Talk:Mr. Brainwash

Tony Clifton

Obviously there is something suspect about Mr. Brainwash actually existing. The film does not consider his art very highly and raises arguements about the very nature of art (like warhol). Even referenceing Spinal Tap that he is taking art and turning it to 11. So whether Mr Brain Wash is an actor or is Banksy himself the page should be here. Andy Kaufman who Banksy is clearly inspired by had an imaginary character he portrayed as real, Tony Clifton and he has a real wikipedia page even though he doesnt actually exist. Both Kaufman and Banksy are taking the world for a ride and its genius. IMO Mr Brainwash not existing would make him more notable then actually existing - 192.147.235.30 (talk) 01:38, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

no sources

"french videographer" oh really, sources please, filmography, publicity of works

"His documentary" "he" is not credited as the director, Banksy is.

Guetta's documentary is a separate, unreleased film (described as "unwatchable"), named "Life Remote Control". This is a different film from Banksy's (and one of its subjects).

Checked the web and all sources are unreliable, everything sounds like a giant buzz media campaign, orchestrated to help Mr Banksy live with his guilt of making money with his good sentiments art.

The joke is probably very good, intoxicate corporate media if you want, but leave wikipedia alone.

This article should be suppressed for self promotion, or marketing, or just lack of sources, it violates the guidelines for artists entries… and if it's of any interest, please make it a sub category (character) of the aforementioned "documentary" directed by Banksy.

Seems clear this is an actor, or an alter ego of Robert Banks. Either way, not a real person. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.73.253.4 (talk) 05:06, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

I recently saw the Bansky documentary. It is more or less about the irony of MBW rising to fame and fortune without being talented. However, Banksy's (inadvertent) involvement in MBW's rise is a big part of the documentary. The upshot is that while MBW arguably lacks artistic credibility, and is definitely a publicity hound, he is also a real person, a (financially) successful pop artist, and the subject of a documentary by Banksy. So we can argue about what should be on his wikipedia page, but it definitely makes sense for him to have one. Miconian (talk) 17:45, 24 April 2010 (UTC)

The Intro - and the bit about most of the work isn't created by him

That intro really needs fixin up, pretty much all big artists, from Andy Warhol to Michelangelo, didn't create a lot of the work themselves, Andy Warhol and Michelangelo managed out the work to other artists to actually create much of the work, of course they had stronger art background and artistic skill, it still doesn't change the fact the artist in charge gets all the credit, and it really doesn't matter who did the actual work. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Zacwd (talk • contribs)

Biographical details to start!

Hi, totally agree with first talk comment, there are absolutely no "real" references or sources about this so called pop artist. I have checked the timesonline article where it says of MR. BW "Originally from a small town just outside Paris, he had moved to LA in the early Eighties". So what's the name of the town? And googling around I found this interview http://www.blackbookmag.com/article/an-interview-with-mr-brainwash/16321 wherein we learn: "I’m not like I don’t have money, I mean I work for what I did. I lost my mother when I was 11. I lost my father when I was 18." That's convenient then isn't it? And also from the same article: "I sat down in the venue with the enigmatic artist—who spoke in a thick French accent". Okay, okay, come on he's been in LA for over 25 years and still speaks in a thick French accent? Is this a put-on or what?Captain Screebo (talk) 14:56, 11 October 2010 (UTC) Why do we have no date of birth or anything? If I google his name on google.fr I get nothing or the same old claptrap that's doing the rounds of all the websites, whether in English or in French. There is some interesting info in the comments section, by Juan Rodriguez, in this article: http://www.neublack.com/features/featured-artist-mr-brainwash/ He's supposedly been in LA for 25 years "where he worked, variously, as an estate agent, a building contractor and a fashion retailer before starting to document the street-art scene," timesonline again. So, you Wikipedians in LA, come on, someone must have worked with, hung out with this Thierry Guetta? This is a bit like Scooby Doo to me, let's pull the mask off and... oh no it's the respectable but creepy art gallery owner, or something along those lines. Nothing wrong with an article about this "phenomenon", Borat's got one, but could we at least try to see through the smokescreen? Captain Screebo (talk) 14:56, 11 October 2010 (UTC)

What's this doing in the references?

Why has this bit "Mr. Brainwash is now considered as a hoax and people like Obey and Banksy, who introduced him to street art, regret ever creating MBW." just been tacked on, and what's it doing in the references section? Captain Screebo (talk) 19:31, 11 October 2010 (UTC)

"Fictional Character"

I removed the part addressing him as a fictional character. I have my suspicions about the film's reality as well, but there is not enough evidence to flat out pronounce the guy a fictional character. These proclamations need to be based on evidence, not suspicions. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.118.170.201 (talk) 06:39, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

that makes no sense. you have to have evidence a person is real before you can claim they are, not the opposite. i learned that from the birthers :) 77.0.211.27 (talk) 02:16, 29 December 2010 (UTC)

Since there is a widespread suspicion that the guy's a hoax, the lede should reflect this. I believe the current language is solid. --Orange Mike | Talk 22:16, 29 December 2010 (UTC)

Since there is widespread suspicion that the guy's a hoax, the lead could mention that *suspicion*. The reference for his actual existing is the movie itself, as well as interviews with Bansky and others, and the confirmable existence of his 2008 show, 'Life is Beautiful.' I'm not going to do it right now because it's clearly contentious, but could we please not lead this article with a fully unsubstantiated rumor, one which a quick google search leads me to disbelieve? Zombiejesus (talk) 17:27, 27 January 2011 (UTC)

Mr. Hogwash

Sorry, here we go again, could some more experienced Wikipedian come and sort this article out? Here is some biographical information gleaned from different sources which does not add up, this is hogwash and so is this character. Here's the rub: "the British art-prankster wrested control of the project and turned the cameras on Guetta, launching his eccentric 44-year-old French videographer"

Right, so he's 44 then?

"Originally from a small town just outside Paris, he had moved to LA in the early Eighties, where he worked, variously, as an estate agent, a building contractor and a fashion retailer" reference as above

So he would be about 16-18 when he arrived in LA, right?

"I’m not like I don’t have money, I mean I work for what I did. I lost my mother when I was 11. I lost my father when I was 18."

Okay, so his parents died BEFORE he came to the States, well his mum for sure, at least according to this tearjerking account.

"Thierry Guetta’ backstory is too eccentrically, even touchingly, plausible. He had lived in LA for many years with his family and he says that it was the deaths of his mother and father that inspired him to videotape his entire life"

Ah, a little problem, no, he lived in LA with his family FOR MANY YEARS and it was their deaths that launched him on his crazy, street-art documenting career?

"His biography even has holes: Guetta is an orphan (when his mother died he was sent to a foster home, he says) with a family of at least four who lives in Los Angeles, yet he has no discernible income other than owning a vintage clothing store."

So now he's an orphan and was sent to a foster family, okay? And what's the name of this "vintage clothing store"?

I don't care about the art/not-art debate or the is it/isn't it Banksy: this is Wikipedia and I find this hokum akin to having an article on The Grinch or The BoogeyMan presented as a "biography of a living person".

Come on LA, do some digging, who is Thierry Guetta, does he have a shop or is this all just horses**t? Captain Screebo (talk) 20:59, 11 October 2010 (UTC)

Everything you've said could be explained. His mother could have died when he was 11, his father when he was 18. When his mother died, his father couldn't take care of him so he was sent to a foster home in LA in the late 70s/early 80s. He missed his father's death when he was 18, and according to the film, this is what inspired him to obsessively compulsively record every element of his life. His accent is heavy, but I know people his age that still have accents like that and have lived here for 30 years. I don't consider any of this substantial evidence against the existence of Thierry, my "gut" tells me it's a prank, but we'll need to come up with better than that.

My guess would be that Thierry is a real person that was co-opted by Fairey and Banksy to tell this somewhat amazing story. If you want to find holes, the places to look would be trying to find out what shop he owned (it looked very familiar to me, but I'm no expert on vintage clothing stores here.) That shop has a real history. You could probably find out a lot about it on Google, but even more by a quick stop-in.

76.171.97.100 (talk) 03:16, 5 January 2011 (UTC)

I think that the Thierry Guetta displayed in the movie is real (at least) until his big show in LA. It is possible to find photographic evidences of his cameraman tag in various cities before 2007. http://www.flickr.com/search/?q=mbw+art&d=taken--20061231&ct=0&mt=all&adv=1 --64.235.208.10 (talk) 01:08, 18 January 2011 (UTC)

According to your search this picture http://www.flickr.com/photos/21264504@N04/3003412205/ tagged MBW was taken in 2000, featuring yours truly McCaine & Obama 2008 116.232.2.234 (talk) 15:14, 19 January 2011 (UTC)

Dating footage of the Kinko's scene

Not sure why my edit which irrefutably dated the Guetta-Shepard meeting footage to the year 2000 was tagged with conflict of interest and then removed, but I'll give it one more shot. To clear up a few things, the reference link is to what will remain an anonymous, one-post, Wordpress blog, out of which I want nothing more than to share the facts. Judging from the edits below, people want to know them.

The page doesn't qualify as original research, it's universally available map and film footage which is simply aggregated to one page for side by side comparison. It is FAR more reliable than another section reference - http://www.fastcompany.com/1616365/banksy-movie-prankumentary , which is pure speculation mixed with outright falsehoods. If we're going to allow trivial bits, like MBW being pushed in a wheelbarrow with a broken foot, to be construed as evidence of a prank, it seems ridiculous to remove cited, factual evidence against one prank theory. I feel that someone was just removing it because they disagreed with the implied conclusion. One more try, and then I'll leave it up to the hivemind. Jbtvt (talk) 23:04, 10 January 2011 (UTC)

Wordpress blogs aren't considered reliable sources! LARPing aint easy (talk) 00:50, 11 January 2011 (UTC)

"User talk:Jbtvt From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia [edit]Please stop adding linkspam Please don't add links to your blog to articles it's considered linkspamming. LARPing aint easy (talk) 00:48, 11 January 2011 (UTC)"

The blog is not mine, as I said it's a one post blog, and only the medium to convey relevant new information! The "reliable source" is film footage itself, Google maps, and Bing maps! Do tell, how is one supposed to get information of this nature out? Would it be preferable if I wrote on the Wiki entry, "OK guys, press play on your copy of the film, fast forward to 14:41, now load up Google maps street view, type in..." You appear to care more about your personal interpretation of "the rules" than actually sharing factual information, which is what this is supposed to be about.

I also don't appreciate your moving this active discussion to the bottom of the talk page, unless you will also being reorganizing the entire page, since the placement below is far from chronological. If someone who would not be considered a "spammer" would care to share the info it would be appreciated. Jbtvt (talk) 01:38, 11 January 2011 (UTC)

• The new threads are SUPPOSED to go to the bottom! Read this WP:TOPPOST. The fact you don't know this tells me you don't know too much about the policies here. LARPing aint easy (talk) 02:19, 11 January 2011 (UTC)
• Good God, how could I miss that!? Sandwiched in the middle of 10 pages of gibberish I couldn't care less about. The fact that you do know this tell me you don't know much else BESIDES the policies here. If the two types of people are viewers and doers, it's becoming clear to me who runs this show. So I'll leave you to it, and to argue over syntax of old information instead of breaking new ground.Jbtvt (talk) 23:38, 11 January 2011 (UTC)
  • Not caring about the policies and guidelines is directly related to the removal of your contribution. LARPing aint easy (talk) 01:51, 12 January 2011 (UTC)

External links

Yes, well, I have just removed the WP:EL to this article which is basically an interview with the artist, a puff piece with no references or verifiable facts or anything really, just a lot of smartypants answers and stuff like this "Well, whether Mr. Brainwash exists or does not exists is really besides the point. The point is that Mr. Brainwash has exhibitions and sells artworks."

I don't see how this adds anything to the article besides what we (don't) already know and to quote WP:EL "External links in biographies of living persons must be of high quality and are judged by a higher standard than for other articles."

Was this the right call and would anyone care to check out the other external links? Captain Screebo (talk) 17:19, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

Excellent Point. First, yes, this is "basically an interview with the artist", that is why the link is called "interview with the artist, like the other interview listing. As it is an interview it is of listable merit, period. Secondly, the quote you mention is of merit. Thirdly, interviews have no verifiable facts, it is an interviw with an artist -- not an interview with a fact checker. Lastly, your criticism of this excellent and revealing ("graffiti art is dumb") artist interview calls into question YOUR criicism of the artist and the artist's expressed content. It is his words, period; in his manner and vernacular. This manner and method is his art and language, which you have no right whatsoever to edit or dismiss or censor to the listed external links. In other words, once you do something of merit you can be the judge of your language. Therefore, I am reverting the unjust edit. Thank you... --Art4em (talk) 16:09, 28 April 2011 (UTC)

Sorry I think you're confusing me with someone else!

• You state "As it is an interview it is of listable merit, period." This does not seem to be an underlying guideline of Wikipedia, I quoted WP:EL (see above) but this is not all it says, it also says:

"No page should be linked from a Wikipedia article unless its inclusion is justifiable according to this guideline and common sense. The burden of providing this justification is on the person who wants to include an external link."'

"Links in the "External links" section should be kept to a minimum."

"Is the site content proper in the context of the article (useful, tasteful, informative, factual, etc.)?" (my emphasis)

"Any site that misleads the reader by use of factually inaccurate material or unverifiable research"(my emphasis)

"Every link provided must be justifiable in the opinion of the editors for an article."

• Your argument, "... period", does not appear to be justifiable or thought-out or anything else, it appears to be your opinion
• Then you go on to slate me for "your criticism of this excellent and revealing ("graffiti art is dumb") artist interview"; er, sorry, but this is not my quote, for your information, I am interested by Graffiti Art, I queued twice to get to see the free Banksy exhibition in Bristol (I live in France), so I don't know where you're at but it's not here

IMHO, you got something right "Secondly, the quote you mention is of merit." Yes, I agree, it is, but it should be used in the section theories to give more depth to the "is he or isn't he" debates.

And finally, drawing on my knowledge of Banksy and other pranksters, I am trying to ascertain if this is an art world version of the Sokal Affair, for the moment there is nothing verifiable about the artist, the film, the claims and so on. To quote:

"Did you take acting classes before “Exit Through The Gift Shop”?

Actually, Banksy knows Brad and Angelina, so I spoke with them about the process before shooting; they were very helpful."

Yes, this is totally factual, as we don't know who Banksy is, is Mr. Brainwash really T.G. or just a cynical etc. experiment by Banksy, Fairey and Guetta?, and also of course I'll just call up Brad and check that he hangs out with the guy he bought some paintings off

So, to resume, all of this seems well removed from WP:V

And I also removed the other artist interview which is basically from a site set up to sell, guess what, works of art by Banksy, Fairey and Mr. Brainwash so not really WP:NPOV and falls foul of WP:PROMOTION, sorry to be so pedantic, but I guess Wikipedia is all about consensus and respecting the guidelines to build an encyclopaedia of generally accepted and verifiable fact. Captain Screebo (talk) 13:22, 29 April 2011 (UTC)

Recent reference confirming some Guetta info

Although I think the entry on Mr. Brainwash is very nice, those working on the entry may find it useful to reference:

"Getting at the truth of 'Exit Through the Gift Shop': Thierry Guetta, the Oscar-nominated documentary's subject, says it's '100% real.' Public records support his biography, but questions persist about Banksy's role." February 22, 2011|By Jason Felch, Los Angeles Times

The Wikipedia entry appears to suggest that there is little or no evidence supporting the story about Guetta in the film. The journalist in the article above claims to have some supporting evidence for that story.69.29.77.30 (talk) 21:33, 4 September 2011 (UTC)

Answers the question: Is he real?

I found this thread on Reddit. Some of the participants have apparently known the guy. It's a long thread, and doesn't get good until you get far into it, but it seems to solve the mystery. Not a usable source, of course, but maybe for background info. Zyxwv99 (talk) 23:48, 29 July 2016 (UTC)

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