Talk:Minnie Pwerle

Links to commercial galleries

People regularly attach links to commercial galleries selling the works of Australian Indigenous artists to the WP entries about these artists. As a rule, this is not consistent with WP policy. Unless someone wants to come up with a compelling argument otherwise, I will continue to edit these links out of pages such as that for M Pwerle. For an outline of the policy see: Links to be avoided Please discuss here if you think this isn't the right approach. hamiltonstone 09:06, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

Pronunciation guidance

I've removed the guidance on pronunciation of Atnwengerrp ' (pronounced a-NOONG-a-pa)' as it really isn't accurate -- where did it come from? I'm not sure it's a good idea to try to give pronunciations of words which contain sounds (or sequences of sounds) which are going to be entirely new to English speakers -- a more accurate one would be 'a-tnoo-ngurrp' but I doubt it helps much. I'll try to put an IPA representation there. It would also be good to have an audio file of a native speaker saying it, but that might be difficult to obtain. Anyway I'm afraid there's no way around it, people who are unfamiliar with Arandic languages are going to find it difficult or impossible to pronounce, much as with Emily Kngwarreye's name. Dougg (talk) 08:30, 3 July 2009 (UTC)

Though now I think of it, orthography info at the Anmatyerre and Alyawarr language pages (with a link from difficult words like this one) wouldn't hurt. Dougg (talk) 08:34, 3 July 2009 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Minnie Pwerle/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: BelovedFreak 22:06, 14 July 2010 (UTC)

Personal life

• "It is part of a broader region, containing about 20 Indigenous outstations and centred on the Sandover River, known as the Sandover." - I'm not 100% clear; it the river known as the Sandover, or the region. (I'm presuming the region, but perhaps the sentence could be rearranged sightly to avoid ambiguity?)

• Yeah, that was ugly. I remember wrestling with that sentence, but i just fixed it (I think!) quite easily. Don't know why I had found it so difficult. hamiltonstone (talk) 23:59, 14 July 2010 (UTC)

• "McCulloch's Encyclopedia suggests around 1922" - is this part of the title (and therefore should it be in italics?) Or, if not, should encyclopedia have a lower-case "e"?

• Changed to full title. hamiltonstone (talk) 23:54, 14 July 2010 (UTC)

Artistic career

• Any reason for the inconsistency of "50" and "eighty-eight"?

• Think this was a hang-over from when a sentence actually began "Eighty-eight". Fixed now. hamiltonstone (talk) 23:54, 14 July 2010 (UTC)

• Central Australian Aboriginal Media Association could be linked (although admittedly there's not much there)

• Done. hamiltonstone (talk) 23:57, 14 July 2010 (UTC)

• "they do not state whether Minnie was a textile artist before she took up the brush" - doesn't "whether" need an "or not" here? (as in, "whether or not Minnie was a textile artist") I'm unsure of this, and google was no help, but that's just what I thought...

• Probably I was subconsciously avoiding having "not" twice in a phrase, but you are correct, and I have inserted that. hamiltonstone (talk) 23:57, 14 July 2010 (UTC)

• Will carry this on tomorrow, getting too tired!--BelovedFreak 23:20, 14 July 2010 (UTC)

• OK! hamiltonstone (talk) 23:59, 14 July 2010 (UTC)

Right:

• "Minnie was one of the Utopia artists whose style was "radically different from all the other painting communities in the Western Desert..."" - I think this would be better with attribution in the text, saying who or where the quote is from.

• Done. hamiltonstone (talk) 23:41, 15 July 2010 (UTC)

• "Questions were raised about whether she was pressured to paint by others, and whether some of the vast number of paintings traded under her name were created by her at all." - is there any more info on this? Who raised the questions, was there any legal action or anything? (I am presuming for things like this that you've added what you can as you are thorough in your use of sources. Just checking though!)

• Reasonable question. The two currently-cited sources have the following: "One of Mbantua's artists, the late Minnie Pwerle, is often cited as someone whose works are open to forgery." (Lacey)
  "One shop in Todd Mall, the main street in Alice Springs, displays what it claims are works by a Utopia artist, Minnie Pwerle, in its front window. They are fakes. Since Minnie died last year, her paintings have shot up in value, prompting a thriving trade in copies. "Minnie must still be painting in heaven, judging by the number of new Minnies around," says one Sydney dealer. Inside the gallery, the owner produces "certificates of authenticity" for the Minnie paintings. They are meaningless documents, easily forged. Asked what year the works were painted, she shrugs. "We don't worry about that sort of thing," she says. Some in the art world believe Minnie's work may end up fetching as much as Emily's. Both women started painting at a very advanced age. A few years ago an urban dealer tried to abduct Minnie, in order to get her to paint for him. Her daughter, Barbara Weir, also a highly successful artist, found the pair at Alice Springs airport." (Marks)
  I have resolved the issue at present by changing the sentence to: "In addition to being pressured to paint by others, there were media reports suggesting that some of the vast number of paintings traded under Minnie's name were not created by her at all." hamiltonstone (talk) 23:41, 15 July 2010 (UTC)

• That's absolutely fine. Might be a point worth expanding on at some point if there is available material.--BelovedFreak 12:34, 16 July 2010 (UTC)

Style of painting

• "the Awelye Atnwengerrp dreamings (or Women's Dreaming)" - is Women's Dreaming another term for the Awelye Atnwengerrp dreamings? If so, is it correct that one is plural and the other not?

• Don't know why I had that "s" there - gone. hamiltonstone (talk) 23:50, 15 July 2010 (UTC)

• Is "gestural abstractionism" the same as Action painting? (Gestural abstraction currently links there. If so, could you wikilink it and redirect to action painting?

• I've put in the link, though i'm wondering if Green quite meant that. Still, Pollock was an "action painter", and his work has been likened to Tony Tuckson's, which has been likened to Emily Kngwarreye's, which is closely related to Minnie's... so q.e.d. i guess :-). hamiltonstone (talk) 23:50, 15 July 2010 (UTC)

• "Minnie's paintings include two main design themes ... The second are circular shapes..." - should this be "the second is"?

• Yes, but "is" sounded wrong, so i tried another work around: "The second theme involves circular shapes..."

Legacy

• "Described ... as "a genius", Minnie's paintings were..." - is this right? Were her paintings described as "a genius", or her?

• Indeed. Tweaked. hamiltonstone (talk) 23:59, 15 July 2010 (UTC)

References

• Does the first reference (Toohey) need an accessdate? Or does it not because it's a PDF or something?

• No, access date added. hamiltonstone (talk) 23:59, 15 July 2010 (UTC)

• Consider adding publisher details to your news sources

• I've never seen this done - the newspaper is usually regarded as sufficient - or did you mean in some other context? hamiltonstone (talk) 23:59, 15 July 2010 (UTC)

• This is just something I've picked up from other editors; I thought that we should generally add as much info as we have on sources. I know you're very experienced with FAC reviews, so I'll take your word for it! --BelovedFreak 12:34, 16 July 2010 (UTC)

• ABC News can be wikilinked and shouldn't be in italics

• Done. hamiltonstone (talk) 23:59, 15 July 2010 (UTC)

General

• Consider adding the persondata template.

• Done. hamiltonstone (talk) 00:05, 16 July 2010 (UTC)

GA review (see here for criteria)

1. It is reasonably well written.

   a (prose): b (MoS):

2. It is factually accurate and verifiable.

   a (references): b (citations to reliable sources): c (OR):

3. It is broad in its coverage.

   a (major aspects): b (focused):

4. It follows the neutral point of view policy.

   Fair representation without bias:

5. It is stable.

   No edit wars, etc.:

6. It is illustrated by images, where possible and appropriate.

   a (images are tagged and non-free images have fair use rationales): b (appropriate use with suitable captions):

7. Overall:

   Pass/Fail:

This is pretty much there. I'll put the article on hold, but I'm only really concerned about the grammar points mentioned for the "Style of painting" and "Legacy" sections. Everything else you can take or leave as you like. Another great article on an interesting and important topic.--BelovedFreak 11:03, 15 July 2010 (UTC)

Ok, thanks for making those changes. I'll list the article as a GA now. Well done, and good luck with getting it to FA.--BelovedFreak 12:34, 16 July 2010 (UTC)

Post FA issues

The article was promoted to FA, but in the FA discussion Ucucha raised some issues, which I am reproducing in italics here, since the FA discussion is now archived, and providing some responses.

• If there are so many estimates of her date of birth, why do you only put the c. 1915 one in the lead and the persondata?

• I felt that all of these are estimates and including the various dates in summary locations (such as the lead) would add clutter without really adding valuable information. hamiltonstone (talk) 01:48, 4 August 2010 (UTC)

• I would have put in the lead that Utopia is in the Northern Territory.

• Agreed and done. hamiltonstone (talk) 01:48, 4 August 2010 (UTC)

• An actual normal map would be better than a handwritten one.

• Yes, but I don't know how to create maps, and actually generating one that delineates Utopia station might be quite difficult (not the sort of thing that, eg, Google Maps appears to include). But if there's anyone out there who can make such an improvement, i'd be happy to see it. hamiltonstone (talk) 01:48, 4 August 2010 (UTC)

• Updated map has been added. Summerdrought (talk) 06:05, 4 April 2016 (UTC)

Thanks. hamiltonstone (talk) 01:48, 4 August 2010 (UTC)

Congratulations on the FA and thanks for the diligence in replying to my comments. I'd like to comment again on the first one, though. I agree that we can't put all estimates in the lead and the persondata, but why choose the one you chose? How is it inherently better than another? Perhaps you can put in a range instead. Ucucha 05:36, 4 August 2010 (UTC)

Fair use image

I believe this image currently used in the article needs to be shrunk to meet fair use protocol. Its 2,500 by 2,000 currently. AaronY (talk) 13:37, 26 November 2010 (UTC)

I have shrunk the image. AaronY (talk) 11:31, 27 November 2010 (UTC)

Photo? Where's the photo?

It seems strange that a biography wouldn't have a photo. I've seen photos of Minnie online. Is there some sort of problem? Could I upload a photo under Fair Use?? Mr. Harman (talk) 23:35, 26 November 2010 (UTC)

I'm not aware of any free-use images of her. A fair use image would rely on meeting the fair use criteria. I wasn't sure that it would, but didn't explore that much. Which brings me to the other issue - Indigenous people can be distressed by seeing images of deceased ancestors. I had felt an image wasn't essential to the bio, so I avoided tackling that issue. But if you believe you can satisfy the non-free use criteria and can locate a suitable image, i expect it would be considered acceptable. hamiltonstone (talk) 23:47, 26 November 2010 (UTC)

Thanks! I saw one photo when I did a search. Let me check my time budget.  : ) Mr. Harman (talk) 00:52, 27 November 2010 (UTC)

If there is no free use images than a fair use image can be used. As for distressing Indiginous people, that is irrelevent. The aim of this page is to write the best article possible, not to pander to the sensetivities of different groups. Wikipedia is not censored. Mtaylor848 (talk) 13:09, 29 November 2010 (UTC)

Well, gee, thanks for that thoughtful contribution. The question of censorship is not relevant to this discussion - I suggest you look up a definition of the term. Building a good encyclopedia is our goal - which involves weighing up lots of factors. Incidentally, you seem to have ignored how I ended my post, which indicated that I anticipated that including an image would be considered acceptable. The inclusion of any non-free image will need to meet NFCC#8: "Non-free content is used only if its presence would significantly increase readers' understanding of the topic, and its omission would be detrimental to that understanding." Given that the article makes no reference to the artist's visual appearance, I don't know whether this criterion could be met. Contrast this with the situation at Makinti Napanangka, also an FA about an indigenous artist, and also lacking a photo of the artist, but with text that refers to her "infectious smile" and to her sitting as the subject of a portrait. As Makinti is still alive, non-free image use is ruled out, but in the event that she dies, I think those text references to her appearance would help support inclusion under NFCC#8. Whether editors would choose to do so, bearing in mind Indigenous sensitivities around iamges of the dead, would be up to the community. No-one is going to "censor" it - it would be matter of wiki-community judgement whether it benefitted the encyclopedia more than it cost. It would be helpful if everyone approached the issue with some care and sensitivity. hamiltonstone (talk) 22:00, 29 November 2010 (UTC)

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This article does not say anything about her years on the Grand Ole Opry. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.98.222.33 (talk) 04:34, 6 May 2022 (UTC)