Talk:Monte Melkonian

Comment

I split the "Armenia" section into a several smaller ones, as it was overly long and written as an almost single block of text. Augustgrahl

Please remove the Azeri flag at the place of his death so as not to inflame passions. Moreover, give the proper name of his place of death as Artsakh. It has, since the dawn of time, been called Artsakh. Nobody, as far as Armenians living in the region, call it by Stalin's designated name for the region. Thank you kindly. Please don't inflame passions by bating and having his enemies' designated name or flag for the region so we may all discuss these issues calmly. Moreover, please put back the factual similarities to his life and the movie "Borne Identity." Nobody is saying the novel was inspired by his life. All that needs to be recognized is that his factual circumstances had factual similarities with the novel. Please don't twist words to imply otherwise. Monte Melkonian (talk) 19:11, 7 April 2011 (UTC)

Thank you for tempering your previous comments on the subject of the flag. I restored the place name of his death as the properly-sourced, present-day name of the region, but left off the flag in order to facilitate discussion. The Bourne discussion is not proper here, not without a reliable source who makes that association you are seeking to put forward. JohnInDC (talk) 19:22, 7 April 2011 (UTC)

JohnInDC, Agdam district is not even in Nagorno Karabakh which was claimed by Armenians. It's in lower Karabakh. It's an occupied territory of Azerbaijan. Please make research on yahoo or google and you will see. Don't be victim of this user's false information. Dighapet (talk) 19:31, 7 April 2011 (UTC)

This is the point at which I may bow out! I thought I was restoring the article to an earlier, properly sourced state; but I suppose I'm at a disadvantage not knowing the region at all. JohnInDC (talk) 19:34, 7 April 2011 (UTC)

Yes but you can help as neutral person. He claims his position, I claim the opposite, you as a neutral person can help by making research online seeing reliable neutral sources and according to them correcting article information. so, please help. Dighapet (talk) 19:37, 7 April 2011 (UTC)

Contentious Statement

A discussion on the merits of including the line about Melkonian being denounced as a terrorist would probably be more productive than the current edit war. -- Augustgrahl 21:36, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

I think it is clear some users just to try polish Melkonian biography. He is well-known in Europe as a terrorist, and I put some referenced info. More you can find in books about the history of various terrorist groups. What we should discuss?--Dacy69 22:02, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

I don't think calling someone a terrorist is appropriate and coming from a book, add a real reference. Nareklm 22:04, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

The statement could easily be rewritten to say that "so-and-so has labeled Melkonian a terrorist." We should not be labeling this person a terrorist but if someone or multiple someones have made public and notable accusations then we should probably mention it. --ElKevbo 22:54, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

Just because the author of a book says "he was denouced a terrorist in Europe" that doesn't make hima a terrorist, just from one source. Nareklm and ElKevbo are right there should be another source not from an author of a book. ROOB323 23:17, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

I don't think there needs to be another source if the statement is simply "So-and-so, author of ___, labeled Melkonian a terrorist" or something similar. There is a huge difference between labeling him a terrorist and reporting that someone else considers him a terrorist. I'm not even sure we could outright label someone a terrorist since the label is fundamentally subjective. --ElKevbo 23:28, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

That Melkonian was a member of an organization that utilized terrorism is more or less a fact, however, the statement given in the source is extremely vague, and seems to be a use of [| weasel wording]. -- Augustgrahl 00:00, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

Dacy you better respond you cry to other admins and users about me but you dont dare to reply, you are in the ruling of vandalism. Nareklm 02:14, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

REMAIN CIVIL. You and other users tries to bleach a well-known terrorist. He was a member of ASALA - terrorist organizations. He was imprisoned in France. Look at this [1] , [2] and in the internet a bunch of others (even if you disregard obviously Turkish and Azeri cites, still many others where Melkonian is called terrorist). It is not weasel word. It is fact. Finally - US Dept. of State Report "Patterns of Global Terrorism" [www.mipt.org/pdf/1986pogt.pdf]. I don't need any efforts to prove that he was a terrorist. We can substitute current reference with others.--Dacy69 04:06, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

Where does it say he was denounced as an terrorist by Europe? NO WHERE, or no where reliable, also the second link is not reliable. Nareklm 04:12, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

Dacy69, please read WP:WTA. Such labellings are not allowed in Wikipedia, even if they're sourced. --Mardavich 04:17, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

It is a use of weasel words, because it brings up the question of who in Europe is denouncing him. Please read the section carefully. -- Augustgrahl 05:19, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

from WP:WTA The words terrorism and terrorist may be cited where there is a verifiable and cited indication of who is calling a person or group terrorist. I have sources where he is called terrorist. And US Dept. State Report "Pattern of Global Terrorism" of 1986 mentioned him among listing of terrorist activities by Armenian organizations (page 29)--Dacy69 14:41, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

The statement that he was "denounced" for being a terrorist implies that he was personally condemned for his actions. Simply being mentioned in a report on terrorism doesn't really fit the description. -- Augustgrahl 18:32, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

If a person is listed among criminals, he is criminal. If a person's activity is listed among terrorist activity he is terrorist. Why we should play with words? Afterall, he is not mentioned in US State Dept. Report for charity activity. It was terrorism. And in Europe, and in US as well, he is known as a terrorist--Dacy69 02:58, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

Was Monte Melkonian a terrorist? There are certainly notable viewpoints that say he was; I'm not going to argue against that. However, saying that he was "denounced" (this has a different connotation than labeled or defined) as one implies that somebody whose opinions are notable for the purposes of Wikipedia singled him out to criticize his actions. One can make the statement that somebody was a terrorist without actually having an opinion on their character. -- Augustgrahl 03:09, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

We can rephrase a sentence - but 'denounce' - this is exactly word used on many websites about him. So, we can put 'define', 'listed', etc. But the fact is that he was a terrorist and involved in terrorist activity during certain part of his life, at least.--Dacy69 04:57, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

I do think that Monte was a terrorist. He just struggled for the rehabilitation of the rights of the Armenians, he just wanted to defend his people, he just wanted to make the all-Armenian dream come true. (a STUDENT FROM Armenia, 16.02.07)

We don't report personal opinions, only what reliable sources say. Grandmaster 08:49, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

Global terrorism report

The 1986 report doesn't say he was a terrorist. It says that he was convicted of forgery and weapon possession charges.Vartanm 23:34, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

In the report his activity was listed among terrorist one. Who he is then? let's not play with words. Besides I don't see a reason why we can reject Brogan and other websites where Melkonian is called 'terrorist'.

And now back - about mediation. Such disputes might be endless. I made a formal offer and wait for certain time. I don't afraid of it. I have every reason to believe that I can prove my case. You, of course, can reject mediation.--Dacy69 03:17, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

Such disputes might be endless because of your continuation of vandalizing Armenian articles. It's obvious that you're trying to push your POV. Prove your case in the talk page. Vartanm 05:42, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

I believe that I proved my edit. It is indeed a section of Monte's activity in NK should be deleted because it is not referenced at all. Be careful with wird vandalization. You and other users just want to clean up terrorists. I will file arbitration request and let other people judge.--Dacy69 21:56, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

You didn't prove anything. Like I said before your source doesn't say he's a terrorist.He was never convicted as terrorist. Vartanm 23:17, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

Jason Borne, in the movie "Borne Identity" was also depicted as a terrorist. Don't be fooled by labels. Can we have the a link to show that "Abu Sindi", "Timothy Sean McCormack", and "Saro" gave inspiration, or shall we say, that Hollywood stole Monte's identity? Thank you in advance for your assistance. Monte Melkonian (talk) 22:10, 6 April 2011 (UTC)

ASALA and Melkonian

Below is my posting from ArbCom page, which lists all relevant links to State Department quotes.

I just wanted to make something clear. User Artaxiad above said "Dacy keeps on want to add that he (Monte Melkonian) was a terrorist, why is this? -- The answer, Monte Melkonian was a member and one of the main leaders of ASALA - Armenian Secret Army for Liberation of Armenia, which was considered as a terrorist organization by the U.S. State Department. Below are some links in reference. So, Mr. Melkonian, eliminated by Azerbaijani Armed Forces in Karabakh, was a terrorist without any doubts.

* [U.S. State Department Patterns of Global Terrorism: 1997]

* [U.S. Department of State Daily Press Briefing October 8, 1997]

* [US Department of State Daily Press Briefing #190, Monday, December 23, 1991]

Thanks. Atabek 17:06, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

Plushttp://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Monte_Melkonian&action=edit&section=3 Editing Talk:Monte Melkonian (section) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

• US Dept. State Report "Pattern of Global Terrorism" of 1986

• Patrick Brogan. World Conflicts, Scarecrow Press, 1999, p.624. "in November 1985 French police arrested an American Armenian terrorist in paris Monte melkonian from Fresno, California. he had been hagopian's top assistant before splitting with ASALA to form his own group. By then Armenian terrorists were regular putting bombs in shops, offices, bus stations"

Other internet pages where Melkonian identified as terrorists

• well-known publishing house in the description of the book about Melkonian [3]

a bunch of other websites--Dacy69 17:36, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

Atabek none of your sources mention his name. All 3 are about ASALA. None prove that Monte was a terrorist.

Dacy your source is publishers review of the book "My Brothers Road" which doesn't say that he was a terrorist. Stop editing this article without discussion.Vartanm 19:47, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

ASALA has its own article. If readers want to know more about ASALA, they can read the ASALA article. Sources on ASALA on Monte Melkonian page are unnessesary. Vartanm 19:54, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

Don't be fooled by labels. Monte was "Jason Borne" as in the movie "Borne Identity." Can we have a link to show how Hollywood stole his identity? Monte Melkonian (talk) 22:53, 6 April 2011 (UTC)

My sources say that he was a terrorist (Brogan) and publisher say that he was denounced as a terrorist. US Report of 1986 listed his activity as terroristic (he was not mentioned there for babysitting, after all) I put that before but that wroding was also removed.

And you removed a tag in section NK without discussion.--Dacy69 20:42, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

I've put request for third opinion before proceeding to arbitration since you have refused mediation [4]--Dacy69 20:47, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

Where in that report does it say his activity was terroristic? I didn't refuse the mediation. I said lets discuss it in the talk page before you change anything in the article. Vartanm 21:15, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

OK -- US Department of State Report "Pattern of Global Terrorism", 1986: On page 29 which entitled "ARMENIAN TERRORISM" , the report says about the conviction of Monte Melkonian for forgery and weapons and explosives posession. Americans had a reason to list his activity under section 'Armenian terrorism'. It is not criminal report about France or elsewhere.

You just trying to play with words. When I list sources where he called directly 'terrorist' you say that the sources aren't reliable. When I point to report about terrorism you say the report does not call him a 'terrorist'. All sources are neutral, it is not Azeri, Turkish or let's say Jewish (which might be biased for ASALA-Arab links). It is US report, it is a book of renowned British scholar (who indeed in his chapter about 'Armenian terrorism' expresses sympathy about genocide issue).

As a matter of fact, neither of my edits put directly that he was 'terrorist'. My wording was the following:

• was a member of the Armenian guerrilla organization ASALA, for which he was denounced as terrorist
• was a member of the Armenian guerrilla organization ASALA, for which he was defined as a terrorist and listed in relevant American reports

--Dacy69 21:37, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

I'm playing with words? "You just trying to play with words" Next paragraph "As a matter of fact, neither of my edits put directly that he was 'terrorist'" You're the one playing with words. For the 1000th time The report does not call him terrorist.It doesn't denounce or define him as a terrorist either. There are many other names in that report, Should we define everybody in that report as terrorist. Patrick Brogan is a book author. His opinion alone doesn't justify you defining him as a terrorist. Do you have a link to that text? I would like to take a look. Vartanm 22:04, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

From Azeri press "The mostly known Armenian terrorist Monte Melkonyan made lots of armed attacks against the Turkish diplomats. In these attacks lots of people were killed" [5] This news article has lots of unsourced and false azeri propoganda. Pure Azeri POV. Vartanm 22:12, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

What is the purpose you put Azeri source? I never cited them. What you are playing indeed? I cited neutral sources. For Brogan - it is only in hard copy and it is not my resposibility to provide them. I cite, you can verify. I believe that his book is in many libraries. One I found even in general reference section along with encyclopedias. Brogan is not alone as I showed.

I am not playing with words. I just mentioned that I am not proposing to put "Melkonian was a terrorist" even I believe that he is. For Wikipedia I propose another wording, which I have also shown above.--Dacy69 22:29, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

Both of your proposals portray him as terrorist. Which is Azeri POV. Vartanm 22:36, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

Not only as I quoted neutral sources. But I will wait for third party opinion and then we can proceed to mediation. As I undertsand you don't mind. I will file a request and let you know.--Dacy69 17:50, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

Before a third party opinion is given

They should take a look at this. [6] Dacy69 is one of the main users causing Armenian-Azeri edit waring. Adding controversial and biased information to Armenian related articles including this one. Vartanm 23:48, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

This is blatant accusation. It is is you and like-minded people who push Armenian shauvinistic POV. I requested several times assistance and offered mediation on this and other pages. None is done by Armenian editors. please read carefully whole arbitration statements. see for insults and threats of edit war from Armenian editors. Everything is there--Dacy69 17:50, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

Thats funny "Armenian chauvinistic POV" talking about accusations and insults. I have read the arbitration statements. All I see is Azeri editors like yourself trying to push you agenda.Vartanm 18:54, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

Your Sources'

* [U.S. State Department Patterns of Global Terrorism: 1997]

No mention of Monte Melkonian.

* [U.S. Department of State Daily Press Briefing October 8, 1997]

No mention of Monte Melkonian.

* [US Department of State Daily Press Briefing #190, Monday, December 23, 1991]

No mention of Monte Melkonian.

Patrick Brogan. World Conflicts, Scarecrow Press, 1999, p.624

Just because one book writer calls him terrorist. It doesn't make him one.

US Department of State Report "Pattern of Global Terrorism", 1986, p. 29

Nowhere in that report it says that he was a terrorist.

Vartanm 19:16, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

Third opinion

The matter about terrorism is that there are some intermediate states between "clearly terrorism" and "clearly not terrorism". It would be necessary to write the matter in a neutral way, and add a section on the perception of the ASALA state with respect to terrorism.--Uyet Ustranimii 20:24, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

A member of terrorist organization, who commits the acts of violence either directly or indirectly, should be clearly spelled as such. The State Department established the fact that ASALA was a terrorist organization, and this is not denied by anyone on this talk page. Monte Melkonian was a member and leader of ASALA. On September 24, 1981, Melkonian directed the "Van Operation" with takeover of Turkish embassy in Paris and holding the people in it as hostages for several days. In 1983, ASALA organized a bombing attack at Orly airport in Paris on Turkish Airlines counter, killing 8 people and wounding 55. Since majority of victims were not Turkish, ASALA split into two warring factions, with Hagop Hagopian defending "collateral damage", while Melkonian insisting that the attacks should directed "strictly against Turkish targets". Do we need more evidence than that, to prove that Melkonian was leading ASALA's terrorist attacks? Atabek 10:29, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

Is that the word on the street? or you have reliable sources that he was denounced as terrorist in Europe and US. Vartanm 10:34, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

Yes we need reliale references. You just saying something does not make it true. I could say lot of things, but that doesn't mean it must be true. Everyone has their own opinions on everything, but you can't just come and force your ideas through. You have to prove it with facts. ROOB323 10:35, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

Section Nagorno-Karabakh

That section does not cite its sources (which should be neutral) and information about the war in Nagorno-Karabakh is not in conformity with NPOV--Dacy69 17:44, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

Which sources are POW Dacy69? Put an next to them so we can add references to those. Instead of tagging the whole section of Nagorno-Karabakh POW. ROOB323 21:59, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

Well, I think you should better look at the section. It is taged with {{Fact}}. And I pationately wait for citation based on neutral sources in accordance with Wiki rules.--Dacy69 04:29, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

Quite a long time passed since this section was tagged - no neutral sources was supplied to prove information. This section should be removed.--Dacy69 19:28, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

If an article has no references, and you are unable to find them yourself, you can tag the article with the template. Note that it is more helpful to tag individual sentences with the {{Fact}} template. If a particular claim in an article lacks citation and is doubtful, consider placing after the sentence or removing the claim. Consider the following in deciding which action to take:

• If it is doubtful but not harmful to the whole article, use the {{Fact}} tag to ask for source verification, but remember to go back and remove the claim if no source is produced within a reasonable time.
• If it is doubtful and harmful, you should remove it from the article; you may want to move it to the talk page and ask for a source, unless you regard it is as very harmful or absurd, in which case it should not be posted to a talk page either. Use your common sense. Do not be inappropriately cautious about removing unsourced material; it is better for Wikipedia to say nothing on an issue than to present false or misleading material.

All unsourced and poorly sourced contentious material about living persons should be removed from articles and talk pages immediately. It should not be tagged.

It was more than 2 months.--Dacy69 19:39, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

Interview

In April 1993 He gave an interview to a British journalist. In which he said "Azerbaijan has expansionist designs which go way beyond Artsakh and include the take over of Zangezour, the southern part of present day Armenia . So we know very well that if we don't resist here, the war will continue into what is known as Armenia right now". The video of said interview can be found at the bottom of this article. Youtube video #2 at 4 min mark. Vartanm 22:53, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

Good! you, who simply claim everywhere that this is Azeri POV on my and other's edit, just produced an example of strict POV. You need to get acquainted with Wiki rules, especially those related to NPOV, POV and OR. Here is no place for assumptions. Strict facts and referenced opinion. There is a bunch of opinions on both sides of border (Azerbaijan and Armenia) that opposite side is going to expand its territory up to the end of earth. In Wiki article we need to state facts and NPOV.

And it will be good if in section NK we get references to neutral sources. The whole section is just fiction, whch should be deleted.--Dacy69 20:57, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

stict POV? this is the talk page. You wanted a citation of what he said, so I produced it.[7] I haven't changed the article or added the source. Oh, and before your claim that Hetq.am is armenian POV. Your dear friend Adil doesn't think so. [8] May I remind you that this article was locked because of your revert war? Vartanm 22:39, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

• "The whole section is just fiction, which should be deleted". Deleted???? why deleted. Why not improved. This proves your negative view towards Armenian articles. You want to delete everything you don't like.Vartanm 02:23, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

I am here responsible for myself and not for Adil or someone else. You are welcome to improve the article with neutral sources like I btw provided. And maybe this article was locked because of your reverts.--Dacy69 04:27, 28 February 2007 (UTC) You are welcome to improve

The sources that you provided even if neutral, were irrelevant. Thats why they were removed. Vartanm 04:31, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

It is only your POV. I believe they are perfectly relevant because they mention terrorist Melkonian.

As I suggested, we need third party involvement. No one cared to provide third party opinion even I've put a note on the relevant page. I haven't filed mediation request because this case now under consideration of arbitration committee. Let's see what their desicion will be.--Dacy69 04:46, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

The only source you had that called him terrorist was a book author, the others didn't say he was a terrorist. This argument here right now is pointless. Lets just wait till the arbitration is over. Vartanm 05:00, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

I don't know what else do you call a person who commits mass attacks against civilian people. I mean, if it's a "freedom fighter", he is definitely not one, as in pursuing his goal he was restricting the freedom of other, innocent, people to live. Actually, this person also quite well fits Turkophobia category, which will be added to the article now. Atabek 05:29, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

Well, it's definitely not a Turkophobe.

Turkophobia is the fear of the growing Muslim and Turkish communities in Europe. That category is being severely misused as I have seen your past contributions add it to articles such as ASALA and other affiliated Armenian guerrilla fighters. Melkonian never expressed any hatred or "fear" of Turks and actually was quite compassionate to Azerbaijanis during the war.Armenians who took part in those attacks were doing it less out of hatred for Turks and more for hatred against Turkish-sponsored denial of the Genocide.

Unless you have some direct proof showing Melkonian going off on a tirade about how much he hated Turks and wanted to kill every which one, that cat is going to be yanked. The same goes for all other articles that have been listed under this category.--MarshallBagramyan 05:49, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

The "denial" was invented in late 1990s, in 1970s the attacks were directed at random against Turkish targets. Indeed, one need not to go far but to read the book of Melkonian's own brother, to understand that he was driven by Turkophobia. Melkonian's claim and criticism of Hagopyan that attacks need be limited only at Turkish targets, means nothing other than Turkophobia. Again, I don't understand why this basic fact is being disputed? The very core of Armenian question is intolerance of Turkey and Turks, attempts to divide, carve territories from this country. What's wrong with just admitting the truth. There is nothing anti-Armenian in adding Turkophobia category in this article. Atabek 06:22, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

Please do not turn this into a "battle along national lines." Saying that the core of the Armenian question is intolerance against Turks and attempts to carve up Azerbaijan simply isn't appropriate, especially as there was a request for arbitration over such issues that resulted in punitive measures being taken against many members of the Armenia and Azerbaijan Wikiprojects. -- Augustgrahl 13:38, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

There is no "battle along national lines" involved in claiming that the person who openly stated and killed civilian Turks or Azeris as a means of achieving his ideological objective is a Turkophobe. This is a fact, which isn't disputable. And it has absolutely nothing to do with ArbCom case or its injunctions. Atabek 16:41, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

You are interpreting Melkonian's book and his brother's intentions. His brother wanted to target Turkish officials who worked in concert with the Turkish government to deny the genocide. Peaceful resistance against the denial began in 1965, not the 1990s, and after lobbying and protests failed after some time, some Armenians took part in terrorist attacks to compel Turkey's government to accept what it had done. Some Armenians joined all for the money, while most did it out of frustration against the denial.

You have yet to offer any sources, thus justifying the exclusion of that ridiculous cat. --MarshallBagramyan 16:58, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

"..."-phobe means the person intolerant towards certain "..." idea, nation, origin, country, which as you spelled above was the clear objective of Melkonian. He wanted to "target Turkish" (not Swedish, French, Japanese, etc.) "officials who worked in concert with the Turkish" (not Ottoman, English, French, Russian, etc.) --- so, he was a Turkophobe. In addition, the Armenian "Genocide" is claimed to be in 1915, during Ottoman Empire, which did not exist since 1920. Turkish republic and what's called "Turkey's government" was established with the start of Republic in 1923. Accepting or denying something clearly not committed by that government is the right of that person, government, but blaming someone for so called "denial", doing so on purely ethnic basis, and further convincing yourself that it did happen and any denier is worth getting murdered or attacked, is clearly phobic/intolerant if not criminal in nature. In addition, if the "genocide" was something that undeniably happened, it would not require decades of paid political campaigning, terrorist attacks or blackmail, but a single tribunal court case -- especially considering the level of Western support for Armenian question in Turkey. Atabek 17:53, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

I think what it all boils down to is that the ASALA was seeking political change as its foremost goal. While hatred of the Turkish people possibly motivated members to commit acts of murder, the organization was mainly trying to force the government of Turkey to do something that it wouldn't do without violent coercion. It seems to me like original research when trying to determine if Melkonian's motivations were more racially or politically motivated. -- Augustgrahl 18:23, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

Turkophobia as defined is directed not only against Turkish people, but also against Turkish culture, Republic of Turkey and many times simply Turkic states. Again, you can claim that the objective of Melkonian was to force Turkey to do something (which he and his comrades failed at), but killing a representatives of a single ethnicity with objective of forcing the country of that ethnicity to accept certain claim is phobic against that ethnicity and that country. Nothing surprising or demeaning here. Atabek 19:08, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

The Turkish diplomats were not targeted because of their ethnicity but the government under which they served. Targeting members of a government and members of an ethnic group are different things. Really, this was a case of Turkish-government-ophobia. -- Augustgrahl 20:02, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

I provided you above with definition of Turkophobia, which says it includes hatred against the Republic of Turkey. Turkish government is appointed by Turkish people govern the state of Turkey, so the object of phobia is the same. Atabek 01:00, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Ok....that's still your own interpretation filled with conjecture and with no clear proof. Melkonian never expressed a hatred against Turks and in fact sympathized with the Turkish leftist-Marxist movement of the 1970s and his notable treatment of Azerbaijanis during the conflict.--MarshallBagramyan 20:04, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

Notable treatment of Azerbaijanis? You mean like this? Hitler massacred 6 million Jews, and loved a Jewish girl in his youth. Sure... he wasn't anti-Semitic :) I just wonder how far can the limit of imagination, about calling the member of a terrorist organization killing civilians as a "freedom fighter" , be pushed. Atabek 01:00, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Melkonian was nowhere near Khojaly and for your information, he condemned the fact that Armenian soldiers fired upon them while they were fleeing through the pass. And please rein in your sockpuppets.--MarshallBagramyan 01:04, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Bagramyan, were you present with Melkonian in Karabakh to know where he was? Or is this another one of those self-convincing claims? And before accusing me of sockpuppets, helplessly so, please, watch your own editing behavior with regards to WP:NPA and WP:AGF. Atabek 17:31, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

::sigh:: In his biography, there is an entire chapter called "No Discipline", a phrase Melknonian uses when describing the actions of some of the men after the battle. The pseudo claim of Turkophobia is still going to be left out; as of yet, you have offered nothing but your personal interpretations. --MarshallBagramyan 16:32, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

On most recent deletions

Before anybody flips out and goes for the "History" tab, I want to say that I removed much of the content on the article not because there was anything particularly wrong with it (it did however have some POV problems and prose errors) but that the organization of it was messy and it's much better to work on these articles from the ground up (i.e., from Melkonian's early life to his war years and finally, death). The article was also missing many sources so I also hope to fix this by using a combination of sources primarily drawn from Markar Melkonian's biography of his brother but also news articles and journals.

I will hope that the article will soon reach FA status similar to the Ivan Bagramyan page so I'm very open to suggestions and critiques. Much thanks and with regards, --Marshal Bagramyan 06:04, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

--Irukan 06:17, 10 November 2007 (UTC) I think it will be much better to prepare fixed version of the article and then to replace existing variant by it, when it will be ready (It can take a lot of time). Meanwhile it will be better to leave the article in it's last edition. It will be also good stimul to prepare fixed variant ASAP. Sorry.

Hey Marshal, you can't just delete whole sections of an article like that without discussion! There is months of work in that article and if you feel you need to delete a section, you must first discuss it. Reverting. Serouj 01:40, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

Reverted the IP's addition of the Words to Avoid. VartanM (talk) 20:40, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

Moreover, are you kidding about FA? There are a whole host of issues that need to be resolved. In particular, calling the place of his death as Karabagh instead of its true name and flag of Artsakh. I think it would be more accurate and proper to call the region Artsakh instead of Stalin's given name of Karabakh. Don't you agree? Monte Melkonian (talk) 18:55, 7 April 2011 (UTC)

Recent edits (place of death, flag icon, Jason Bourne) - moved from User_talk:Monte_Melkonian#Your_edits_to_Monte_Melkonian

I have reverted several of your edits to the subject page, for several reasons. First, your use of the term Artsakh to describe the place of his death may or may not be supported by the source, already in the article, that identifies where he died. Second, the term Artsakh appears - judging by the very Wikipedia page to which you linked - to be an ancient designation for the area, and not its present day name (except perhaps to local inhabitants). Third, your surmises about The Bourne Identity are just that. If Monte was the model for Jason Bourne, please find a reliable source who says so - then perhaps it can be woven into the article. In short the edits seem to violate a variety of Wikipedia policies and I ask that you not insert them again. Thanks. JohnInDC (talk) 18:53, 7 April 2011 (UTC)

I would add that, if you feel strongly about these issues (and I gather that you do), you should raise them on the article's Talk page, where other editors can discuss them and reach a consensus about how to go forward. Just making them again without discussing them will in all likelihood eventually get you blocked. Thanks. JohnInDC (talk) 19:00, 7 April 2011 (UTC

No problem. As I mentioned before, please don't inflame passions by putting contentious names of the location of his death. Moreover, don't inflame passions by deleting the current Armenian tricolors on the place of his death. Please revert the changes. And then we can discuss calmly on the discussion pages. Melkonian was a hero to Armenians of Artsakh and not to Azeris. If you get my drift. Thanks in advance. Monte Melkonian (talk) 19:04, 7 April 2011 (UTC)

It is not a matter of adding or removing inflammatory language. It's a matter of putting in properly sourced material. As best I can tell - and I am no expert - the region today is called Nagorno-Karabakh. Artsakh is its ancient name, used by Armenians. The original text of the article - before you changed it - described his place of death as "in the abandoned Azeri village of Merzuli", within Azerbaijan. The article seems to be correct, using today's description of the area. Again I am not well-versed in any of this, but I don't think your edits are consistent with Wikipedia policies, and perhaps you should take it up at WP:EAR or somewhere else where other editors can weigh in. JohnInDC (talk) 19:14, 7 April 2011 (UTC)

Perhaps we should both take up with WP:EAR? However, I believe inflaming passions and engaging in bating also violates policy. Therefore, please revert back my edits so as not to insult and inflame passions as the region has always been called Artsakh since the dawn of time. You seem to be biased on having the Azeri flag and improper name of the region. My sources were within Wikpedia. To call it improper is bind boggling. Please discuss. Monte Melkonian (talk) 19:21, 7 April 2011 (UTC)

I'm going to move this discussion to the bottom of the Talk page for Monte Melkonian. I agree that you cited to Wikipedia, but first, Wikipedia articles can't serve as "reliable sources" in other articles, and second, the articles to which you linked plainly indicated that Artsakh is an historical name for the region (or one used by, perhaps exclusively by, Armenians) and that the region is today known as Nagorno-Karabakh. Finally, please be careful with accusations of bias. They are often poorly informed, and often corrupt rational discussion. Thanks. JohnInDC (talk) 19:27, 7 April 2011 (UTC)

That is true about WIkpedia. Therefore, I should go to Wikpedia and pull up the sources and call it by what the people of the region call it. Would you be agreeable to having the sources of the name of the location be called Artsakh if the sources are not strictly from Wikpedia? Morevoer, would you be agreeable in not having the inhabitant's enemy's flag placed at his place of his death so as not to inflame passions and appear as though you are bating? Do you see how your editing might be interpreted as bias? Moreover, would you be agreeable in identifying the factual similarities between the movie Borne Identity and Monte Melkonian's life without stating that the movie or novel were inspired by his life? Thank you kindly. I think things would really be discussed calmly if you first remove the Azeri flag so as not to give the appearance of bias. Monte Melkonian (talk) 19:45, 7 April 2011 (UTC)

I removed the flag once; another editor appears to have restored it. To be honest I'm not sure what Wikipedia policies call for in this case (on the whole I personally disfavor flag icons in articles as just so much clutter) and so I'm going to leave it as is and hope that you don't interpret it as any indication about my views on the subject. Perhaps you should go have a look at Wikipedia:Naming conventions (geographic names) and see if you can find anything there. Also Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style_(icons)#Flags. As for Bourne, again, the adorned observation or comparison is original research and not properly included. Find a reliable source who talks about Bourne and Melkonian in that way and then maybe it can be included. (I have to say that I regard it as kind of a trivial point.) JohnInDC (talk) 20:00, 7 April 2011 (UTC)

Simple answer re the flag - none should be there, per Wikipedia:FLAGBIO#Do_not_use_flags_to_indicate_locations_of_birth_and_death. I've removed both birth and death flag icons. JohnInDC (talk) 20:05, 7 April 2011 (UTC)

Thank you very much JohnInDC for your help. All according to Wikipedia policies. Dighapet (talk) 20:11, 7 April 2011 (UTC)

I don't think the place of his birth is problematic. I do agree with the naming conventions for sources and will do as suggested. With regards to the Borne reference, I do see how it is an observation without sources. However, I know this may be a political solution, but references to Borne really quell concerns about bias (not that I am accusing you of it) the emphatic order to the references of ASLA. I think more emphasis to his disenchantment with ASLA and his quest to find his identity should be more emphasized so as not to have his perceived enemies define his identity. I hope I addressed some of their concerns. Thx again. Monte Melkonian (talk) 20:23, 7 April 2011 (UTC)

Recommend not including any reference to The Bourne Identity unless it includes 3d party reliable sources. Semper Fi! FieldMarine (talk) 20:36, 7 April 2011 (UTC)

I recommend otherwise. Semper Fi Macbeth. Moreover, could we start off in his youth rather than the emphatic order of his great conquests? Just a thought. Monte Melkonian (talk) 21:01, 7 April 2011 (UTC)

Bourne? :-))) next thing this user will compare to will be the Terminator or Rambo :-)) Monte is known as an international terrorist. Google search Monte Melkonian and you will see who he is. Very simple. If someone wants to make him a hero, should make him a hero in his dreams, not Wikipedia. Dighapet (talk) 21:20, 7 April 2011 (UTC)

The fact that an editor would take the name of the page they are editing does not give the impression of NPOV. Semper Fi! FieldMarine (talk) 21:41, 7 April 2011 (UTC)

Please refrain from your inflammatory remarks on this discussion page. Moreover, he eliminated a lot of Turks, Azeris, Isrealis, perhaps some Marines as well. Don't know. He was a solid Killer and hero. An Angel of Death (if you will) Somebody that a lot of young Armenian boys would have emulated. I would like to see a body count. However, that might be inflammatory as well. Nevertheless, could we start off with his youth so as to get a timeline? The article appears disjointed. It is almost like Quinten Tarantino movie. Moreover, why is there a discrepancy as to his place of death being Azerbadeljan instead Nagorno-Karabagh? Does an editor have particular information we don't?Monte Melkonian (talk) 22:08, 7 April 2011 (UTC)

Please explain how any of my comments are inflamatory. Thanks & Semper Fi! FieldMarine (talk) 23:59, 7 April 2011 (UTC)

I suggest you never put smily faces on professional soldiers and killers. They might come back to haunt you in Lebanon or other far off lands. Semper Fi Macbeth. Monte Melkonian (talk) 01:26, 8 April 2011 (UTC) Another thing I forgot to mention is that the Azeri forces hired the Taliban to fight Mekonian and the Armenian forces. Your comments are highly inflammatory to the United States Marine Corps. I suggest you do some further reading to understand this topic really well. Semper Fi Macbeth. Monte Melkonian (talk) 01:43, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

Could I get a neutral point of view by a neutral editor regarding his place of death as Nagorno-Karabagh. I keep encountering an editor, without explanation, putting Azerbadeljan as place of death instead of Nagorno-Karabagh. Thx very much. Monte Melkonian (talk) 22:19, 7 April 2011 (UTC)

Well if no one has a point of view on my inquiry, I will be making some changes. I guess there is no dispute as to how I change the emphatic order of his biography. Semper Fi Macbeth. Monte Melkonian (talk) 23:35, 7 April 2011 (UTC)

Hi there, coming to this as a neutral point of view. I'm a bit baffled by the Jason Borne references, and am glad that's stopped. About the infobox issue, I do want to explain that it doesn't matter where a location is considered today, its where it was when the event happened. If a person was born in St. Petersburg in 1950, their infobox says "Leningrad, Soviet Union". For Gevork Kotiantz, its listed as "Russian Empire". As such, I don't see a problem with listing the location of his death as being in Azerbaijan. This is about specifying the location of the village for referencing, so an unfamiliar reader could find it on a map, and Azerbaijan is still the dejure jurisdiction.

I do see that the Nagorno-Karabagh Republic was self-proclaimed in January 1992, and Melkonian died in July 1993, but Wikipedia usually prefers the internationally recognized term for a location. The country, however, doesn't need to be specified in these situations, and its also fine to leave that blank, like "Visalia, California". So "Azerbaijan" is fine, blank is fine, but I do think you start getting into trouble if you list the country as "the Nagorno-Karabagh Republic".

The flag icon is a separate issue, and infoboxes don't need to include these. They're really just for lists of individuals where nationality needs to be specified with an icon. Putting them in infoboxes is a bit of a popular vanity anyway, and there are actually movements to limit their overuse. In the text, the country also doesn't needed to be specified, but I would expect the dispute over the general location to be understood from the prose leading up to the village name. Additionally, the dates for birth and death are usually included in the infobox along with their location.-- Patrick, _oѺ^∞ 18:21, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

Thanks very much for the help, Patrick. JohnInDC (talk) 19:06, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

Ok but the problem is that the village where it is located is not even in NK which is claimed by Armenians and it is even NOT occupied now. Please go to Merzili page and you will see. Dighapet (talk) 23:42, 9 April 2011 (UTC)

On place of death Azerbaijanis want Azerbaijan Armenians want Nagorno Karabakh Republic Cant you all settle on just Nagorno Karabakh? It avoids political lebels, and instead uses geographic ones.Mark Barsky (talk) 06:18, 12 April 2011 (UTC)

Revising the Conduct part

This part does not cite any sources and appear to be heavily POVed. Need someone with interest / expertise to revise it. Leminh91 (talk) 22:33, 20 May 2011 (UTC)

Quotes

I took out the following (while some of these might be worth adding, I think they should be referenced and properly spelled):

==Quotes== − "The azeris are arming two armies: theirs and ours". − − "May god keep Elchibey in good health". − − "Now we've reached the Kelbajar road, when we want to, we'll advance. The issue is whether or not we want to. We'd prefer if the peaceful population gets out of this place safely, and then we'll advance. But it looks like their soldiers won't allow it. So maybe we'll start up again". − − "There are no boots on their feet.Our boys don't have boots, so when we hit an azeri, we take his shoes". − − ""Every Armenian,every single Armenian has a right to be in Martuni, to have a voice in Martuni, to work in Martuni and defend it". − − "The Azerbaijan government has clearly decided to empty the armenians out, and therefore there is no choice but to resist". − − "We don't have the right to lose in this war". − − Bold text==Quotes about Monte== − *"Monte won't let the enemy set foot on our land". − − *"Monte doesn't say charge! He says follow me". −

• "He had the mentality of a professional soldier, concer for his surroundings, good will and an uneasy conscience".

− − *"Where Monte:Where victory!". − − *"Monte?? : The god of Armenia".

--Morel (talk) 16:48, 9 March 2012 (UTC)

He was imprisoned on charges of terrorism

Melkonian was imprisoned on charges of terrorism. Just read the preamble of the article: "In ASALA, he took part in the assassinations of several Turkish diplomats in Europe during the early to mid-1980s and was later arrested and sent to prison in France.". Please discuss before removing appropriate category. --Interfase (talk) 12:00, 28 April 2014 (UTC)

It dosen't says anything. This is not the Azerbaijani Wikipedia where you can present him as a terrorist, starting the article in this way; "Monte Melkonian - Armenian terrorist". No need to add fake categories. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 46.130.33.96 (talk) 12:42, 28 April 2014 (UTC)

Why did you remember Azerbaijani Wikipedia? More neutral and reliable sources say that Melkonian was terrorist. See, for example, these:

Monte Melkonian preceded me as an archaeology student at U.C. Berkeley by a fewyears. His pathological sense of duty turned him into a terrorist assassin for the Armenian Secret Army for the Liberation of Armenia (ASALA). Source: John Brady Kiesling. "Diplomacy Lessons. Realism for an Unloved Superpower". Potomac Books, Inc., 2006. Page 298. ISBN 9781597970174.

Or...

One of the very few American-born members of ASALA was Monte Melkonian. He led the splinter movement against Hagopian's wing, which had been responsible for the Orly terror bombing. Melkonian was probably the most articulate of the participation in the Armenian terrorist movements. Source: The encyclopedia of the modern Middle East. V. I. Page 227. ISBN 9780028970615.

Not enough? --Interfase (talk) 12:57, 28 April 2014 (UTC)

And what WP:RS do you have that says he was convicted on charges of terrorism? Étienne Dolet (talk) 17:42, 28 April 2014 (UTC)

Careful with that goalpost, Mr. Dolet. BSG3021 (talk) 00:11, 19 January 2024 (UTC)

Monte was not beheaded

azeri propagandists are constantly trying to spread their propaganda, claiming Monte was beheaded by ibad huseynov. Monte had an open casket funeral which alone debunks this ridiculous claim. azer general talib mammadov even stated huseynov did not kill Monte. [9] Stop trying to spread this BS. Ninetoyadome (talk) 06:19, 24 September 2017 (UTC)

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