Talk:Monique Ryan
This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Monique Ryan article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find medical sources: Source guidelines · PubMed · Cochrane · DOAJ · Gale · OpenMD · ScienceDirect · Springer · Trip · Wiley · TWL |
![]() | This article is written in Australian English, which has its own spelling conventions (colour, realise, program, labour (but Labor Party)) and some terms that are used in it may be different or absent from other varieties of English. According to the relevant style guide, this should not be changed without broad consensus. |
![]() | Monique Ryan is a former featured article candidate. Please view the links under Article milestones below to see why the nomination was archived. For older candidates, please check the archive. | ||||||||||||
![]() | Monique Ryan has been listed as one of the Social sciences and society good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it. | ||||||||||||
| |||||||||||||
![]() | A fact from this article appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page in the "Did you know?" column on February 16, 2024. The text of the entry was: Did you know ... that Monique Ryan ran for election to the Parliament of Australia after seeing an advertisement in the newspaper calling for an independent candidate? | ||||||||||||
Current status: Former featured article candidate, current good article |
This article must adhere to the biographies of living persons (BLP) policy, even if it is not a biography, because it contains material about living persons. Contentious material about living persons that is unsourced or poorly sourced must be removed immediately from the article and its talk page, especially if potentially libellous. If such material is repeatedly inserted, or if you have other concerns, please report the issue to this noticeboard.If you are a subject of this article, or acting on behalf of one, and you need help, please see this help page. |
![]() | This page is about a politician who is running for office or has recently run for office, is in office and campaigning for re-election, or is involved in some current political conflict or controversy. For that reason, this article is at increased risk of biased editing, talk-page trolling, and simple vandalism. |
![]() | This article is rated GA-class on Wikipedia's content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion
[edit]The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:
Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 21:37, 24 December 2022 (UTC)
Papers
[edit]I would be tempted to remove most of the included academic citations. If Dr Ryan is included in a supplementary appendix as an author amongst a cast of many dozen that's hardly notable enough for wiki. None of the papers on which Dr Ryan is listed as an author in the paper itself are notable, all minor papers in very low tier journals. Seems like a politician padding their research chops frankly. 203.220.30.12 (talk) 11:41, 3 March 2023 (UTC)
- Which papers are minor and not notable? If you want to argue your case you'll have to actually list them and explain why they aren't notable. In regards to authorship, looks like she is listed as the lead author for many of the listed publications. --Simba1409 (talk) 12:12, 8 April 2023 (UTC)
- Just to add onto this, with over 150 peer-reviewed publications, listing only 6 is surely not a politician padding their research 'chops'. --Simba1409 (talk) 12:17, 8 April 2023 (UTC)
Sally Rugg Affidavit
[edit]Content was removed in relation to the Sally Rugg affidavit. The content seems to be sourced well and WP:NPOV seems to be adhered to (minor changes may be needed to give weight to other sides). I reverted the removal of content (see here) and it was subsequently re-reverted. Is this content acceptable for inclusion? Are amendments required prior to its inclusion? Should it be removed altogether? ––– GMH MELBOURNE TALK 13:09, 9 April 2023 (UTC)
- Thank you for bringing this discussion to a talk page. The accusation and court case by Sally Rugg against Monique Ryan absolutely belongs in the controversies section, no dispute there. However, I do not believe that minor allegations or claims made in the affidavits/application should be on the Wikipedia page while the court case is ongoing. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not an Age CBD column. I've taken a look at the affidavits online and both sides make damaging claims, yet the only claims (outside of the general claim of the application) mentioned are those made by Sally Rugg. The claims are disputed of course by Monique Ryan and that is not mentioned either.
- In terms of balance, to only include the accusations found in the affidavits from one side that reflect poorly only on Monique Ryan does clearly not meet WP:NPOV is it clearly isn't balanced. Naturally, one solution is to include the claims against Rugg, such as not performing all the duties of the role or performing them poorly, or catching a flight whilst she had COVID.
- However, if you start doing that then editors have the read the affidavits and determine which of the 100s of claims should be mentioned in this article and which one's shouldn't, noting that almost all of them are disputed by the other party.
- The court case is ongoing, I propose that only factual, undisputed court facts are part of the article until the case concludes. Currently, the article mentions the overall claim made in the application and the outcome of the interlocutory meeting. For now, that is appropriate. To take any other approach will lead to various debates as to which affidavit claims should make the article (certainly it would be 6 paragraphs long if you included them all) and then of course, you'll have to drastically change the page once a judge makes rulings on the claims made. Keep it simple, keep it factual, and don't make it a CBD gossip/speculation column by blurting out the various she said, she said of these affidavits. Simba1409 (talk) 11:36, 10 April 2023 (UTC)
- Taking what you have said into account, I think that it is possible to keep the removed content provided that both side of the court case are given the same weight that is available throughout the mainstream reliable sources. (See WP:BALANCE).
- Also FYI, here are some sources that establish notability of the removed content: ABC, Herald Sun, The Australian, Daily Telegraph, Sky News, 9 News, APP. ––– GMH MELBOURNE TALK 12:55, 10 April 2023 (UTC)
![]()
| ||
Bookku (talk) 09:00, 12 April 2023 (UTC) |
- I am satisfied with the 3rd opinion. Simba1409 (talk) 13:20, 13 April 2023 (UTC)
References
- ^ Thompson, Angus (30 January 2023). "Activist, adviser Sally Rugg takes boss Monique Ryan to court". The Sydney Morning Herald. Retrieved 30 January 2023.
- ^ Tim Callanan and Kristian Silva (2023-03-07). "Judge rules Sally Rugg cannot continue working for MP Monique Ryan while they face off in court". ABC News Australia. Retrieved 2023-03-07.
- ^ Rugg v Commonwealth of Australia as Represented by the Department of Finance AND Ryan, VID 44 of 2023 (Federal Court of Australia 2023-03-07).
MoS/legal
[edit]@GMH Melbourne and Simba1409: I came here from WP:3O but I am not sure I would be able spare time for providing 3rd opinion. Any ways as of now I wish to bring attention to the fact that we have Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Legal and also a relevant discussion to update guidelines is open @ the talk page there. Bookku (talk) 03:40, 12 April 2023 (UTC)
GA Review
[edit]The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
GA toolbox |
---|
Reviewing |
- This review is transcluded from Talk:Monique Ryan/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.
Reviewer: JML1148 (talk · contribs) 03:18, 5 January 2024 (UTC)
Thanks for improving the article! Review will come soon. JML1148 (talk | contribs) 03:18, 5 January 2024 (UTC)
Overall, fantastic work, particularly with the writing style. However, the article is lacking detail in some areas, which will need to be fixed before this is made a GA.
- It is reasonably well written.
- It is factually accurate and verifiable.
- a (reference section):
b (inline citations to reliable sources):
c (OR):
d (copyvio and plagiarism):
- a (reference section):
- It is broad in its coverage.
- a (major aspects):
b (focused):
- See comments below.
- a (major aspects):
- It follows the neutral point of view policy.
- Fair representation without bias:
- Fair representation without bias:
- It is stable.
- No edit wars, etc.:
- No edit wars, etc.:
- It is illustrated by images and other media, where possible and appropriate.
- a (images are tagged and non-free content have non-free use rationales):
b (appropriate use with suitable captions):
- a (images are tagged and non-free content have non-free use rationales):
- Overall:
- Pass/Fail:
- See comments below.
- Pass/Fail:
Feedback
[edit]- Some references without authors, including refs 10, 12, and 45.
- Fixed, Reference 10 is wired via the AP so it doesn't have an author.
- Her medical career needs to be expanded upon. Ryan seems to have been a fairly prominent doctor but there's almost no information about her medical career.
- Ryan, like all teals, ran a very grassroots-focused campaign, yet this isn't well-explained.
- Climate 200 is mentioned once, in the lede. There should be at least two sentences about them and the amount of money they gave Ryan.
- Does 'teal independent' need quotation marks in every appearance it makes in the article? It's a rather common word to use now.
- Quotation marks on 'moderate' could be read as scarequoting; on my first readthrough of the article, I thought so.
- 'principal investigator' feels like jargon. Any more accessible word to use here?
- Almost mention about anti-corruption policies, which was a big part of Ryan's campaign.
- I really don't like how the 'See Also' template is sitting in the middle of a section. Can we split that into a subsection so that it looks better?
- Agree, split it into its own section.
- First two sentences in "Member of Parliament" section should be in the above section.
- Stage three tax cuts need to be explained. Also does it need to be capitalized?
- The last paragraph of the "Member of Parliament" section is a mess of completely different policies that ideally should be separated to make more sense.
- When the Israel-Palestine conflict is removed, the "Political Views" section is rather short. Can we expand this with more policy positions?
Overall, the article just needs some extensions and minor changes to reach GA status. Usually a source check would be needed at this stage of the process, but I will wait until the extensions are complete. JML1148 (talk | contribs) 03:47, 5 January 2024 (UTC)
- Thank you very much for your comments! I shall get to work on them. GraziePrego (talk) 06:30, 5 January 2024 (UTC)
- @GraziePrego: A gentle reminder - if after 7 days, there haven't been substantial improvements to the article, the GAN will be failed. It's already been nearly 3 days with no improvements to the article. JML1148 (talk | contribs) 23:21, 7 January 2024 (UTC)
- Thank you for the reminder- I have just set up this morning to start work on this :) When I complete a comment, I'll italicise it. GraziePrego (talk) 23:34, 7 January 2024 (UTC)
- @GraziePrego: A gentle reminder - if after 7 days, there haven't been substantial improvements to the article, the GAN will be failed. It's already been nearly 3 days with no improvements to the article. JML1148 (talk | contribs) 23:21, 7 January 2024 (UTC)
- Courtesy ping of @JML1148 - I have finished going through your comments, thank you very much. Please let me know if you have any questions and what further changes you think need to be made. GraziePrego (talk) 01:59, 8 January 2024 (UTC)
- @GraziePrego: Thanks for the improvements. Some more stuff below:
- I prefer the 'Selected publications' section at the bottom of the page, where it originally was. I was going to move it myself but I was wondering if there was a specific reason you moved it further up?
Between January and March of 2022, Ryan's campaign spent $86,700 AUD on advertisements...
Doesn't comply with MOS:MONEY. Should appear as 'A$86,700', with any other examples of 'AUD' being removed.a pub in Kew junction
Shouldn't this be 'at Kew Junction'?Volunteer manager of the campaign was Rob Baillieu, son of former Victorian premier Ted Baillieu, who campaigned for Frydenberg.
I have two issues with this. First, it should read as, 'The volunteer manager of Ryan's campaign', rather than the existing phrase. Second, the sentence could be read as Rob Baillieu campaigning for Frydenberg, which is obviously contradictory. Should ideally be split into two sentences.knocked on the door of every single residence
could be replaced with the more direct and much less wordy "canvassed every household".
Source spot-check
[edit]- Source 4 -
her mother was a charity worker who served as CEO of the Christian Brothers Foundation, and founded Women for Women in Africa, a charity supporting the Kibera slum in Kenya.
This claim appears to apply to Marguerite Ryan, but neither of the sources linked to the statement confirm that Marguerite is Monique Ryan's mother. - Source 7 - Where does 'in 2014' come from?
- Source 13 - Verifies.
- Source 16 - Verifies.
- Source 21 - Verifies.
- Source 27 - Verifies.
- Source 31 - Verifies.
- Source 34 - Verifies.
- Source 37 - Verifies.
- Source 43 - Verifies.
- Source 49 - Verifies.
- Source 52 - Verifies.
- Source 55 - Verifies.
- Source 59 - Verifies.
- Source 62 - Verifies.
- Source 66 - Verifies.
JML1148 (talk | contribs) 02:40, 8 January 2024 (UTC)
- @JML1148 Thank you very much for your additional comments. I've removed the statements about Ryan's parents because sadly I couldn't find anything supporting them. 2014 was a great pickup from you- I found a copy of Ryan's CV as part of the Folbigg inquiry, which clarifies that she became director in 2015. I also agree with the placement of Selected Publications that you suggested, and popped it at the bottom. All comments are finished, if you have any more changes then please let me know :) GraziePrego (talk) 05:54, 8 January 2024 (UTC)
- @GraziePrego: Happy to pass this, then. Thank you for your work. JML1148 (talk | contribs) 06:53, 8 January 2024 (UTC)
Did you know nomination
[edit]- The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was: promoted by AirshipJungleman29 talk 19:29, 8 February 2024 (UTC)
- ... that Monique Ryan is classified as a "teal independent", as her politics blends the blue of the Liberal Party of Australia with Green politics? Source: https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2022/may/21/australia-election-conservative-government-voted-out-after-nearly-a-decade
- ALT1: ... that Monique Ryan ran for parliament after seeing an advertisement in the newspaper calling for an independent candidate? Source: https://www.theage.com.au/politics/victoria/like-taking-on-bambi-the-children-s-doctor-aiming-to-unseat-the-treasurer-20211208-p59fqa.html
- ALT2: ... that Monique Ryan was a paediatric neurologist before entering parliament? Source: https://www.theage.com.au/politics/victoria/like-taking-on-bambi-the-children-s-doctor-aiming-to-unseat-the-treasurer-20211208-p59fqa.html
- Reviewed:
Improved to Good Article status by GraziePrego (talk). Self-nominated at 07:09, 8 January 2024 (UTC). Post-promotion hook changes for this nom will be logged at Template talk:Did you know nominations/Monique Ryan; consider watching this nomination, if it is successful, until the hook appears on the Main Page.
- Comment: I believe ALT0 is factually inaccurate. Is there another source that verifies this? ––– GMH Melbourne (talk) 14:40, 8 January 2024 (UTC)
- https://www.independent.co.uk/news/ap-liberal-party-malcolm-turnbull-australian-climate-b2082447.html makes that interpretation of the colour. GraziePrego (talk) 22:59, 8 January 2024 (UTC)
- Given the nationality of the subject (Australian), pinging either Schwede66 or DrThneed to ask if they are interested in reviewing given that they are both from New Zealand and have an interest in the politics of the region. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 09:48, 2 February 2024 (UTC)
- Narutolovehinata5, sorry, whilst Oz is considered by some to be the westernmost island of New Zealand, I actually know zilch about their politics. You'll want an Australian for this I think! DrThneed (talk) 09:55, 2 February 2024 (UTC)
- Same with me. JennyOz, do you know how to review a DYK nomination? Schwede66 17:03, 2 February 2024 (UTC)
- Well Schwede no, I don't know how but happy to have a go (especially if you will answer any questions I will undoubtedly have). GraziePrego has been doing a great job on our politicians' articles.
- But firstly, GMH, what is your concern with Alt0... that Ryan is considered as one of the Teal independents or that the name teal was derived from the blend of blue and green? JennyOz (talk) 11:51, 3 February 2024 (UTC)
- That’s really nice of you to say, JennyOz :) thank you GraziePrego (talk) 12:30, 3 February 2024 (UTC)
- @JennyOz: My concern is with the "blue/green blend" phrase. I believe that is what commentators have said rather than the actual meaning behind the colour choice. I have no secondary sources that verify this but I did find this tweet. GMH Melbourne (talk) 12:13, 4 February 2024 (UTC)
- Thanks GMH, Zali Steggall (the first (2019) to use teal as her campaign colour) said "I was always looking at what colour resonates with the electorate, and it was that mix of a policy platform that is blue and green, and it was apt for me being a moderate centrist politician very focused on climate and environmental outcomes..." The colour name and meaning then became "so-called" and now "a thing" since the 2022 election. More at SMH re "teal' being word of the year.
- Article is new enough, passed GA 8 January and nominated same day. Is long enough and is comprehensively well-sourced throughout with formatted reliable sources. Is neutral. Earwig gives one URL (apumone.com which I can't find mentioned at WP:RSN) at 62.5% 'possible' (but from iffy site per this factcheck) and content appears copied from Wikipedia. Other Earwig results are job titles, publications etc. I didn't detect any close paraphrasing. QPQ N/A, appears to be nominator's 3rd nomination.
- Hooks - All hook lengths are under 200 characters.
- ALT0 - Hook is interesting though I think needs tweaking...
- I can't access the link GMH offered but have read about a dozen RSs (kept a list if needed) that mention the teal meaning derivation. Whilst some mention the candidates have eg "economically conservative Liberal sensibilities" others talk of where they were contesting ie Liberal Party–held seats. And we know Ryan was formerly an ALP member so I don't think we can say "her politics" were partly Liberal Party.
- Per the quote at ref 14 in article from Q+A when Ryan said "And that's why people such as myself, who are sensible centrists, have stepped into the middle, representing the values of traditional small-L liberals..." I'm pretty sure she's saying small-L liberal as in liberalism (people who are ideologically liberal but are not necessarily members of a political party named "Liberal") not as in Moderates (Liberal Party of Australia) as is linked. (I can't check though because the Qanda site no longer plays that episode's video nor loads its transcript.)
- (Also in "as her politics blends the", should be singular 'blend' and "with Green politics" should have a lower case g.)
- GraziePrego, I'm sure there is a teal-related hook to be had but not quite as currently worded. I'd be happy to help suggest tweaks to ALT0 teal hook if my concerns aren't clear:)
ALT1 is fine. Approve, is sourced and interesting. (Maybe even quirky.) JennyOz (talk) 11:22, 8 February 2024 (UTC)
- ALT2 is fine except "paediatric neurologist" is not directly mentioned in the given The Age reference and in article it only appears in ibox and lede. (I'm not suggesting it's wrong, obviously she was a neurologist at a children's hospital.) The specific term is definitely mentioned though in other RS refs eg current refs 12, 16, 29, so suggest one of those is copied to the two-word term in article if ALT2 is selected.
- This is my first review so would appreciate doublecheck please, especially on interpreting Earwig result. Schwede have I missed anything, done anything wrong? JennyOz (talk) 05:31, 8 February 2024 (UTC)
- I'm very happy for ALT1 to be used as the DYK. :) Your comments are absolutely right about ALT0 @JennyOz too, thank you for taking a look. GraziePrego (talk) 06:05, 8 February 2024 (UTC)
- Well that's easy! Thanks GraziePrego, goodonya! JennyOz (talk) 11:22, 8 February 2024 (UTC)
- Thanks, JennyOz. I’m running a edit-a-thon until Sunday night and will be able to check Earwig on Monday. Bear with me. Schwede66 09:28, 8 February 2024 (UTC)
- Schwede - no problem. GraziePrego has swapped to ALT1. I hope you have a fun and productive edit-a-thon. JennyOz (talk) 11:22, 8 February 2024 (UTC)
- I'm very happy for ALT1 to be used as the DYK. :) Your comments are absolutely right about ALT0 @JennyOz too, thank you for taking a look. GraziePrego (talk) 06:05, 8 February 2024 (UTC)
A potential source
[edit]@GraziePrego: If you want to expand this page further, a good source to use would be The Teal Revolution: Inside the Movement Changing Australian Politics, by Margot Saville. Steelkamp (talk) 08:10, 18 January 2024 (UTC)
- Thank you for the suggestion! I have a friend with a copy and have organised to borrow it :) GraziePrego (talk) 08:45, 18 January 2024 (UTC)
- Wikipedia articles that use Australian English
- Wikipedia good articles
- Social sciences and society good articles
- Wikipedia Did you know articles
- Biography articles of living people
- Active politicians
- GA-Class AfC articles
- AfC submissions by date/23 January 2022
- Accepted AfC submissions
- GA-Class biography articles
- GA-Class biography (politics and government) articles
- Low-importance biography (politics and government) articles
- Politics and government work group articles
- WikiProject Biography articles
- GA-Class neuroscience articles
- Low-importance neuroscience articles
- GA-Class WikiProject Women articles
- All WikiProject Women-related pages
- WikiProject Women articles
- GA-Class politics articles
- Low-importance politics articles
- WikiProject Politics articles
- GA-Class medicine articles
- Low-importance medicine articles
- All WikiProject Medicine pages
- GA-Class Australia articles
- Low-importance Australia articles
- GA-Class Victoria articles
- Low-importance Victoria articles
- WikiProject Victoria articles
- GA-Class Australian politics articles
- Low-importance Australian politics articles
- WikiProject Australian politics articles
- WikiProject Australia articles