Talk:Nationality of Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart

This article was nominated for deletion on 13 November 2023. The result of the discussion was keep.

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Maps[edit]

The "Maps" section could be confusing for people with eyesight problems. Dunutubble (talk) 00:58, 16 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

German[edit]

Since Mozart was German speaking why isn’t he just considered German? I mean if Germany didn’t exist back then why are both Bach and Beethoven considered German but Mozart isn’t? all three men were German speakers, they just originated from different regions within the Holy Roman Empire. 143.176.246.244 (talk) 17:04, 18 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Please look at the history and the maps of the Holy Roman Empire and tell us that all those born there ought to be categorized as German. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 01:53, 19 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

This was not the argument. The argument was that Mozart was a native speaker of German and born within the Holy Roman Empire. 2A02:810D:4140:1CFC:0:0:0:29B0 (talk) 10:36, 17 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

There were, and are, many native German speakers in the former Empire who could never be categorised as German nationals. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 11:50, 17 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Bayerischer Reichskreis[edit]

It seems important to note that Salzburg was part of a political entity within the Holy Roman Empire called 'Bayerischer Reichskreis'. The entity comprised part of modern-day Bavaria. It may come closest to determining what would nowadays be Mozart's citizenship.

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bayerischer_Reichskreis 2A02:810D:4140:1CFC:0:0:0:29B0 (talk) 17:52, 9 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Justification for article[edit]

As far as I can tell, this article seems to be entirely WP:OR and/or WP:SYNTH to explain or answer the question of nationality as applied to Mozart. It is not actually about the subject of the nationality of Mozart as it actually exists. An example of this would be if notable figure A says mozart is X, notable figure B says Mozart is Y, and they get into a poopstorm over it that is covered by notable source C. There are notable mentions of the politicization of Mozart's nationality -- for example, in a 2013 WP discussion User:DoctorJoeE links to a BBC story that quotes the Austrian embassy on this subject. This story is cited in the article currently, yet, bizarrely, it is done so for historical facts and not for modern politics. (Neither the ambassador nor the embassy spokesperson are specialist historians.)

This article is not justifiable in its current state. It either needs to be entirely about Mozart's nationality as a subject under significant discussion -- not simply a amalgamation of isolated blurbs from historians. Or else its scope should be expanded into a larger discussion of either the historiography for declaring the nationality of pre-Modern figures, or else the modern politics behind claiming nationalities for historical figures. Failing such change (or other suggestions you may have), I'd recommend deletion in a month or so. SamuelRiv (talk) 20:38, 16 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

From the lead: Editors of modern encyclopedias and other reference sources differ in how they assign a nationality to Mozart (if any) in light of conflicting criteria. is the primary justification for this article. As there is no nationality of Mozart as it actually exists, Wikipedia presents the state of discussions. The article's secondary justification is to keep this marginal subject out of the main article. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 01:56, 17 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Who's discussing it? Not editors of modern encyclopedias -- all the encyclopedias in the article seem to decide each edition on one thing or another. The only place in this entire article that we mention sources which actually ponder over the issue of Mozart's nationality is the final paragraph, which cites all of two scholars. From this article it seems to me that, for this eminently important historical figure who has been extensively written about from every perspective, the only writers who are devoting such extensive coverage to debate his nationality are us. SamuelRiv (talk) 02:37, 17 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]