the following eras "periods" (時代), contradicting the Japanese article ja:明治 itself which call Meiji an "era name" (年号). Someone said on the discussion there exist a Taishō period, a Shōwa period and a Heisei period too. If the present emperor died today and if his son died three days later, would Wikipedia call the son's three day reign era a "period"? Nobody would, and Wikipedia would be the only source to do it! That's simply a mistake. Those names are era names. You can call them "periods" if you want, but they are basically, fundamentally, before everything else, by definition era names. In the same way, you know Pluto is by definition a "dwarf planet", not a "planet". You have the right to call it a "planet" if you want. But the role of an up to date encyclopedia is to call it a "dwarf planet", and not to pretend "Yes, it's a dwarf planet, but a lot of people are used to call it a "planet" and since the majority rules, Wikipedia will still call it a "planet" until a survey shows a majority to call it a "dwarf planet"!" Or else: "Yes, a tomato is by scientific difinition a plant, or the fruit of that plant, but since most people consider it a "vegetable", Wikipedia being democratic has to define it a "vegetable" first." The same goes for the Japanese era names. "Era names" are what Meiji, Taishō, Shōwa and Heisei are. "Periods" are what some historians, some books, not all of them, by convenience only, call them in popularization works. This question must not be the issue of a vote! It's a fact. It is a very serious drift on Wikipedia I meet more and more often: in one hand there are facts, in the other hand there are approximations, popularization conveniences, received ideas. The rule of an encyclopedia is to give facts. Not to organise a survey in which people say: "Yes we know that factually Meiji is an era name, but since some people call it a "period" by convenience, it must be called a period". This preference given to conveniences and received ideas upon scientific facts is spread on Wikipedia and very worrying for an encyclopedia pretending to be serious. Švitrigaila 12:58, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
Švitrigaila, I think we've already established that you have no idea what you are talking about here. To demonstrate it (again), please give me one remotely credible source that leads you to believe that the "Meiji period" runs from 1868 to 1945. That is absolute nonsense. The only division that would give you that time period is if you took Japan's modern period (which would be from 1868 on) and divided it into pre- and post-war. And if you think that "Meiji period" is merely a convenience, and contrary to "fact", please explain the following entry from my 2,200 some page Kōjien Dictionary of Japanese History, published by Yamakawa Publishing: "めいじじだい【明治時代】明治と改元された一八六八年一〇月二三日(慶応四年九月八日)から一九一二年七月三〇日、明治天皇の死去により大正と改元されるまでの四四年余り。一般には一八六八年一月一日以降を明治時代とよんでいる・・・" And your hypothetical about the emperor who lives for 3 days merely demonstrates that historians would have to come up with something else, like classifying the three day period as a part of the period before it, in such an unlikely scenario. It says nothing about what historians currently actually use to refer to the actual period of Emperor Meiji's reign, which actually lasted for 44 years and saw some of the most profound changes in Japan's history. Several hundred years from now, historians may lump several of these more modern periods together under a larger grouping. And if Wikipedia is still around then, someone will rename the articles appropriately. For now, historians refer to these chunks of time as periods. Period.-Jefu 16:52, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
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- Agreed. we've already wasted enough time on this, and there is even a vote on the subject that has concluded. You have said a lot about the concept of periods in general but nothing at all about the practice in question. Although the term Meiji era exists, and is used in some contexts, when historians divide Japanese into periods the overwhelming convention is to use "Meiji period" for the period immediately following rule by the Tokugawa shogunate between 1868 and 1912, even though it also happens to be an era. Let it go already, and let's all move on to something more useful.-Jefu 23:12, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
Education
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Is there room for a paragraph on the introduction of compulsory education, or is the matter dealt with more fully on another page?andycjp (talk) 11:53, 23 March 2009 (UTC)
- This should go in the section-stub called "Society". — SMcCandlish Talk⇒ ɖ∘¿¤þ Contrib. 10:13, 23 October 2012 (UTC)
Meiji era in popular culture
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How about one of these sections? It would be interesting to see a list of works set in the Meiji era. --217.76.87.120 (talk) 11:29, 8 August 2009 (UTC)
- Um, no, it wouldn't. That's not what Wikipedia is for. And "a list of works" isn't even what "In popular culture" sections are for (they are for concise annotation of some exemplary and genuinely notable cases of influence of the subject on popular culture, and not all articles here, by any means, need such a section. — SMcCandlish Talk⇒ ɖ∘¿¤þ Contrib. 10:30, 23 October 2012 (UTC)
Rurouni Kenshin
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Why is this listed in the "See Also" section? From what I know about it it's simply a manga that has some historical underpinnings. If a popular culture section is included then this would be pertinent, but it is not another historical source of information. Looking for input as to why this is listed. Robin.dave (talk) 19:51, 1 May 2010 (UTC)
- I removed it, as it is not appropriate for the "See also" section, and borders on spammy/promotional. If we listed every piece of fiction set roughly in this period, we'd have thousands of entries in the "See also" section. — SMcCandlish Talk⇒ ɖ∘¿¤þ Contrib. 10:13, 23 October 2012 (UTC)
Arts and humanities
[edit]This article is missing all information about the insanely influential Meiji period art, which (through influencing Art Nouveau almost as much as Arts and Crafts did) helped define modernity in art and design. It was also, in turn, reflexively influenced by Nouveau and, later, early Art Deco. The "Society" section is also devoid of all other humanties information – literature, philosophy, poetry, music, film and other arts, education, etc. Given the enormous impact of Meiji art, and the intensive cross-polination it represents between East and West, the omission borders on the absurd. — SMcCandlish Talk⇒ ɖ∘¿¤þ Contrib. 10:13, 23 October 2012 (UTC)
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Move discussion in progress
[edit]There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Reiwa period which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 03:20, 14 April 2019 (UTC)
Conversion table
[edit]Presently in the article there is a section headed "Conversion table" containing "To convert any Gregorian calendar year between 1868 and 1912 to Japanese calendar year in Meiji era, 1867 needs to be subtracted from the year in question." and a table that maps years of the Meiji era to AD years. It seems to me that the instruction to subtract 1867 from the number gives all the information necessary, and the reader doesn't need to be shown what happens for each number from 1868 to 1912 what happens when you subtract 1867 from it. This is already a long article, it could be much longer, and it doesn't need a lot of space given to this one piece of information. The sentence explaining the conversion could go early in the article and there would be no need for a table or a dedicated section. I welcome other input on what should happen to the table. MartinPoulter (talk) 15:21, 21 May 2020 (UTC)
- I'm removing it from the article. If anyone wants it replaced, please continue the discussion here. MartinPoulter (talk) 10:53, 6 June 2020 (UTC)
Requested move 2 October 2022
[edit]- The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
The result of the move request was: moved. (closed by non-admin page mover) – robertsky (talk) 16:25, 9 October 2022 (UTC)
Meiji (era) → Meiji era – Natural disambiguation is preferred. Interstellarity (talk) 15:04, 2 October 2022 (UTC)
- Support per nom. -- Necrothesp (talk) 12:37, 6 October 2022 (UTC)
- Support – Mehedi Abedin 10:40, 7 October 2022 (UTC)
- Support. Per nominator, this seems to fit best due to WP:RECOGNIZABILITY and WP:NATURALNESS. Pilaz (talk) 15:23, 8 October 2022 (UTC)
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