Talk:Morenada

Rocha Torrez text debate

This text was put by the author herself - don´t worry if it also appears in her web-pages...

The author needs to read Wikipedia:What Wikipedia is not and Wikipedia:Notability, to be sure of making appropriate contributions. Deb (talk) 16:39, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

I don't think that it is a big tragedy if someone inserts texts from his own website, if that text is neutral. For example, you can insert here a picture posted on your website, a recipe, the image of your bed (to illustrate the article entitled "Bed") etc. My problem with this article is that it deals with the origins and controversies among different historians, but it doesn't describe me in a clear way what is this dance genre all about. So, I am still in darkness about this otherwise probably very interesting folk dance.Mazarin07 (talk) 08:36, 9 June 2009 (UTC) Now, it is my strong belief that Morenada is a dance immitating the Spanish conquistadores, including their wine barrels and horses. By the way, the loud laughing you can hear actually is immitating the neigh of horses that had such a great shock of the indigenous peoples when they first seen such animals.Mazarin07 (talk) 19:00, 15 June 2009 (UTC)

Viceroyalty of Peru

This has been discussed previously on other articles but it seems a recurrent issue that is not fully understood. The usage of the denomination Viceroyalty of Peru without a reliable source backing this information is highly inaccurate for the following reasons:

1. If in the article the specific year of a certain event is not mentioned, there isn't certainty about which viceroyalty was in exercise during that time, assuming without further information which one is it would constitute original research. More specifically in the context of this article, slavery from Africa was spread throughout several centuries and was also present during the republican period of Bolivia.
2. Wikipedia's Manual of Style states that when a widely accepted English name, in a modern context, exists for a place, we should use it unless there is a wide majority of sources stating otherwise. Most literature in history use the modern name as an horizontal reference of a location, and the period (e.g. Spanish conquest) to identify the historical context of a determined event. So far, most sources use Bolivia instead of any Viceroyalty:
   1. Encyclopaedia Britannica
   2. Richard M. Juang and Noelle Anne Morrissette
   3. Prem Poddar, Rajeev S. Patke and Lars Jensen...etc.
3. Some editors and readers confuse the Viceroyalty of Peru with the modern Republic of Peru the latter acquired its independence in the 1820s together with Bolivia and the usage of this term could be considered misleading and against WP:POINT and WP:NPOV.

Thanks Erebedhel - Talk 01:27, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

Ignorant editors or readers that confuse the Viceroyalty of Peru with the modern Peru is of little importance to the works of Wikipedia. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia where the material needs to have accurate and professional information. There is a reason for the wikilinks: if a reader doesn't understand the meaning of a word or the location of a place, they simply click it and learn more about it.--MarshalN20 | ^Talk 15:31, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

Please restrain yourself from calling other editors "ignorant" remember that this is a global project and not everybody received education in colonial history of the Americas. Professionals use the wording Bolivia as I stated above, the historians and anthropologists: Richard M. Juang, Noelle Anne Morrissette, Prem Poddar, Rajeev S. Patke and Lars Jensen are professionals. Erebedhel - Talk 19:50, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

That's what Wikilinks are there for Ereb. You click them, and (arguably) it magically pops up the encyclopedic term that people did not understand.--MarshalN20 | ^Talk

Origin of the Morenada dance in three places

I reviewed books and articles about morenada dance and I added information about it. I did not find any information or mention about the Morenada dance in colonial times in any colonial book or source. Therefore, I believe that it cannot be affirmed with certainty that the Morenada dance is a colonial dance. The closest that is to the Morenada dance in colonial times are from the books of chroniclers Juan Pasquier, Antonio de Acosta and Bartolome Arzans in the locality of Potosí in Bolivia. In republican times I found three authors who describe the morenada dance in Bolivia, they are Hugh Weddell in 1853, Adolph Bandelier in 1893 and Max Uhle in 1894. However, in Max Uhle's work there is the first mention of the morenada dance in Puno-Peru in 1907 and there is no reference to the morenada dance in Peru prior to that date in any book or source of information. The first group of morenada dancers in Peru called "Morenada Orkapata" that was founded in 1955 describe that they imitated the morenada dance from Copacabana Bolivia. The record of morenada in Bolivia is from 1853 which accurately describes the Hugh Weddell morenada dance and there is a difference of half a century until the first mention of the morenada dance in Peru. Therefore, coinciding with the American researcher Nancy Rosoff, Puno Peru cannot be included as a possible place of origin of the Morenada dance for the reasons I described above. EKP70 (talk) 16:28, 22 September 2021 (UTC)

Here are three sources that refute your claims:

1. Fernando Rios, Panpies & Ponchos (Oxford University Press, 2020): "This classification stemmed from the genre's overt allusions to Afro-Bolivians, which clearly signal that the morenada originated in Spanish colonial times and not the pre-Columbian age"
2. Mark Brill, Music of Latin America and the Caribbean (Taylor & Francis, 2017): "Various Afroyugueño dances emereged during colonial slavery, including the tundique, the negrito, and the morenada, all of which remain popular to this day"
3. William Kladky, A Cultural Encyclopedia of Extraordinary and Exotic Customs from Around the World, ed. Javier Galvan (ABC-CLIO, 2014): "One of the most traditional dances is la morenada ("Dance of the Black Slaves"), which also goes back to the colonial era, and it has servants mocking the social dances held in the viceroyalty's ballrooms."

Please stop vandalizing the article with nationalist original research. Thanks.--MarshalN20 ^✉🕊 19:44, 22 September 2021 (UTC)

I'm not doing original research, the quotes you make clearly mention the Afro-Bolivian population and do not mention Peru as a possible place of origin of the Morenada dance. In any case, if there is a possibility that the morenada originated in colonial times, it is specifically indicated to the locality of Potosí. Please cite a book or research source prior to 1907 that mentions or describes Morenada dance in Peru. I emphasize again there is no book or source that cites the Morenada dance prior to 1907 in Peru. and there is half a century of difference from the first specific description of the Morenada dance that Hugh Weddell made in Bolivia.EKP70 (talk) 11:18, 23 September 2021 (UTC)

I am not going to engage in an original research debate. I am also not contesting the "origin of the dance" (regardless of wherever exactly that may be). I am against the nationalist edits made to the article that assign an exclusive nationality to a colonial dance from the Viceroyalty of Peru. Please stop vandalizing the article with your nationalist POV.--MarshalN20 ^✉🕊 15:58, 23 September 2021 (UTC)

@MarshalN20: I don't agree that you accuse me of making nationalist editions, I'm adding information from authors of different nationalities. I reiterate Puno Peru cannot be included as the place of origin of the morenada dance, because there are no books or research sources prior to 1907 that mention or describe the morenada dance in Puno Peru. Even in the appointments you made, they don't mention this place as the origin of the Morenada dance, even in the colonial era, therefore the origin of the Morenada dance is only discussed in three locations: La Paz, Oruro and Potosí.Below I quote the sources:

1. Rosoff, Nancy. A Morenada Dance Costume: An Example of the Interconnection of the Americas, Spain and Africa.

2. Weddell, Hugh Algernon. Voyage dans la Nord de la Bolivie (in French).

3. Bandelier, Adolph. The Islands Of Titicaca And Koati.

4. Uhle, Max. Los bailes de los Aimaras (in Spanish). EKP70 (talk) 11:27, 24 September 2021 (UTC)

As the late David Lowenthall wrote: "UNESCO inscription of the diablada, the morenada and other dances, costumes, and music had untowards results. In nationalizing altiplano-wide ceremonial practices, it transformed ongoing culture into inventoried heritage, contested as national identity and tourist specialty. When Peru names as heritage what Bolivians see as theirs, Bolivians lose, and vice versa. Charges of theft and plagiarism make culture a scarce resources to protect by patent and copyright. [...] Moreover, while celebrating indigeneity as the hearth and heart of national identities, Andean culture-boundary vigilantes remove control from indigenous performers to mestizo-dominated state administrators" (Quest for the Unity of Knowledge, 2018).

Therefore, your attempts at assigning an exclusive nationality to an Altiplano-wide dance of colonial origin (before Bolivia ever existed as a nation), is nationalist vandalism. Please refrain from promoting this toxicity in Wikipedia.--MarshalN20 ^✉🕊 22:41, 24 September 2021 (UTC)

@MarshalN20: I consider that your arguments are wrong

First: Based on the authors I mentioned earlier, the Morenada dance is a mestizo dance, it was never classified as an indigenous dance.

Second: You try to show that the altiplano is a homogeneous zone which is totally wrong. The altiplano is an extensive geographical area where different dances arose in each region. The altiplano includes the countries of Bolivia, Peru, Argentina and Chile. Argentina and Chile, despite having an important territory in the altiplano and a considerable indigenous population and colonial history, publicly acknowledge the origin of Bolivian dances, including the Morenada dance. Although dances arose in colonial times, they have a specific place of origin and development, as is the case with the Morenada dance, in which Puno-Peru lacks any historical foundations and evidence. We cannot affirm that the morenada dance arose in the locality of Puno Peru just because it is located in the altiplano. There is no evidence of the morenada dance in Puno-Peru prior to 1907. It is wrong to affirm that the Morenada dance is a dance that originated in the entire altiplano. Being that countries that have territory in the highlands such as Chile and Argentina recognize that the morenada has a Bolivian origin. That morenada dance is practiced and popularized in other regions of the highlands other than its place of origin such as Puno-Peru, Arica-Chile and Argentina, does not mean that the dance has also originated in other places where it spread. For example, we cannot affirm that mariachi originated in all of Latin America just because Mariachi it is popular in Latin America. As much as mariachi are practiced outside of Mexico, their origin will always be a specific place in Mexico even if it originated in colonial times even if Mexico did not yet exist as a country. The same happens with the morenada dance, it is popular in other countries that have altiplano and that does not mean that its origin is in all the countries where the morenada dance is popular.

Third: I quote the documents of the Intergovernmental Committee for the Safeguarding of the Intangible Cultural Heritage of UNESCO: "The dances, music and costumes of the people of Puno (Peru) are accompanied by the dances, music and costumes of the people of Bolivia." Which clearly expresses that in Puno Peru dances of Bolivian origin are practiced.

I also quote the Peruvian researcher from Puno, Américo Valencia Chacón: "It is necessary that the people of Puno, its enlightened classes, its intellectuals and folkloric and cultural institutions, always bear in mind that the enormous variety of traditional Aymara and Quechua peasant dances spread throughout the Peruvian Altiplano constitute the only basis for the recognition of Puno as the folkloric capital of the country. Puno is not the folkloric capital of Peru, as some suppose, due to the colorful modern mestizo ensembles of Bolivian origin, the so-called "Conjunto de traje de luces", that in the last fifty years have proliferated everywhere in the Peruvian Altiplano..." (UNESCO y Candelaria: Una propuesta frente a una gran responsabilidad, 2015, in spanish). Valencia Chacón clearly affirms that the mestizo dances called the "traje de luces" are of Bolivian origin. Among those dances the morenada is included.

I will also mention the Peruvian investigation of Vive Candelaria in which it states that the first morenada dance ensemble called "Morenada Orkapata" in Peru was founded after they contemplated and imitated the morenada dance of the Copacabana region in Bolivia.

Peruvian musician and researcher Roberto Valencia Melgar criticized the extinction of Peruvian dances from Puno for replacing them with Bolivian dances: "Those of us who were born in this legendary land, and lived its traditions and customs, today have to regret the absence of typical dances, which with their sincere devotion rejoiced the city, splendidly fostering an authentic Puno party atmosphere. Today has given way to the kitsch of presenting expensive dances imported from the neighboring republic of Bolivia ... The IV Departmental Folk Contest of Puno held on February 4, considered the most important in the Department, reliably demonstrates the absorbing volume of foreign dances, since of the 33 dances presented, 21 have been indisputably Bolivian." ( Puno: Capital Folklórica del Perú?, 1968, in spanish)

For everything described in previous lines, I consider that it is enough to rule out Puno Peru as a possible origin of the Morenada dance and as a possible Peruvian dance. I have not yet proceeded to cite Bolivian authors and researchers, which are extensive research works, because I do not want you to continue to interpret it as an act of nationalist vandalism. EKP70 (talk) 15:23, 25 September 2021 (UTC)

You're clearly cherry picking information and continue engaging in original research. First you claimed that the Morenada was not a colonial dance. I provided sources that demonstrated otherwise. Next you claimed that the Morenada is exclusively Bolivian because of its origin. I provided another source (from the late emeritus historian David Lowenthall) that indicates why "nationalizing" regional dances indigenous to the Altiplano is wrong. Now you're going back again in circles to muddle the discussion. Your behavior in this article and its talk page is very unprofessional and unbecoming of a Wikipedian.--MarshalN20 ^✉🕊 16:52, 25 September 2021 (UTC)