Talk:Metaphysics

Changes to the article

I was thinking about implementing changes to this article with the hope of moving it in the direction of GA status. There is still a lot to do since many passages and several full subsections lack sources and the article has various maintenance tags (1x More citations needed section, 2x Unreferenced section, 4x citation needed, 2x page needed). The section "Epistemological foundation" has a WP:NPOV problem since there are many metaphysical methodologies and the deductive approach is not the only one. It could also be expanded to cover the methodology of metaphysics more generally rather than just focusing on epistemological foundations.

The section "History" is very long and encompasses a total of 17 subsections. Since we don't have an article "History of metaphysics", this section could be split off into its own article and replaced with a concise summary of the most important points with a main-template pointing to the main article, see WP:SUMMARYSTYLE. The discussion of the main topics in metaphysics is split into two sections: "Central questions" and "Peripheral questions". As far as I'm aware, this division is not found in the reliable sources and it might be better to have a common section by rearranging the topics. An important omission from this selection of topics is the problem of universals (and possibly also mereology). I was also thinking about having a short explanation somewhere of how metaphysics has been divided into branches, such as the old contrast between general metaphysics and special/specific metaphysics, and things like applied metaphysics and metametaphysics. This discussion should probably be brief to avoid having too much overlap with the section(s) discussing the topics. Some of these branches are already discussed individually so they could be rearranged to a common place.

Various smaller adjustments would be needed but they can be addressed later since the ones mentioned so far would already involve a lot of work to implement. I was hoping to get some feedback on these ideas and possibly other suggestions. I still have to do some research to work out the details. After that, I would start implementing them one at a time but it will probably take a while to address all the points. Phlsph7 (talk) 10:01, 6 March 2024 (UTC)

As a general remark I think the article is looking better than a lot of our philosophy articles. I am wondering if something should be added to the lede concerning the problems/criticisms in modern science, and even modern philosophy, which are discussed in the article.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 08:33, 6 April 2024 (UTC)

@Andrew Lancaster: Thanks for the feedback. I agree that the lead needs some work since it currently does not summarize several parts of the article. I usually try to fix the body of the article first before moving on to the lead. This might be another week or two before I get to it but hopefully not too long. I'll make sure to include something about the criticisms as well. Phlsph7 (talk) 10:37, 6 April 2024 (UTC)

On the rationalists

Several of these articles are well done and I'd like to invite these editors to edit the analytic philosophy page as well. That said, it seems to me Leibniz especially so, but Descartes also, follow a kind of idealism in their metaphysics. Thomas Reid calls Descartes to Kant i. e. modern philosophy "the way of ideas" for that reason, or for a representationalism entailing idealism. John Searle has the same attitude. The Cogito very much ushers in the age of idealism, by saying we are ultimately mind rather than our bodies. In other words, Cartesianism is a kind of idealism. It's not called "French idealism", but it could be, just as there is German idealism and British idealism after it. There are also idealists who happen to be German or British, but who fit more with the tradition of Leibniz, and so like him aren't classed with their countrymen, such as George Boole. More over, it's just a fact that the rationalism/empiricism dispute is an epistemological one, not a metaphysical one. Berkeley shows quite clearly how empiricism doesn't entail materialism, nor does rationalism entail idealism. "A rationalist system of metaphysics" sounds like a category error, and it certainly isn't wrong to say modern period = idealist metaphysics. Maybe replace "rationalist" with "Cartesian"? Then again, those like Berkeley aren't Cartesian or Hegelian, but certainly an idealist. And the lede might not want to explain "Cartesian". Cake (talk) 06:55, 28 April 2024 (UTC)

Hello MisterCake and thanks for your help with this article and the suggestions. As I understand it, the issue is with the following sentence in the lead: The modern period saw the emergence of many rationalist and idealist systems of metaphysics. The problem is whether it should mention the term "rationalist" or just talk about idealist systems of philosophy. The expression "idealists systems" was meant to refer primarily to German and British idealism in the 19th century while the expression "rationalist systems" was meant to refer primarily to earlier systems by Descartes, Leibniz, and Spinoza.

Technically, I think the expression is correct. For instance, [1] has a whole section dedicted to "rationalist metaphysics" and explicitly links the term to Descartes, Leibniz, and Spinoza. For other examples, see [2] and [3]. But just because the term is correct does not mean that we need to use it and maybe there is a way to avoid the connotations that you are concerned about. The problem I see with using just "idealist" is that it excludes Decartes, who is a dualist, and Spinoza. One alternative would be to instead use the sentence In the modern period, rationalists and idealists developed comprehensive systems of metaphysics. By applying the term "rationalist" to the authors, we do not directly state that their systems are rationalist. Another alternative could be The modern period saw the emergence of various comprehensive systems of metaphysics, many of which embraced idealism. This way, it's clear that not all of them were idealist. Phlsph7 (talk) 11:29, 28 April 2024 (UTC)

If it's used in books then that seems to settle it. Talk of rationalist philosophers rather than rationalist metaphysics seems another way to do it. "Rationalist metaphysics" seems to me similar to saying "a priori metaphysics", which Kripke and others emphasize is a kind of confusing of epistemic and metaphysical. It reads as if rationalism and idealism are some contrasting dichotomy. Your own source (the page 35) notes the importance of Descartes for German idealism. While of course he is a dualist, he also seems to view mind as supreme over matter. It just seems to me French idealism was first, seen in the French influence on Leibniz and Hume, and is called Cartesianism rather than French idealism. So I do think In the modern period, Cartesians and idealists developed comprehensive systems of metaphysics. would at least be accurate, and is what is meant by rationalist metaphysics. Though that reads weird as Cartesian is a kind of idealist, I submit. By idealist you mean Kantian idealist. Kant called Descartes a "problematic idealist." Hence I opted for the simpler In the modern period, idealists... Cake (talk) 11:50, 28 April 2024 (UTC)

Put another way, it wants to say In the modern period, Cartesians and Kantians (or Hegelians) developed comprehensive systems of metaphysics. But nobody will understand the namedropping, so In the modern period, problematic idealists and transcendental/absolute idealists developed comprehensive systems of metaphysics but that's too much complicated Kant jargon, so just ...idealists...Cake (talk) 12:19, 28 April 2024 (UTC)

Your last comment does a great job at highlighting the difficulty involved. I implemented one of the suggestions above; it seems to be closest to your idea of emphasizing idealism while avoiding the reference to rationalism. Phlsph7 (talk) 07:53, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

A little longwinded now but I appreciate the accuracy. Maybe one could add Russell and Moore's "revolt against idealism" to the article. Also, not sure where to put it, perhaps in the "particulars" section, but it seems the article could use a mention of P. F. Strawson and his distinction between "descriptive" and "revisionary" metaphysics. Cake (talk) 09:15, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

PS As well as the Aristotle quote "being qua being" or "being as such" there is also his quote from Book IV that metaphysics studies that which no "special science" studies, arguably as famous. Cake (talk) 09:25, 29 April 2024 (UTC)