Talk:Mohammad Reza Pahlavi/Archive 6

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Wikipedia:Naming conventions (languages) - Persian not Farsi

It is incorrect to refer to the official language of Iran - Persian - as Farsi when writing in English. "Farsi" (an Arabic adaptation of the word "Parsi"), is the indigenous name of the Persian language. Just as the German speaking people refer to their language as 'Deutsch', the Greek 'Ellinika' and the Spanish 'Espanol', the Iranians use 'Farsi' or 'Parsi' to identify their native form of verbal communication. Recognising this, it has been Wikipedia's policy (based on Wiki:Correct; Wiki:Verifiability; Wiki:Naming conventions (languages); Wiki:Official names) to consistently use the term Persian (language) instead of Farsi.

Therefore, whenever the word Farsi is used in the article, I will substitute it with the word Persian.

Thanks, NuturalObserver (talk) 19:33, 4 March 2017 (UTC)

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Image

I suppose the current image should be changed to this one because of higher resolution (yes, it's a scanned print, but looks bigger anyway).

I do not agree with Shahzad over:

  • 'improper' sourcing (as it's probably impossible to determine the exact origins of the picture, therefore we can only mark it as governmental production. I don't think the sources you provided about date and origins are realible enough - a travel firm site and some calendar? Are you serious?)
  • 'no difference in quality' (I wrote on this issue)
  • 'inappropriate' description (how can one add something about the picture we know almost nothing of?)

However, I can discuss the current cropping. Al-Douri (talk) 17:39, 31 December 2017 (UTC)

The current image has a much cleaner look, the one you've suggested has some impurities from being scanned. It's not a 'calendar', it is a published book. Shahzad (talk) 19:24, 31 December 2017 (UTC)
Yes, it has, but many details (such as decorations) are better seen. Now about your source: it's not enough for a book to be published to become a reliable source. Where are that author information comes from? Who are Ghazarians? If it's a family name, it's dubious to assume they own copyright, because it presumably was an official publication of government institutions. Moreover, it doesn't matter since the photo is in PD as it was published in Iran before the Revolution. Al-Douri (talk) 11:04, 1 January 2018 (UTC)

This whole article is not objective

This page reads like the Shah's PR team wrote it. But it had to be an Iranian government PR team; an American PR firm would be more subtle Sajita (talk) 20:04, 1 January 2018 (UTC)

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GA Review

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Reviewing
This review is transcluded from Talk:Mohammad Reza Pahlavi/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Maunus (talk · contribs) 16:03, 13 January 2018 (UTC)


I will start this review over the next week or so. ·maunus · snunɐɯ· 16:03, 13 January 2018 (UTC)

Review

  1. Well written:
    1. the prose is clear and concise, and the spelling and grammar are correct; and
The prose is not very clear or concise. It is very wordy, at times overly detailed and convoluted with many long run-on sentences. I will however not fail the nomination on prose, since it is mostly a matter of style and preference, but note that the prose, as it is now, would be a major obstacle if the article were to be nominated for FAC.
    1. it complies with the manual of style guidelines for lead sections, layout, words to watch, fiction, and list incorporation.
Some sections are over-long and require at the very least to be broken into subsections, and perhaps also to be shortened or spun off into daughter articles. The Section on "Early Life" is extremely long, and has no subsections.
  1. Verifiable with no original research:
    1. it contains a list of all references (sources of information), presented in accordance with the layout style guideline;
    2. all in-line citations are from reliable sources, including those for direct quotations, statistics, published opinion, counter-intuitive or controversial statements that are challenged or likely to be challenged, and contentious material relating to living persons—science-based articles should follow the scientific citation guidelines;
    3. it contains no original research; and
    4. it contains no copyright violations nor plagiarism.
  2. Broad in its coverage:
    1. it addresses the main aspects of the topic;
    2. it stays focused on the topic without going into unnecessary detail (see summary style).
  3. Neutral: it represents viewpoints fairly and without editorial bias, giving due weight to each.
  4. Stable: it does not change significantly from day to day because of an ongoing edit war or content dispute.
  5. Illustrated, if possible, by images:
    1. images are tagged with their copyright status, and valid fair use rationales are provided for non-free content; and
    2. images are relevant to the topic, and have suitable captions.

Section by section review

  • Lead:
  • 1. Early Life: This section is very very long and has no subsections. This makes it hard to read. It is also not clearly organized and seems to jump back and forth chronologically. I would suggest a subsection on his parents and siblings, one on his spiritual inclinations, one on his education, and one on his relationship with Perron. Also it is odd that there is no mention of the 1921 coup d'etat that made his father Shah.
Thanks for the advice, I've arranged the section into subsections and made the mention of the 1921 coup more obvious. Shahzad (talk) 19:45, 31 January 2018 (UTC)
  • 2.1. Deposition of his father. Contrary to the title this section (which should be divided into at least two, probably 3 subsections) is really about 1. Mohammad Reza's first marriage, 2. The anglo-Soviet invasion, and his fathers abdication, 3. Mohammad Reza's installation as Shah and his early attitude towards his fathers rule. Also the section is confusing when it mentions that he only began to learn how to fly after becoming Shahs (the section Early Life made it appear that he was already flying regularly when he was a young crown prince), and when it does not describe how the abdication of Reza Shah and crowning of Mohammad Reza as Shah affected their relationship which was described as very close- what happened to the father after abdication?
I have added subsections to this section, sorted out the issue with flying and mentioned his relationship with his exiled father. Shahzad (talk) 23:00, 17 February 2018 (UTC)
  • 2.2. The young Shah: I corrected some infelicitous language. Why is the 1964 assasination attempt treated in this section? It breaks chronology. How did Mohammed Reza meet Soraya Esfandiary?
I've mentioned the Shah's introduction to Soraya. The 1964 assassination attempt has been removed from this section and is mentioned later in the article. Shahzad (talk) 23:01, 17 February 2018 (UTC)
  • 2.3. Oil nationalization and the 1953 coup: Odd chronology here as well - it is very hard to follow what happens in what order. At one moment the Shah has finished the coup and commuted Mossadegh's sentence, the next paragraph we are back in time and support for Mossadegh is strong and the Shah hides under a blanket. Also the nature and extent of the MI6 and CIA involvement is unclear - was Pahlavi at this point a puppet to Western powers? Also which forces supported the Shah and made the coup possible? Did the Iranian military back the Shah against the democratic government? Were there American or British "boots on the ground"?
  • I apologize for taking a little longer. I wanted to get a hold of some of the literature used to do spot checks. Now I have Milani and Zonis' books and will proceed with the review over the coming week. ·maunus · snunɐɯ· 09:02, 29 January 2018 (UTC)

Concluding the review

I have now read through the article and must say that I will have to fail it on criteria 1A "well written", 2B "focused" and 3 "neutral":

1A - It is extremely wordy, and does not use WP:SUMMARYSTYLE - its size is at 163KB readable prose almost twice the size that WP:SIZE recommends for spliiting an article. Clearly most of the over long sections should be rewritten in summary style - and the more detailed version can be spun out to a daughter article. The
2B - It is not very focused, but provides many many details on matters that are not central to the topic. The excessive amount of detail makes the article less useful for readers because it is simply not possible to get an overview of the different aspects of the Shah, his life and his rule. There is an overemphasis on the Shah as person, to the detriment of understanding the political and social aspects of his rule and the period of iranian history it represents.
3 - The article seems somewhat positively biased towards Pahlavi: The Revolution is described as a surprise, and indeed it is a surprise that the Iranian people might revolt since none of the unpleasant aspects of his rule have been described: repression of political opponentns, systematic torture, forced confessions, secret police etc. The mention of th4 1963 uprisings do not include mention of the bloody repression of the pro-Khomeini protesters. All of this makes the article less informative because it really becomes unfathomable why the iranian people would prefer a muslim fanatic who doesn't want women to vote over an enlightened monarch who promotes peace and modernity. ON these accounts I will have to fail the article for now. Most urgent is an editing out of unnecessary detail to focus on the most significant parts - ideally it should be only around 100KB - I suggest spinning out articles on the main periods of his rule, or moving content to already existing articles such as the one on the Coup d'Etat.·maunus · snunɐɯ· 14:23, 25 February 2018 (UTC)

Torture

This entire article which aggrandizes this apparently noble, kind, intelligent, forward thinking good leader who for some reason was just overthrown by the entire country doesn't mention the word "torture" once.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/11/22/world/middleeast/years-of-torture-in-iran-comes-to-light.html

One would think that the Shah would be nominated for a nobel peace prize based on this extremely biased article. I'm stunned to see wikipedia advancing something like this when the human rights violations are well established and well documented. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.97.22.6 (talk) 16:38, 20 March 2018 (UTC)

I mentioned this problem in the GA review above, so I agree that it is a problem that needs to be fixed.·maunus · snunɐɯ· 16:47, 20 March 2018 (UTC)

Born in the Qajar Dynasty or Persia?

I reverted an edit where Crowtow849 (talk • contribs) changed the Shah's birthplace from Persia, which directs to Iran, to the Sublime State of Persia, which directs to the Qajar Dynasty. I believe the appropriate redirect is to Iran, since it gives it is easier for readers to understand the geographic location and if they so desire can read the full history. I’ll also note that Persia and Islamic Republic of Iran all redirect to Iran. I’d like to hear other editors thoughts, both on what it should be labeled with as well as the page it should be redirected to. Work permit (talk) 06:09, 22 August 2018 (UTC)

I will go first i guess. First thing I notice is how intertwined we use the words "Persia" & "Iran". Which is which? Only since 1925 did the word "Iran" start to be officially used. (Notice how I said officially, maybe people used to call Persia Iran and Iran Persia" before but that does not matter until it legally happened). Second, we tend to use geographical region but at that point, why didnt we start using the names British American colonies on people who were born today? (e.g. why dont we use "Province of New Jersey" instead of the "New Jersey, USA"?) Because we are in a different time period. The Iran today was not the same as the Iran back in 1950s or before, its stupid to even consider that it was. We went from ruling kings to an Islamic Republic and what time period the people were born in completely matters. It is time we use the correct time period for the life & death of the person in question. This is not just for Mohammad Reza Pahlavi but for all people on Wikipedia Crowtow849 (talk) 17:45, 22 August 2018 (UTC)

Major Text Alignment and Formatting Issues

Someone has introduced major formatting and text alignment issues in an attempt to arrange images in both left and right side of the text in this article, which makes it awkward to browse and read. A correction, or possible reversion may be called forXoltron (talk) 06:03, 1 February 2019 (UTC)

I agree. To my eye, the number of images in this article is excessive. See Wikipedia:Image use policy#Adding images to articles. The purpose of images is to illustrate an article ("a picture is worth a thousand words"), not to decorate it, as seems to be the case here. No other serious article has this fraction of the space taken by pictures. Cutting their number by 50% would not be at all excessive. Why not move them into a gallery? --John Maynard Friedman (talk) 20:56, 9 March 2019 (UTC)

cite added re "Great Civilisation" & modernisation

I added two recent cites: Reza Gholami (2016). Secularism and Identity: Non-Islamiosity in the Iranian Diaspora. Routledge. p. 80. amd Leila Alikarami (2019). Women and Equality in Iran: Law, Society and Activism. Bloomsbury. p. 54. that provide evidence for the text statement: "His dream of what he referred to as a "Great Civilisation" in Iran led to a rapid industrial and military modernisation, as well as economic and social reforms." Rjensen (talk) 17:01, 4 June 2019 (UTC)

Political Prisoners and other possible NPOV

The summary says the secret police took at most 3,200 political prisoners, whereas later in the article Amnesty International estimates there were up to 100,000 political prisoners. This seems like a fairly large discrepancy. Having skimmed the article (but admittedly not read it in depth) the POV is a bit suspect here. Seem to be a lot of weasel words. Example: causes for the revolution weren't "oppression and brutality" but rather "*reports of* oppression, brutality". The top summary suggests an economic golden age of prosperity and rapid growth, but the body talks about "economic bottlenecks, shortages and inflation; the regime's over-ambitious economic programme" as causes for the revolution. Mohammad Mosaddegh is described as "appointed", but elsewhere on Wikipedia he is described as "democratically elected". The article says the Shah was forced into exile because he wouldn't order troops to fire on protesters, yet the Black Friday subsection describes multiple occasions of this happening. ("With the population generally refusing to recognise martial law, the soldiers opened fire, killing and seriously injuring a large number of people.") There's a lot of weird stuff and self-contradiction in this article, especially in the introduction that makes me question the POV. Thoughts? --Replysixty (talk) 04:55, 26 January 2020 (UTC)

Contradiction in how Reza came to power

In the article the it states that Reza came to power after the UK and Soviet Union deposed his father. Later in the third paragraph of the "Foreign Relations" section it states that the US was responsible for putting him in power but gave no details of how. This seems to contradict the previous history given for his taking power from his father. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Nelsonj3 (talk • contribs) 16:50, 11 May 2020 (UTC)

I believe this is in reference to the 1953 Coup. Nonetheless, the statement is a personal view on the matter and should be removed in keeping with neutrality.Shahzad (talk) 00:25, 23 July 2020 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion

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Strong article

The reza palhavi voice is utterly complete and exaustive, probably written by an english man. Lack some little detail like fo exemple that the imperor was spending most of his time abroud, specially in france and italy. His residence in Teheran, now a museum I visited close to albiorz mountains, is complete with french forniture. When he received in persepolis dozens of dignitaries aroind the world as described in the article, the iranian people though probably that the melogamy of the ruler was too much offensive. Thanks Putojudio (talk) 16:08, 7 March 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 2 April 2021

Hi. i request for edit just in order to add a picture. Nothing moreBiometricxyz (talk) 09:30, 2 April 2021 (UTC) Biometricxyz (talk) 09:30, 2 April 2021 (UTC)

Please upload the picture you'd like added, being sure that it isn't a copyright violation, then say where you'd like to have it added. Thanks. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 11:13, 2 April 2021 (UTC)

"Ruholla Khomeini (known in the West as Ayatollah Khomeini)"

He was known as Ayatollah everywhere he was known at all. The parenthetical is unnecessary. 73.71.251.64 (talk) 02:31, 16 April 2021 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Melmann 06:19, 24 April 2021 (UTC)

Change "(known in the West as Ayatollah Khomeini)" to "". 73.71.251.64 (talk) 17:47, 24 April 2021 (UTC)

 Already done Sennecaster (What now?) 19:53, 24 April 2021 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:

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Word is missing

The word “that” is missing from the sentence: “These reforms led to decades of sustained economic growth (that) would make Iran…” 37.159.12.246 (talk) 14:55, 8 January 2022 (UTC)

Done. Thanks for spotting that. Britmax (talk) 15:30, 8 January 2022 (UTC)

1976 heart operation Cleveland OH

Why was the Shah's heart operation at the Cleveland Clinic not mentioned in the article? My father was in the clinic at the same time and we were constantly seeing the Iranian security. The article seems to be written with a bias toward the US hating and not helping the Shah. But he was cared for in one of the 3 best cardiac units in the world. I see definite anti encyclopedic bias in this article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:1702:41D0:4C30:14EB:8CE:239D:4D69 (talk) 09:54, 6 January 2022 (UTC)

Why do you see bias, as opposed to no editor thought to put it in? If you have a reliable source by all means add it. Britmax (talk) 15:32, 8 January 2022 (UTC)

Citations

Nothing seems to be cited for the entire 4th and 5th paragraphs. There is a 2 page citation for the 6th paragraph. An example: "The Shah initiated major investments in infrastructure, subsidies and land grants for peasant populations, profit sharing for industrial workers, construction of nuclear facilities, the nationalization of Iran’s natural resources, and literacy programs which were considered some of the most effective in the world."

Who considered them the most effective in the world? What investments were actually made? What natural resources were nationalized? What profit sharing and land grants were made available?

"Manufacturing of cars, appliances, and other goods in Iran increased substantially leading to the creation of a new industrialist class that was considered insulated from threats of foreign competition."

Who considered the industrialist class to be insulated from competition? Any source on car manufacturing happening in Iran at all? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:6C54:7900:D4D:E9AC:2A0:2DA4:3096 (talk) 15:16, 13 January 2022 (UTC)

Bias

Sections of this article follow a very particular political viewpoint, especially those on the Shah’s economic programs, diplomatic relationship with the US, and perception by students studying in the West. These need to be broadened to include opposing viewpoints and more sources. The lines on the students studying in the West also conflate liberalism with far-left politics and label both liberalism and far-leftism as “Western,” which does not make sense, as these two spectra of politics are quite different from each other and both have a long & involved history in political struggles around the world. A Wikipedia article is not the appropriate venue for someone to air their particular political views.

- just someone who’s been reading the article — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:643:8980:28E0:410D:EF03:639D:A8F4 (talk) 16:05, 23 October 2022 (UTC)

"Shah Reza Pahlavi" listed at Redirects for discussion

The redirect Shah Reza Pahlavi has been listed at redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the redirect guidelines. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2023 March 29 § Shah Reza Pahlavi until a consensus is reached. NotReallySoroka (talk) 11:45, 29 March 2023 (UTC)

"Imposed Shah" listed at Redirects for discussion

The redirect Imposed Shah has been listed at redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the redirect guidelines. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2023 April 1 § Imposed Shah until a consensus is reached. Not·Really·Soroka 00:34, 1 April 2023 (UTC)

Reference format

I think ref format is unclear; it uses a mix of short refs that used to reference the MOS:FURTHER before I renamed the further subsection to be "sources". But "sources" isn't quite the right descriptor either...

I recommend converting everything into full refs and not using any shortrefs. This would apply even if the books being referenced are in the further reading section (maybe should remove from the further reading section; it's not exactly further reading if it's being extensively referenced already) toobigtokale (talk) 08:52, 31 May 2023 (UTC)

What decades?

By the 1970s, the Shah was seen as a master statesman and used his growing power to pass the 1973 Sale and Purchase Agreement. These reforms culminated in decades of sustained economic growth 2600:1009:B02A:B237:E0A2:21EE:DA78:9D48 (talk) 03:49, 3 November 2023 (UTC)

Citations needed

Nothing from here to here:

The Shah went on to become a dominant figure in OPEC, promoting a surge in oil prices that crippled Western economies. Mohammad Reza introduced the White Revolution, a series of economic, social, and political reforms aimed at transforming Iran into a global power and modernizing the nation by nationalizing key industries and land redistribution. The regime implemented many Iranian nationalist policies. The Shah initiated major investments in infrastructure, subsidies and land grants for peasant populations, profit sharing for industrial workers, construction of nuclear facilities, the nationalization of Iran's natural resources, and literacy programs which were considered some of the most effective in the world. The Shah also instituted economic policy tariffs and preferential loans to Iranian businesses which sought to create an independent economy for the nation. Manufacturing of cars, appliances, and other goods in Iran increased substantially leading to the creation of a new industrialist class that was considered insulated from threats of foreign competition. By the 1970s, the Shah was seen as a master statesman and used his growing power to pass the 1973 Sale and Purchase Agreement. These reforms culminated in decades of sustained economic growth that would make Iran one of the fastest-growing economies of both developed and undeveloped nations. During his 37-year rule, Iran spent billions on industry, education, health, and armed forces and enjoyed economic growth rates exceeding the United States, Britain, and France. National income rose 423 times over. The nation saw an unprecedented rise in per capita income rising to the highest level at any point in Iran's history and high levels of urbanization. By 1977, Iran's armed services spending, which the Shah saw as a means to end foreign intervention in Iran, had made the nation the world's fifth strongest military. 2600:1009:B02A:B237:E0A2:21EE:DA78:9D48 (talk) 03:54, 3 November 2023 (UTC)

The primary source makes a case for him as a “benevolent autocrat” 2600:1009:B02A:B237:E0A2:21EE:DA78:9D48 (talk) 04:01, 3 November 2023 (UTC)
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