Talk:Moscow Metro/Archive 4

L1/12

Please see the archive for the discussion.

Please leave any new comments on this page and not the archive.

Re-phrase?

The shallow stations comprise 65 of the pillar-type (a large portion of them following the infamous "sorokonozhka" design), 19 "single-vaults" (Kharkov technology) and three single-decked. This phrase is incredibly hard to read due to the dual meaning of "comprise" (it is both "consist of" and "constitute"). When the subject is plural, the second meaning is typical (as in "These few men comprise his entire army"). Can someone please re-phrase the sentence? I tried, but was reverted. Dimawik 09:01, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

Technopark

Hi there,

In Expansion plans for 2008 "Technopark" station is mentioned, between between Avtozavodskaya and Kolomenskaya.

First of all, it sounds weird, because between Avtozavodskaya and Kolomenskaya there's mostly a bridge over Moskva. By its name, i guess that this "station" is actually a kind of depot. But that's just a wild guess.

Furthermore, Technopark is a disambig page, which points to several places called Technopark, none of which are in Moscow. You may want to fix it. I didn't want to fix it myself, because i am not an expert in the Wikipedia Metrophiles' conventions about article names etc.

Thanks for your attention. --Amir E. Aharoni 14:56, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

You are right — the link lead nowhere, thank you for pointing that out. I added an article stub for Technopark The MM Station now and fixed the link directly to it.

And it is a station allright, not some kind of a maintenance depot. Zamoskvoretskaya Line has two such depots allready (Sokol and Zamoskvoretskoe) and I don't think there are any plans to add a third one presently. As for the bridge thing — not to worry, the Moskva River is only about 200 meter wide there and the section between the two existing stations is more than 3 kilometres long.

--Sascha. 12:02, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

Russian, anyone?

If anyone here knows Russian, can they help with the line articles? They're in desperate need of attention. I've looked at the articles in Russian, and they contain a wealth of information (paragraphs and paragraphs). Only the basic outline is needed; we can expand it. Geoking66 07:09, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

Please see WP:SOVMETRO and its talk page, the collaboration point of folks working on metro articles.—Ëzhiki (Igels Hérissonovich Ïzhakoff-Amursky) • (yo?); 16:14, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

New Template Design

I was thinking that the line templates (i.e. {{Sokolnicheskaya Line}}) should be designed to go at the bottom of the page, rather than along the side. I know that the Russian articles use the same style that the English ones use, but since the articles themselves usually don't contain much information, it would look nicer and waste less space if they were put at the bottom of the article. The template style that I'm proposing is taken from the Czech Moscow Metro articles. This would be the example of a station article from the Sokolnicheskaya line.

Geoking66 07:25, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

Already discussed on WP:SOVMETRO, pointless. All of the articles look nicer with a side template. --Kuban Cossack 12:35, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

Filyovskaya branch

Anyone know about the branch of the Filyovskaya line?? Some external links do color this branch as if it were a separate line. Any info?? Georgia guy 16:27, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

Anyone knows exactly what? I've used it recently and it worked as a branch — with some trains running form AS to Krylatskoe and some from AS to Mezhdunarodnaya. --Sascha. 19:38, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

Fiction train

Elk why did you remove the edit about new trains. You mention fiction, but it's no more fiction then new stations to be opened. There are clear dates, prices, photos of the new trains (not just CAD mocck-up) quotes from Metro chief with launch dates... Can you explain what you mean? Does not seem like a fiction at all? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 64.172.210.53 (talk • contribs) 03:42, 23 May 2007. Moved from User_talk:Elk_Salmon

Here is the link with images quotes and so on: Link —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 64.172.210.53 (talk • contribs) 03:51, 23 May 2007.

There was no any interviews with MM head. Is it so difficult to check release date? Elk Salmon 00:55, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Why do you say that there was no speach by MM chief? What about this (from the liink that I provided): "Below you can read excerpts from the speech by chief of the Moscow metro Dmitry Gayev, which was delivered at a March press conference in the Main Department of the Moscow metro". Are you saying there never was such conference or is that Mr. Dmitry Gayev never did any (or this) speach...? The web site for this link is from (what seems to be ) a very reputable company that designed many web sites in Russian and other contries. I doupt that they would post an outright lie.

As far as release date for the design it was in 2006 and it seems that design was indeed delivered (thus the pictures from inside of new cars), which seems to prove again that it's not a fiction. Why do you say it's a fiction?

I decided that it would be best to summarize why it appears to be a real development and not a fiction:

• The link is from a very reputable source
• The link is from the company that is directly involved with the project
• This link has quotes from a speech given by Dmitry Gayev {Moscow Metro chief) who should be the most knowledgeable person in this topic.
• Dmitry Gayev clearly mentiones the date for the launch of a new service:

The second project is being launched in May next year.

• And the price for the new service (deluxe cars):

A ride in a business-class car will cost you only one hundred rubles that you’ll pay in addition to the standard fare.

• The link also mentions the deadline for the design phrase of this project (Release date: 01.04.2006), which I assume was met. I assume this because this page also has photos of the interior for new cars. (Search for "Photos of the first 81-805 railroad car", as other images are probably CAD generated).
• The very fact that there are images of the interior means that project is well into production stage and therefore the launch can indeed happen in May 2008.

None of other elements of this page have been explained to this extend (I think), so I assume that it's enough to put aside the question of whether it's fiction or not. As you can see I put effort into explaining my point, please respect this and explain if you still believe that it's a fiction before you remove anything.

--Hifisoftware 02:26, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

It was an April Fools' Day hoax, just check the release date (1 апреля). Btw, it has already been discussed last year (s. archive).--Sascha. 06:14, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Edits to "Ticketing"

Reference removal of information by Elk Salmon.

I don't understand your reference to '15 years' not being recent. The removed piece never mentioned 15 years.

I don't understand your reference to 'nothing was revalued'. The rouble was revalued in about 1995 by multiplying its value by 1000. During the few years that followed, bank notes were in circulation that had the old and new values. The new notes were in fact identical to the old notes but lacked 3 zeros on the amount. Thus a new note would be marked '20 Roubles' (obviously in Russian) but the equivalent (and otherwise identical) old note was marked 20000 Roubles. I have examples of both notes in my left over currency box from my 1996 visit. 20.133.0.14 14:02, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

Rouble was "denominated" in 1998; both old and new notes were circulating 1998.01.01-1998.12.31. There has never been a note of 20 or 20000 roubles.--achp 18:22, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

I was relying on my memory as my currency box was at home. When I looked, I found that I had a 10 rouble and a 100 rouble note. I also had their 10,000 and 100,000 rouble counterparts. And you were right about something else. My visit, on this occassion, was indeed November 1998 and not 1996 as I had believed. I did make a trip in 1996, but this would have been with the old(er) rouble. I have been so many times that they seem to blur somewhat.20.133.0.14 08:42, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

The well-remembered "Soviet price" of a ride (in 1961-1991) was 5 kop., not 10.--achp 18:22, 23 July 2007 (UTC).

I personally don't remember, but was relying on a BBC documentary which claimed 10 Kopeks (presumably at the time the documentary was made). 20.133.0.14 08:42, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

Exactly. Even before 1961 it was 50 kop., same amount, taking into account the redenomination of 1961. In fact that price, 5/50 kop., was established with the opening of the Metro in 1935 (it went down to 4/40 and even 3/30 in the late 30-th/early 40-th) and was raised to 15 kop. in 1991 [1] Also 5 kop. was not much money, but steel a far cry from a "0.001 of a US cent".

Apart from that, phrases like "under soviet control" or "practically a free ride" do not sound, well, encyclopedic. Or is it just me?--Sascha. 22:55, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

Maybe it didn't come across too well, but I was not suggesting that the cost of the ride was that cheap in real terms, merely what the real value of the coin is today. 20.133.0.14 08:42, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

As always, with Wikipedia, why not replace them with something better? 20.133.0.14 08:42, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

I think we should not put our post in between the lines of other posts, the line of argument would very soon become incomprehensible that way. As for something better – I think it'd better to omit "practically a free ride" entirely? I also don't think it is relevant to the article to compare "a real value" of a coin after a bout of hyperinflation, it could well be omitted too, imo.--Sascha. 09:14, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

The deepest station

The official MM site states that the deepest station in the system is Park Pobedy with 84 meters and that is the figure to go by: Самая глубокая станция «Парк Победы» (84 м) http://www.mosmetro.ru/pages/page_0.php?id_page=99 --Sascha. 17:27, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

L2; where is it??

The map legend at the lower right section of the image in the article reveals an L2, but I can't find any L2 on the map that labels a line similar to the 1 that labels the red line indicating it's Line 1. Where is line L2?? Georgia guy 14:05, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

Л2 (L2) is supposed to be a designation for a second Light Metro Line Solntsevskaya Line (Юго-Западная – Новопеределкино). A couple of years ago it looked like construction work is going to start any time soon. It is moved to 2013 slot now, whether it's final or not is anybody's guess.--Sascha. 14:49, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

Lyublinskaya Line route length

Kuban kazak, can you provide a source for you shorted figure? Mosmetro.ru says its route length is 282.5km. New section itself is 3.72km long. Elk Salmon 07:25, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

Intersting how the same mosmetro gives the length of the Lyblinskaya line as 21.2 you claim it as 21.3. Where did the extra 100 metres come from? Also is it necesarry to go to the detail of 10 metres? --Kuban Cossack 10:57, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

Just for the record: Chkalovskaya-Marino (by picket PK07+10 PK0183+44) [2], thus take away to arrive at a length of 0174+34 or 17.434 km long. Now if Chkalovskaya-Trubnaya is indeed 3.72 km long, then its total length would be 21.154 (which they rounded it up to 21.2). Make your own conclusions. Be my guest to check all the segments like that, but someone here has done that already...and 282.4. Offtopic completely, but may I ask if you will consider joining WP:SOVMETRO.--Kuban Cossack 11:07, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

Cossack, total route length of metro is 282,5km which is stated by the official site. Here, in the table, some of other lines differs a bit from official length. Feel free to correct them if you have full map of pickets. But total route length is official. Elk Salmon 14:16, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

Ok, table versus mosmetro article:

• KFL 26.2 and 26.2
• GZL 36.9 and 36.9
• APL 22.6 and 21.9
• FL 19.0 and 19.0
• Ring 19.4 and 19.4
• KRL 37.6 and 37.8
• TKL 35.9 and 35.9
• Kalinka 13.1 and 13.1
• STL 41.5 and 41.2
• Our LL 21.2 and 21.2
• Kakhovka 3.4 and 3.3
• BLLM 5.5 and 5.5

So it seems we have quite a few inconsistensies, according to the mosmetro -7+2-3-1 = -9 km. In other words the length according to the mosmetro will be a total 283.5. So much for accuracy let's check the pickets:

• KFL:115+98 and 0145+62 -> 26.160
• GZL:146+00 and 0223+38 -> 36.938
• APL:70+28 and 0155+35 -> 22.563 (so much for the mosmetro as being a reliable source)
• FL -> 18.975
• KL -> 19.426
• KRL -> 37.644 (again mosmetro lied)
• TKL -> 35.920
• KalL -> 13.066
• STL -> 41.470 (and again mosmetro lied)
• LL: 23+47 and 0183+44 -> 20.691 (now this I like the best, it is emerged that Chkalovskaya Trubnaya is not 3.72 but instead 3.057 kilometres (do a google earth ruler and it looks like that indeed)
• Just to finish Kkhl -> 3.368 (again mosmetro does not seem to be able to round) and BLLM 5.533

So thus we arrive at a total length of 268.888, do please check the figures again, because I myself am curious on who is right and who is wrong--Kuban Cossack 15:09, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

Can you please also explain how to calculate the distance using pickets? As of ex-ussr metro systems - I know almost nothing about them... Elk Salmon 14:36, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

Very easy, all lines are measured from a set point. Take the + as a decimal, and the presence/absense of a 0 before each picket tells on which side of the point it is. Thus, for example to calculate the distance of Vykhino-Ryazansky Prospekt you simply subtract 131+75 from 150+75 and get 19+00 or 1.9 km however when calculating the distance between say Mayakovskaya and Novokuznetskaya you add 19+53.4 and 020+51.4 and arrive at 40+04.8 or 4.0048 km. It does mean it is accurate to that measurement! Sometimes you will find some lines have combined picket systems, for example GZL and Kakhovka. You know about Moscow Metro, and that is enough to join. --Kuban Cossack 15:09, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

You are relying too much on piquets. Generally, piquets are 100 m long, but there are also odd piquets which are longer or shorter.--achp 17:28, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

True, but these ones are labelled directly midway along the platform.

Of course, I have forgot all about Kalinka, new distance:281.954, much closer, just 1.5 km short of the stated figures. --Kuban Cossack 17:44, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

I've got a sum of 281,754 from your figures twice? Well, my suggestion is to use rounded data from pickets for lines, but to use official 282,5km as total length. Elk Salmon 18:31, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

It all comes down to Trubnaya 3.72, which I got by measuring with a Googlemap ruler, but piquet map says 3.057. If we add correct it to 3.72 we obtain 282.42. Shall we use this figure?--Kuban Cossack 12:59, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

No no, I really got different sum based on your pickets calcs. 281,754. I just summed it yet again in Windows Calc. Again 281,754. Btw, about APL. Here is the very official map of it [3]. Here you can get a length of APL in 21,6km. So pickets might be still a bit wrong. Anyway, I still propose to use the official length 282,5km. Elk Salmon 13:21, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

Expansion plans

I highly oppose a new design of this section. It's non functional and non friendly designed. I suggest to cut the text into separate article Expansion plans of Moscow Metro, while this section should remain as an easy and very accessible quick list of current plans. Elk Salmon 13:21, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

The old section was terrible, expansion plans should at least state where its expanding to, and considering that is part of a project the whole project should be announced. Moreover, lets not forget that anything more that a month is very unsecure. Right up until May we assumed that Sretensky will be opened with Trubnaya, then they announce November, now its 8 December. On the contrary I think we should condense the numbers section, as that is unneceessary. --Kuban Cossack 19:04, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

Spelling of some stations' names

PervomaYskaya, IzmaYlovskaya and DelovoY Tsentr (Y instead of I). Please correct the articles' names (I've already corrected the stations' names in some other articles). That's the way they appear on the diagram, and the way they should, according to the official rules of transliteration. I don't want to register myself, but if I can do it without registering, let me know...

Saluton 195.28.44.145 13:41, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

There was a LONG discussion on this topic! Please review the archives and the medcom that resulted. --Kuban Cossack 14:37, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the answer. Sorry, I don't understand what a 'medcom' is, but what I've offered also accords with Wikipedia:Romanization of Russian and what has been said about 'Ы and Й - Y'. I've found nothing else on the issue outside the 'Language' section in the archive.

Saluton