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Guidelines for referring to someone as 'convicted felon'[edit]
I would like to know the actual guidelines for categorizing someone as a "convicted felon" in the lede of the article. There are many, many convicted felons who have wikipedia articles, but most are not categorized as "convicted felons" in the ledes.
It took me less than 5 seconds to think of Tim Allen, who, surprise, is not categorized as a "convicted felon" in the lede of his article.
When and why should someone's status as a felon be included in the lede of an article? Nonto4567 (talk) 16:23, 18 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
IMO, the two-word lead phrase "convicted felon" as in "Michael Cohen is an American lawyer and convicted felon..." should never be used. It is a loaded phrase providing no context that biases the reader against the subject of the article. It is also, in most cases, not what made subject notable. Cohen was notable as Trump's attorney before he was a felon. The lead should instead note that the subject was convicted of a felony, with sufficient context, outside of the opening sentence. – Muboshgu (talk) 16:28, 18 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
This has been discussed many, many, many times in the past and is both inappropriate and selectively used. Reverted. FakeAlvinT (talk) 19:45, 18 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Having "criminal status" in the sidebar was also discussed and considered inappropriate in the past. I'm inclined to leave that in for now because it is relevant to events that are still topical and noteworthy. FakeAlvinT (talk) 20:03, 18 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Revert edits where it is difficult to determine what has changed[edit]
I've noticed a tactic which is becoming increasingly common among those who wish to slip in changes to an article which are likely to be disputed: they tweak the formatting of large chunks of the article to make it difficult to scan for the actual changes. Recently this article has had edits with diffs in excess of 180k, which is difficult and time consuming to verify.
Since this article has a history of contentious edits, I suggest summarily rejecting edits where it's not readily obvious what has changed. FakeAlvinT (talk) 15:26, 23 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
A bot will list this discussion on requested moves' current discussions subpage within an hour of this tag being placed. The discussion may be closed 7 days after being opened, if consensus has been reached (see the closing instructions). Please base arguments on article title policy, and keep discussion succinct and civil.
Oppose Unnecessary disambiguation to a POV title for a contentious BLP, against WP:NPOVTITLE. Never mind the fact that he remains a lawyer even though he's disbarred. A lawyer is someone with a JD. An attorney is someone licensed to practice law.[1] – Muboshgu (talk) 15:09, 10 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
(1) Per Lawyer, sentence 1 says "A lawyer is a person who practices law." Having lost his license, Cohen does not practice law, er go, he is not a "lawyer". Unless you have RSs, your reasoning seems factually flawed, and lacking RSs to change my mind, I hope the closer discounts your reasoning.
(2) In addition, if such RSs do not exist, then crediting Cohen with the profession "lawyer" when he is not is the actual POV problem.
(3) Meanwhile, a superficial google search ("Is a disbarred attorney still a lawyer?") led to this... "A lawyer (also called attorney, counsel, or counselor) is a licensed professional who advises and represents others in legal matters." "What is a lawyer?", American Bar Association
I see it both ways. Even if lawyer and attorney are synonyms, that doesn't address the BLP issue of putting a negative term such as "disbarred" in an article title. – Muboshgu (talk) 18:05, 10 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I did not know about him. There are better ways to handle PDAB than biasing readers against a subject in the article title. This Michael Cohen might be the primary topic. – Muboshgu (talk) 15:47, 10 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Why is it any more biasing to say that in the title that it is in the lead? * Pppery *it has begun... 15:59, 10 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I didn't say it is. It's also biasing to put it in the lead and I've been working to remove negative terms like "convicted felon" from article leads. – Muboshgu (talk) 18:06, 10 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
At the time I made that comment the lead started with "Michael Dean Cohen (born August 25, 1966) is an American disbarred former lawyer". I didn't look closely enough to see that that change was an undiscussed month-old addition by an IP which you've now reverted. * Pppery *it has begun... 20:08, 10 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose see comment by Muboshgu. --Denniss (talk) 16:17, 10 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose, as the title indicates the subject's basis of notability rather than their current practice status (it would be absurd for us to have to check all of the tens of thousands of lawyers in the encyclopedia to update those whose licensure has lapsed, whether due to disbarment, retirement, or death); leaning oppose moving to the primary topic title, as this would be WP:RECENTISM, and the subject is no more than a flash in the pan for historical importance. If this needs to be moved for further disambiguation, it should be moved to Michael Cohen (Trump lawyer), as this as entirely the basis of the subject's notability. BD2412T 18:06, 10 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Fine with (Trump lawyer). Haven't looked closely enough to see whether moving to the base name is warranted, but if that's what the consensus ends up being I'm not opposed. * Pppery *it has begun... 20:08, 10 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Mixed: Part of the problem is that someone removed information (his middle name) from the title that already served to disambiguate. The purpose of the parenthetical (lawyer) is to help identity the subject of the article, but in this case, we have two lawyers.
I suggest that we change the title to "Michael D. Cohen" and leave the hatnote pointing to "Michael H. Cohen". This would match the way we are handling the situation from the other direction, as "Michael H. Cohen" has a hatnote to "Michael D. Cohen" • Bobsd • (talk) 21:20, 10 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, use his middle initial, and also add (Trump lawyer). -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 21:29, 10 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I just spent time looking up lawyer vs. attorney vs. having a JD with or without passing the bar vs. which state you are in, plus the aspect of if you are from a foreign country (and a lawyer there) can you still call yourself a lawyer here. What a total mess. So it depends on if the parenthetical is supposed to be accurate and current, or just informative. And I agree with BD2412, that we should not have to keep articles up to date regarding current licensing. To your suggestion, as far as saying "Trump lawyer", he is not anymore, in the same way as being a "practicing lawyer" anymore. If it does not have to be "current" then I would just leave "lawyer" since that is what his profession is/was and he is known for, IMO • Bobsd • (talk) 21:51, 10 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
There can be a couple things done here but Michael Cohen (disbarred lawyer) is not one of them. Michael Cohen (Trump lawyer) is fine or simply Michael D. Cohen (lawyer). Iamreallygoodatcheckers talk 01:57, 11 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Of Note: Regardless of what we decide, there is another current issue: The current Michael D. Cohen a disambiguation page (thanks for pointing this out * Pppery *) has this gem ...
Michael D. Cohen may refer to:
Michael D. Cohen (academic) (1945–2013), professor of complex systems, information and public policy at the University of Michigan
Michael D. Cohen (actor) (born 1975), Canadian actor
Michael Cohen (lawyer) (Michael Dean Cohen), American disbarred lawyer, an attorney for U.S. president Donald Trump
There is no way that someone searching for Michael D. Cohen (with the middle initial) should be redirected to "Michael Cohen (lawyer)" with a parenthetical (synonymous with) that ties together Michael Dean Cohen with Michael Cohen (lawyer). Poor Michael D. (sigh) • Bobsd • (talk) 02:50, 11 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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