Talk:National Youth Leadership Training/Archive 1

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Archive 1

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This is a rough draft of NYLT. I would work on it further but I have run out of time for now.

I've done some additions/correction to this. You had some very incorrect and now outdated information. "Brownsea JLT" is a LOCAL name, not the term that was used Nationally. Before we had NYLT we had JLTC. Local councils used their own name on this. Also NJLTCIS is gone. The new NAYLE is NOT really the NYLT staff training that some think. Emb021 16:51, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

Leadership positions

The article devotes a lot of attention to troop leadership positions (SPL et al). This belongs at Boy Scouts (Boy Scouts of America), except where it relates specifically to NYLT. --Smack (talk) 17:24, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

I see what smack is saying, however, is it valid to point that out in this article, since part of the NYLT development is in being apart of staff? I noticed the outline of the course (i.e. the staff positions) was removed, however, maybe this can be re-incorporated either where it was to explain the importance i mentioned earlier, or to be used as a general idea for how the camp is structured? I can go ahead on that edit, but I'd like to get some opinion first.

Bad info here

This article had many factual errors. Go to the National Website www.bsa.org and then go to Boy Scouts/Adults/Training/Supplemental Training/Youth Leader Continuum for the correct info. —Preceding unsigned comment added by BSAtrainer (talk • contribs) 01:08, August 27, 2007 (UTC)

  • You need to be more specific here. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 01:14, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

Question

is it a requirement to have NYLT training to become an SPL or an ASPL?

No--Gadget850 ( Ed) 12:48, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
Yes or No it depends on your troop. My troop requires it but i am a staff member for the Greater St. Louis Area Council NYLT program and some of the participants are already SPL or ASPL.

Disputed

With no prior discussion, the disputed tag has been applied. I can only speculate this has something to do with the earlier reversions of material copied from the BSA web site and the short discussion. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 13:13, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

I checked with JzG— he was just relaying a non-specific WP:OTRS message. He did ask the sender to discuss this here. I suggest we let the tag sit for a few days. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 14:31, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

I would like to see a discussion on what is going on at Philmont. I've gotten a lot of complaints from youth coming back from the NAYLE program? Has anyone heard gotten familiar complaints. I'm disappointed in the BSA for again for falling to the knees of one influential person that really lacks a understanding of youth leader training. I have a scout that staffed NAYLE this summer and told me some of the things that were going on with the adults out there, and it makes me want to call the values hot line. We are really hurting our local council training programs for the hyprocracy of just a few people on national. We need to fight this people! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.150.209.13 (talk) 05:19, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

I understand where you are coming from, but this is not a forum (see WP:TALK). The talk page is used to discussed the article and how to improve it. "The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth." (See WP:V} We cannot include material here unless it has a reliable, published source. You may be frustrated, but WP is the wrong place to build activism— you need to direct your energies towards the Scouts-L or Scouter.com forums. If there are specific facts in the article that are wrong or missing, we can work on that. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 11:19, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

I am finding this part of wikipedia to be very confusing. The content that was listed for NAYLE was accurate yet was removed. I assume this is because the topic listing is NYLT and so the information will ONLY be NYLT, with other coursses from the BSA National Youth Training Continuum (which consist of TLT and NAYLE) to be refernced under their own subheadings? And do all the various courses designed by individual councils and camps also get their own listings? I do hope the corrections are made soon to NYLT and stay in place so that accurate informaton is put out on wikipedia. The material on the BSA website is still "the" most reliable source for all of these courses. —Preceding unsigned comment added by BSAtrainer (talk • contribs) 16:59, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

The disputed tag was up for three months and no one came forward with any details as to the issues. The NAYLE and YSDC material was removed, YSDC now has its own article and NAYLE and TLT are redlinked pending article creation; there is now an overview shoing how these programs are linked. If there are any other concerns, please be specific. --— Gadget850 (Ed) talk - 15:22, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

JLT?

As a Scout, I never heard of National Youth Leadership Training. I went through something that we called Junior Leader Training. --Smack (talk) 01:23, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

I did TLD (Troop Leader Development). TLD (1970s) = JLT (1980s) = NYLT (2000s) --Gadget850 ( Ed) 00:57, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

NYLT is a new course released by national to replace JLT. TLD has been replaced with TLT(Troop Leadership Training) --BadenPowell 04:15, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
correction on the terms. TLD, TLT, JLTC, and NYLT were/are all week-long, council run training. TLD (Troop Leader Development) was in the 70s. Very late 70/early 80s it became TLT (Troop Leadership Training), later renamed JLTC (Junior Leader Training Conference) in the mid-80s or so. NYLT replaced JLTC a couple of years ago. Its important to keep this straight, as National ALSO has/had a series of junior leader training delivered by the troop, and for a brief time had a weekend training course given by district and multitroops that was between the troop delivered training and the weeklong council delivered training (this in the 70s & 80s). Emb021 2 February 2007
There may have been some overlap in terms on the older programs. I have a TLD certificate from ca. 1976 signed by my Scoutmaster. I'm sure that was a weekend program at the troop level. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 16:30, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
There is also an ambuguous use of the terms within troops. My troop has a weekend-long JLT training course once a year for the current leaders and anyone else nominated by the PLC. In addition, we also have a TLD course twice a year to train the current leaders and define their jobs (ex. give the QM his responsibilities and explain them all, etc.). As far as I can tell, NYLT is the national level of training (usually done over the course of a week with the council) in which they recieve the NYLT pocket patch. Several troops in my council also have the "Troop JLT" in which they recieve the "Trained" cuff patch. Tomi Undergallows (talk) 15:47, 10 January 2008 (UTC)
Which is why I recently added the "Youth leadership training continuum" section as an overview of the whole program. Troop level training is now called Troop Leader Training (TLT). --— Gadget850 (Ed) talk - 16:02, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

Program controversy

This new section is referenced by a forum— this does not meet the verifiability policy. See Wikipedia:Reliable sources. --—— Gadget850 (Ed) talk - 19:22, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

I'll see if I can find better sources. While people talk, they are reluctant to put it in writing in verifiable format. If I can't find anything, I'll remove the relevant sections. Give me a couple of weeks. btphelps (talk) 19:55, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

Improvements

  • Section titles should not include NYLT  Done
  • BSA has no secrets. Safeguarded material yes.
  • A number of words in upper case that should be lower case- see the capitalization section of the Language of Scouting  Done
  • Define abbreviations (SPL, JASM) on the first use  Done
  • No mention of TLD (Troop Leader Development) from the 70s, Done nor of White Stag.  Done btphelps (talk) 05:25, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
  • No sources  Done
  • External links: convert to references where possible, convert to cite format  Done
  • That JLT link is not a BSA site as implied, it's also very out of date- recommend delete  Done
  • The staff section needs to be simplified and bullets removed.  Done
  • There is no discussion of what Scouts actually learn and do at NYLT.  Done

--Gadget850 ( Ed) 13:15, 11 September 2006 (UTC)  Done --— Gadget850 (Ed) talk - 01:43, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

  • No discussion about debate on why NAYLE might not be working and how our NYLT courses might be hurting badly for staff members. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 65.120.179.226 (talk) 05:04:40, August 19, 2007 (UTC) Note: The last bullet point has been editeed for less, if not any, bais. Admiral MH (talk) 00:52, 19 March 2008 (UTC)
Any content related to this needs reliable sources. --— Gadget850 (Ed) talk - 01:43, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

2009 changes

Waiting for reliable sources before adding:

  • No local names
  • Wood Badge will be required for adult staff
  • Scoutmaster and assistant can earn Wood Badge beads. (For more info, see NYLT Changes in 2009. btphelps (talk) 05:35, 12 August 2008 (UTC))
  • Scoutmaster may serve only two years

--—— Gadget850 (Ed) talk - 14:05, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

  • Those are all true, I was just on staff at Utah's Silver Moccasin, another local name is Timberline. A lot of NYLT's events and lessons are kept more of a secret to make the camp more of a genuine experience for the participants, so unless you have a syllabus you would have to have been there to have any clue what happens there.[1] [2] —Preceding unsigned comment added by The Ninja Assasin (talk • contribs)
  • While the NYLT program content may not be widely available to the general public, it is not "secret." A copy of the syllabus is available to anyone who joins the public Yahoo Junior Leader Training group here:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/JLT_training/files/National%20BSA%20Curriculum/

It can also be downloaded here:

http://www.bacarrowhead.org/training.htm

btphelps (talk) 22:13, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

No- it is not secret; anyone could order it online. This is yet another district site posting publications in violation of the BSA's own copyright policies. The BSA is starting to provide some manuals though their website, but districts and councils are not allowed to do so. --—— Gadget850 (Ed) talk - 22:20, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

Sogus

Redirect Sogus, local implementation of NYLT. --—— Gadget850 (Ed) talk - 14:24, 30 September 2008 (UTC)

Agree, the SORGUS program by itself lacks notability and should be merged. Is it worthwhile to create a section here devoted to various Council's names for their historical JLT programs? Or will this just get out of hand? -- btphelps (talk) (contribs) 01:12, 1 October 2008 (UTC)
We had a sentence on local names that grew to a section before we whacked it. 308 councils... --—— Gadget850 (Ed) talk - 13:16, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

 Done --—— Gadget850 (Ed) talk - 14:53, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

Feedback

  • This section: "Youth leadership training continuum", says three but you list four  Done
  • find a ref for the cite needed tags  Done
  • I'm not sure how the long list of attendees will go over but I'm not sure what to do either. — Rlevse • Talk • 01:37, 6 November 2009 (UTC)
Only a few individuals are notable, but the breadth of the attendees and the positions they held is notable. I think that's what motivated me to include it in the first place. -- btphelps (talk) (contribs) 07:24, 6 November 2009 (UTC)
Not sure what to do with these long page numbers (e.g., "Staff Guide-13") as references, all to the NYLT Staff Guide. I'd usually use {{rp}} to avoid duplicate footnotes, but in this instance the long page numbers interfere with reading the article. I think I will make separate footnotes for each citation that refers to the NYLT staff guide. Thoughts? -- btphelps (talk) (contribs) 21:12, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

Suggested merge

The details presented in the NYLT program article are excellent, but I don't think merit an entirely separate article. (The title should also be spelled out, but that's a separate issue.) I just removed a good deal of program history from the this article into a new overview article Leadership training (Boy Scouts of America). The NYLT article already has some information on the program content. With the move of the historical info, this article is much shorter. The content about the program details found in NYLT program could easily be merged into this article. Neither this nor the NYLT program article are long enough to justify separate article about the the same subject. — btphelps (talk) (contribs) 23:21, 1 November 2011 (UTC)

The author of NYLT program agreed with the merger proposal in a comment on my talk page. I am completing the merger. — btphelps (talk) (contribs) 00:47, 10 November 2011 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Quality of merged article

The merged article NYLT program had a number of issues with suitable references. Just because two organizations contain the same concept does not mean that either one utilizes the other organizations practices or principles. The secondary source needs to explicitly reference the other organization. Because many of the references provided did not do that, I have removed most of the unsupported content during the merge. Feel free to add the content back when you provide suitable references.— btphelps (talk) (contribs) 05:52, 10 November 2011 (UTC)

NYLT Qualifications

In the NYLT requirements for youth section, all three ref links are dead, and a quick search is revealing inconsistent requirements depending on which council you're looking at. At Scouting.org it doesn't mention the requirements. On the Greater St Louis page it says that the minimum age is 12; on Orange County Council it has minimum age of 14 for Varsity even though Boy Scouting is 13; Greater Cleveland Council has 13 and complete the 7th grade as the minimum age. This makes me think that there is no national requirements for the course and that each council sets it themselves. Anybody else have any luck finding national requirements? ZybthRanger (talk) (contribs) 12:44, 27 September 2012 (UTC)

I suspect you are right— let me poke around later. And the minimum joining age for Varsity is 14, so I don't understand why OCC even has that requirement. ---— Gadget850 (Ed) talk 13:58, 27 September 2012 (UTC)
I'm going to give it another go during my lunch break. The only things I saw earlier that seemed to indicate a national standard were from 2008 or 2009 at the latest. I incorrectly thought that Varsity was 13 and 8th grade like Venturing which is why I included it. Some of the age requirements are quite strange. ZybthRanger (talk) (contribs) 15:35, 27 September 2012 (UTC)
I couldn't find anything else. Differing minimums of 12, 13, and 14; differing maximums of 18 or 21 for Venturers; no consistent rank/course requirements; and of course a few more specifications that Varsity Scouts and Venturers must be at least 13 to enroll. ZybthRanger (talk) (contribs) 17:01, 27 September 2012 (UTC)

Major 2011 Changes

The format of the course has changed majorly for new courses held in 2011 and beyond. Now that the new syllabus has been released, I placed the expert template on the article because it does need to be reviewed/fixed by someone. I may get around to it at some point, but I'm not expecting to be able to. Icefall5 (talk) 00:19, 22 February 2011 (UTC)

I located a copy of the 2011 NYLT Syllabus on Scribd.com and copied it here for easy reference. The book itself lists the following changes:
2011 Revisions to This Syllabus
The following changes have been made to the National Youth Leadership Training syllabus for the 2010 edition.
Staff Guide
  • Language was changed throughout to reflect the involvement of male and female Venturers as well as Boy Scouts.
Staff Development Guide
  • Language was changed throughout to reflect the involvement of male and female Venturers as well as Boy Scouts.
Syllabus
  • Language was changed throughout to reflect the involvement of male and female Venturers as well as Boy Scouts.
Based on this input, I'm going to add similar language to the article and remove the "expert needed" tag. — btphelps (talk) (contribs) 18:40, 1 November 2011 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.
This requires update as the Syllabus has changed in 2013 specifically returning the course verbiage to Scout Patrol Methods. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Baloo6130 (talk • contribs) 22:57, 22 December 2013 (UTC)

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Unintentional plagiarism

In cleaning up citations, grammar, and syntax errors I could not help but notice how the writing style of acronym soup, capitalization errors, and general style strongly resembled the style commonly found in government documents. The same style found in older scouting manuals, likely do to many volunteers being government employees. I found a 2004 copy of the "National Youth Leadership Training Staff Guide”, “National Youth Leadership Training Staff Development Guide”, and “National Youth Leadership Training Syllabus" all combined into one file and it seem like a very large portion of the text in this article was directly copy and pasted from other editions of those manuals. Probably unintentional plagiarism from several manuals from several different years. A Copyvio Detector report found numerous exact matches. Probably because those web pages also copy and pasted from the same sources. The article has lots of sources and it would be a shame to scrap it and start over, so I would rather take the time to rewrite all of it, but wanted to leave an explanation of why I am about to very likely end up reducing large portions of text as I rewrite the text to avoid the plagiarism problem, and fix other numerous issues while I am at it. Abel (talk) 04:35, 9 March 2017 (UTC)

The article is greatly reduced in size, but the huge amount of duplication from the article merge and the unintentional plagiarism are now gone. Abel (talk) 21:56, 9 March 2017 (UTC)
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