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Talk:Minoan snake goddess figurines/Archive 1

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Archive 1

Bare-breasted

We know that Minoan women went bare-breasted (at least some of the time), so it's questionable if there's overwhelming special cultic significance in the figurine being bare-breasted... AnonMoos (talk) 03:02, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

We don't know that. In fact, we know very little about the Minoans. Most of what we think we know was made up by over-imaginative archaeologists. — Preceding unsigned comment added by MONDARIZ (talk • contribs) 14:32, 18 June 2014 (UTC)
It's a reasonable deduction from artistic depictions (paintings on palace walls, etc.). AnonMoos (talk) 00:36, 19 June 2014 (UTC)

A fake, right? (but probably not this one)

Guys, didn't a Boston University professor recently explain that the Snake Goddess a fake? I'm not sure we should have it as a representation of art of a certain period when it is now believed to have been made recently in Switzerland. SMSpivey (talk) 05:03, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

I'm not sure what you're referring to; it couldn't have been made "recently", since it's been well-known for over a century. It was claimed by a well-respected archaeologist to have been found during an archaeological dig, so there would have to be something more specific and documented than what you've said so far, before it could be included on the article page. The only thing "fake" about the statuette that I'm aware of is that certain feminist spirituality types have projected matriarchal fantasies onto it, which may or may not have any particular relationship to Minoan Crete... AnonMoos (talk) 08:52, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

Source: Peter Jones (classicist), 'Follow the snake goddess to find a famous forger', The Spectator, 20-27 December, 2008. This article is semi-popular and not wholly clear. His source is Kenneth Lapatin,'Mysteries of the Snake Godess' (Jones has 2002, google search has 2003). Jones mentions only 3 reviews, inplying that there may be some problem. Lapatin is assistant curator at the Getty. Jones is referring to a 16.1 cm gold and ivory statuette at Boston, which is apparently the one illustrated. Also in doubt are 'most of the other Cretan snake goddesses not to mention the ivory Boy-gods associated with Evans'. The evidence: There is no providence. Traditionally it came from 'a lady' (or man) who got it from a Cretan immigrant on board a ship, but there was apparently no such ship. In the archives of the American School in Athens, Lapatin found that it came from the archeaologist Richard Seager who passed it to Boston in 1914. Seager got from a 'Mr Jones', who cannot be otherwise identified. The ivory is said to be only 500 years old (Jones is not clear here and could be referring to related statues). The technique for the eyes was not attested before the 4th-2nd centuries BC. There is something odd about the left side of the face which Jones does not properly explain. The suggested forger or dealer is Emile Gillieron and his son who advised Evans on the restoration of the Knosos frescoes. An unnamed employee of Guillieron, who was accused of forgery by a dying accomplice, and who is known to have the right equipment is suggested as the actual maker. Benjamin Trovato (talk) 21:22, 21 March 2009 (UTC)

Not. You seem to be referring to a different sculpture. The one depicted in the article is in the museum of Iraklion, Crete. Enki H. (talk) 05:53, 22 May 2009 (UTC)
The gold and ivory statuette in the Museum of Fine Arts, Boston (gift of Mrs. W. Scott Fitz) has the arms down and forward, and the snakes coiled around the arms, while the most famous snake goddess figurine (as shown in the article) has the arms raised, and the snakes are held loosely in the hands (not coiled around the arms). The Boston statuette also seems to suspiciously show the Edwardian (early 20th century) corseted "sway" posture, while this is absent in File:Snake_Goddess_Crete_1600BC.jpg AnonMoos (talk) 20:56, 22 May 2009 (UTC)
Your information appears to be better than mine. The source I cited was semi-popular. I adjusted the title above.Benjamin Trovato (talk) 22:43, 22 May 2009 (UTC)
The above discussion refers to a previous image which was switched in 12 June 2010. Benjamin Trovato (talk) 01:54, 13 June 2010 (UTC)

Ariadne?

Professor Barry Powell has suggested she was Minoan Crete's Snake Goddess from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ariadne#Ariadne_as_a_goddess_figure Böri (talk) 11:33, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

synthesis

The similarity of the sacral knot with the ankh,or better with the tyet was noticed by Evans and it is explained in the references.In the book of F.Schachermeyer is mentioned that the sacral knot (symbol of holliness) was oftenly combined with the double-edged axe (symbol of the "arche" of creation-matriarchy) which always accompanied female goddesses.(The exstatic rites are mentioned in a different source which is added to describe the Minoan relegious system).From some photoraphs in the book it is obvious that the combination of the two Minoan symbols is a symbol quite similar to the ankh and it is just mentioned in the text,without changing the original ideas.The similarity of the ancient Egyptian ankh with the Coptic cross is mentioned in Wikipedia article ankh where some pictures are given too.In my opinion the ideas are attributable to the original sources.193.92.181.203 (talk) 12:33, 3 December 2010 (UTC)

Only harmless snakes in Crete

I wonder is it worth mentioning that none of the snakes of Crete are harmful to humans? As there is a very different complexion between playing with dangerous vipers, vs. never even having heard of a dangerous snake, and playing with a (say) Dice snake, which is not only harmless but "plays dead" when disturbed? Incidentally, the European Ratsnake is one of the species found on Crete, is a popular pet, and the stripes somewhat resemble the painting on the some of the snakes in these statuettes. -- 202.63.39.58 (talk) 12:38, 27 February 2011 (UTC)

Metallurgical Meaning

Two serpents are an ancient metallurgical symbol for tin. The goddess is the equivalent of Aphrodite/Venus or whatever name you choose for her. The key point is that she is associated with the planet Venus and the metal copper. She is a symbol for bronze, the secret of making it and the trade network required to accumulate the components to smelt it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.109.101.103 (talk) 04:24, 25 July 2011 (UTC)

Does any of this alchemical symbolism go back to 1600 B.C.?? The Cretan form of the snake goddess seems to have been forgotten between before 1000 B.C. and 1900 A.D., so presumably medieval alchemists wouldn't have known about her at all... AnonMoos (talk) 17:02, 25 July 2011 (UTC)
Yes. An amulet with two snakes on it dating from around 2000BCE found in Iran is generally interpreted as representing tin. The Sanskrit word for tin/lead is naga, which also mean snake. The Armenian word of tin is anag and the Sumerian word for tin is na-ag-ga. All of these words appear to derive from a common root word, so the association of snakes with tin appears to be ancient. Tin ingots dating from the bronze age are generally in really bad condition when discovered, but many of the ones were engraving marks can be recognized are marked with a curvy X(among other glyphs) similar to the symbol used in Medieval alchemy to represent tin. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.109.101.103 (talk) 06:36, 11 August 2011 (UTC)
The curvy X you talk of is Cypro-Syllabic script, often appearing on Bronze Age ox-hide ingots. It has nothing to do with Medieval Alchemy.--131.111.184.11 (talk) 11:06, 18 May 2012 (UTC)
Some additional information. The root word for "naga", "anag" appears to be Semitic in origin. The bare-breasted figurine, holding two snakes that is pictured in the article is lacquered with a tin glaze. Unfortunately, most of the research related to metallurgy and the figurines is unpublished. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.109.101.103 (talk) 05:27, 21 August 2011 (UTC)

Cleanup-rewrite tag?

I wonder if this tag still relevant? Would anyone object to me taking it down?Alexandrathom (talk) 21:04, 27 September 2013 (UTC)

I agree that the clean-up tag can be omitted.jest 16:57, 4 January 2014 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jestmoon (talk • contribs)

Asasarame

This title seems to accompany goddesses, and cannot be restricted to the "Snake goddess".jest 18:09, 10 May 2014 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jestmoon (talk • contribs)

Questionable restoration of the 'Snake Goddess'

It would be appropriate to acknowledge the heavy 'restoration' work done on the figurines. Primarily, that that the smaller of the figurines didn't originally hold any snakes (in fact, only her right arm had survived - with an empty hand). The small feline figurine on her headdress is was found nearby and assumed to belong to the statue (she was found without a head).

There is nothing in Minoan archaeology that suggest snakes played a significant role in Minoan culture, let alone the existence of 'snake goddess'. — Preceding unsigned comment added by MONDARIZ (talk • contribs) 14:29, 18 June 2014 (UTC)

Wikipedia goes by "common name", not necessarily what is most theoretically correct. AnonMoos (talk) 00:41, 19 June 2014 (UTC)

All the more reason to describe the restoration. She holds snakes because Evans wanted her to hold snakes and thus she became the 'snake goddess'. What the figurine originally grasped in her right hand is unknown (she was found without a left arm, so that's even more guesswork).

"snake of the household"

I mean come on guys... who wrote this?

there is the female's life long companion perched atop her head, this is ancient and known Greek symbolism, the snakes in her hands can be viewed as being presented to the owl, or keeper of the owl's food. This is the "Earth Goddess" and the ruler of the household.

The household in ancient times was and still is considered the womans (females) domain.

Once the worn figure atop her head is realized to be an owl, this whole article surely will need a rewrite, not mentioning a few other recorded third party unverified books from 1964 and 1869.

It pays to be left-handed :)

snake woman sculpture

This artifact is not just a goddess focused on domesticity. This is a figure that is worshiped in a matrilineal and matriarchal dominated society. Before the middle 2 second millenium BC a female was viewed as God by practically everyone in the known world (read: eastern Mediterranean through Persia) For more detail refer to the 1971 text by Merlin Stone, "When God Was a Woman." In fact that book has a cover with this figure on it. Stone was am art historian who spent 10 years researching and writing the work. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 184.166.91.157 (talk) 20:32, 6 September 2015 (UTC)

That book is not really accepted as a reliable scholarly source... AnonMoos (talk) 16:31, 20 September 2017 (UTC)

While reading through this article I tried to open the external link for "The Picture Stone from Smiss at Nar", but it was unable to open on my computer, hopefully this can be fixed so everyone can view it. Eadonley172 (talk) 18:30, 17 September 2017 (UTC)

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