Talk:Netsuke

See Also

The page for Inro is linked, but the page for Ojime http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ojime is not linked. Admittedly, it's a stub, but as the third part of the ensemble, it should be linked to this article. Especially since Ojime were (and are) often carved to match a Netsuke. 75.176.108.7 (talk) 10:48, 7 January 2009 (UTC)

Use / "Significance" section?

This article is quite an interesting read, yet a bit strange as an encyclopaedia article. It goes into arguably excessive detail in the material, all of which could have been covered on their respective page, yet skimps on the significance of Netsuke itself (citing that it's "beyond the scope of the article"). Hopefully the author or someone knowledgeable can improve on it. Uly 05:07, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

The description of how netsuke were used is slightly involved. It would've been helpful if someone provided an illustration: person from the side, with all the components of the setup present and labeled.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 66.167.236.53 (talk • contribs) 08:37, 2 December 2005.

Good point, I'll do that. Rama 08:58, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

We have a quick'n'dirty little drawing now. Rama 17:34, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

I see the drawing, but I'm still confused. Does the cord slip through the netsuke and the knot is beside/behind the netsuke? Or elsewhere? Or did the knotted part of the cord coordinate with the purse/pouch? In the drawing, I see the knot appears to be below the inro. Was that the way it always was, regardless of inro/pouch/whatever? In other words, imagine I have, say, a pouch with a knotted cord drawstring at the top. Do I unknot it, slip the netsuke on, tie it again, and there you are? Joan—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.115.82.205 (talk • contribs) 22:55, 9 July 2006.

As far as I know, the cord for a pouch would be tied thru the netsuke off center on a drawstring pouch, so that the knots didn't interfere. On an inro, there are channels or tubes down the sides of each section- the cord running thru them and knotting underneath is what holds the inro together, and the ojime is used directly above it to snug it tight, with the netsuke at the point of the loop of the cord, keeping it attached to the belt. 75.176.108.7 (talk) 10:53, 7 January 2009 (UTC)

Price Range

Wouldn't the price range for contemporary netsuke be more realistic if it were reduced by an order of magnitude, ie. to $1000-$10000? I know modern pieces occasionally sell outside that range, but isn't that an exception, not the rule?—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Cshapiro (talk • contribs) 12:11, 11 November 2005.

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As a fledgling Netsuke carver myself who has done a ton of research, the answer is no. The price range stated is correct for COLLECTIBLE Netsuke. There are plenty of cheap works available, but collectors who are at all serious are not interested in them. 75.176.108.7 (talk) 10:42, 7 January 2009 (UTC)

Trivial information such as prices of sellable items are not static or needed information. The point of the article is to describe the item in question. Not sell it. -83.145.193.41 (talk) 06:50, 24 June 2009 (UTC)

Unusual materials used in netuske

This section needs cleanup - much of the information here is not relevant to the subject of Netsuke, but might be relevant to other Wikipedia articles. Therefore I'm putting an archive copy of this material here prior to cleanup.

Mammoth Tusk Ivory: Someone needs to update this page with this material as it is the most viable material outside of Modern Ivory.

Hornbill ivory: Hornbills are curious-looking birds that are found throughout the Orient as well as in Africa and Australia. There are 11 species of hornbill in Malaysia alone. As the name suggests, the hornbill has a large casque on the upper mandible. The size and shape of the bill and casque vary among species.

Of the many varieties of hornbill, only the helmeted hornbill (Buceros vigil or Rhinoplax vigil) furnishes an ivory-like substance. This is a dense, carvable substance found in the solid casque growing above the upper mandible (the bird’s forehead). Structurally, it is not ivory, horn, or bone, yet it has been called ivory for many centuries. It is softer than real ivory and is a creamy yellow in color, becoming red at the top and sides. This particular species is native to only Malaysia, Sumatra, and Borneo, and lives in the highest trees. It is seldom seen from the ground despite its 5-foot length from beak to tail.

By the beginning of the 20th century, the bird was becoming extinct, having been slaughtered mercilessly for the sake of the carvable casque. By the middle of the 20th century, it had lost its international character in world trade, and this decline in interest has helped the bird to recover, although it is still endangered. ... All hornbill items are rare.

Coral: Coral is the hard skeletons of various marine organisms. It is chiefly carbonate of lime. ... Beyond their general utility and value as sources of lime, few of the corals present any special feature of industrial importance, excepting the red or precious coral (Corallium rubrum). Precious coral is the species of coral valued for jewelry. It has a hard core that can be highly polished. Polishing brings out red, rose, or pink colors. ... Precious coral grows in small bushlike formations in the Mediterranean Sea and the Sea of Japan.

Umimatsu: A species of black coral with dense texture, concentric growth rings, and amber [and redish] colored inclusions in the black material. According to Michael Birch “The literal translation of umimatsu is ‘sea pine,’ and it is also popularly described as ‘black coral.’ True coral, however, is a hard calcareous substance secreted by marine polyps for habitation. Umimatsu, on the other hand is a colony of keratinous antipatharian marine organisms. Keratin is a nitrogenous substance which forms the basis of horns, nails, and claws. Rhinocerous horn, for example, is also keratinous.”

There is a black coral, popularly used for jewelry in Hawaii, which tends to be black with some white in it —no color, however. One finds more on black coral, than on umimatsu, and so one can assume there is some similarity. According to SusanScott.net, “Black coral grows in all oceans. Most of the 150 known species live in tropical waters below about 150 feet. The few that thrive in shallower water, 60 feet or less, grow in caves under ledges where light is dim. . . .Black corals thrive in such darkness because they don’t have symbiotic plants in their tissues, like reef corals do.

“Another difference between these two coral types is that black coral does not form reefs or heads. A colony of black coral looks like a tree growing up from the ocean floor. The largest of such trees in Hawaii reach about 6 feet tall. . . . The trunks and branches of black coral . . . are as hard as ivory and pearl.”

According to Bushell (13/ 2:6), “The literal translation . . . is seapine. . . . Whether literal or figurative the translation is a misnomer, as the material is, in actuality, a coral formed by skeletons of living organisms. . . . In color, umimatsu, black coral, is black or blackish brown, sometimes showing streaks of light brown or dirty yellow.” Bushell goes on: “As material, umimatsu is more acceptable to collectors than carvers. Leading carvers naturally avoided the material. It was prone to crack, crumble or chip. Carvers find that it is risky for carving details and subtle effects. Perfect pieces of black coral were difficult to obtain.”

Umoregi: There are several definitions, some contradictory: According to Bushell “Umoregi is a partially fossilized wood having the general appearance of ebony, but showing no grain.” Alain Ducros ( 9/ 3:40 ) “First let us deal with umoregi, often called fossilized wood. Umoregi is not properly a wood, but a jet, a variety of lignite that is often confused with ebony. It is a shiny material and takes an excellent polish but it has a tendency to split.”

“Jet,” says Britannica, is “a substance which seems to be a peculiar kind of lignite or anthracite; often cut and polished for ornaments,”

On the internet: “Umoregi-zaiku is petrified wood formed when cedar and pine trees from the Tertiary Age (5 million years ago) were buried underground and then carbonized. The layers of earth where umoregi-zaiku can be found extend under the Aobayama and Yagiyama sections of Sendai, [Japan].” Then this article goes on to say of pieces made, that they are “generally dark brown with a beautiful wood grain and the soft luster of lacquer.”

Drexler: "I thought once that there was no such thing as umoregi, until I found a netsuke that is little more than a chunk of umoregi. But how to distinguish it from ebony when carved is another problem."

Walrus tusk: The walrus has two large tusks (elongated canine teeth) projecting downward from the upper jaw. These tusks, often reaching two feet in length, have been extensively carved as ivory for centuries in many countries and especially in Japan. Walrus tusk carvings are usually easy to identify, because much of the interior of the tooth is filled with a mottled, almost translucent substance that is harder and more resistant to carving than the rest of the tooth. Manju, especially ryusa manju, invariably show this translucent material at opposite edges of the netsuke.

Whale's tooth: The sperm whale has teeth running the whole length of its enormous lower jaw. Those in the middle tend to be the largest often obtaining a length of more than six to eight inches. These larger ones are often used by carvers of scrimshaw. Drexler: "I have a smaller whales tooth that is just about the size that each of several of my netsuke might have been carved from."

Whale bone: All bones are hollow, the cavity being filled with a spongy material. Cuts across some bone show a pattern of minute holes looking like dark dots. Lengthwise, such bone displays many narrow channels which appear to be dark lines of varying lengths. Polished, bone is more opaque and less shiny than ivory.

Teeth: A variety of teeth are used for netsuke: boar's, bear's, even tiger's.

Tagua nut: Nut from the ivory palm, referred to as vegetable ivory. Other names are: Corozo Nut: (British) (sometimes Spelled Corrozo); Binroji Nut:(Japanese); Coquilla Nut:(Brazil); Steinnuss:(German). From Central or South America. Part of the nut’s shell sometimes remains on netsuke carvings. Though often mistaken for or deceptively sold as elephant ivory, items made from the two-to-three-inch nut have none of the striations common to animal ivory, and sometimes the ivory-like nut flesh has a light yellow cast under a rough coconut-shell-like external covering. Nearly round to a slightly oval shape, many nuts are found in a large nut cluster, sort of like seeds in a hugely outsized pomegranate. Nut is very hard when dry, but easily worked into artistic items when wet.

Bamboo: “Bamboo (Iyo bamboo) is used for netsuke. Bamboo netsuke are either a piece of the stem or the root with carving on it.” According to Bernard Rosett (14/2 :40-44): “Carvings in the round are usually made from the underground stem of the plant, that small almost solid zone that connects to the creeping rhizome below the ground. Bamboo netsuke are not commonly encountered. Occasionally, one comes across a netsuke fashioned from bamboo root and can revel in the wonderful texture and patina of the material.”

Agate: A mineral, streaked with many colors, can be given a high polish. Most agate comes from quarries in Brazil and Uruguay.

-- 201.51.211.130 05:41, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

WP:Japan Assessment

The article was assessed Start-class due to two concerns: a lack of in-line citations, and a banner at the top that expresses concern over the format of the article, as the list format predominates, as opposed to the more favored prose format. Boneyard90 (talk) 16:26, 24 September 2013 (UTC)

Italics?

I noticed that at 09:41, on September 29, 2016,‎ Johnbod edited the article to add a detail that has been maintained over the last few months. That said, I have my doubts as to the value of these additions.

"In English the word may be italicized or not, with American English tending to favour the former and British English the later.[1][2]"

The two references seem to be two museums, one American, one British... that either do or don't italicize the word 'netsuke'...

This honestly seems like an entirely superfluous and confusing addition to the article. The decision to italicize a foreign word is, of course, important to wikipedia... but the discussion of this doesn't seem relevant to the object's wikipedia page?

tl;dr - is this relevant?

ColbyWolf (talk) 04:16, 17 February 2017 (UTC)

Of course it is. Johnbod (talk) 13:44, 17 February 2017 (UTC)

With all due respect, why is that? There are a great many wikipedia articles about objects that are foreign words. I imagine that very few of them discuss, effectively, the manual of style in different countries.

Actually, on that note, if you have a look at https://www.gsbe.co.uk/grammar-italics.html it says that Foreign words SHOULD be italicized, thus suggesting that the linked museum webpage used as a reference was doing it incorrectly. Actually, in my research, both countries seem to agree on when italics should be used in regards to foreign words.ColbyWolf (talk) 04:45, 24 February 2017 (UTC)

Sure, the museums are doing it all wrong... Johnbod (talk) 05:33, 24 February 2017 (UTC)

Well, yes. A museum's job is the storage of history and culture, not grammar. To which point: It is important that the state of italics in the article is correct, no one disputes that. However, this article is about a type of Japanese artifact... not grammar standards around the world. ColbyWolf (talk) 17:55, 27 February 2017 (UTC)

External links modified (February 2018)

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• Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20090213213834/http://www.boltonmuseums.org.uk/collections/object-search?term=netsuke&submitted=1&sort_by=Title&s_tags=&submit=Search+the+collections%2F to http://www.boltonmuseums.org.uk/collections/object-search?term=netsuke&submitted=1&sort_by=Title&s_tags=&submit=Search+the+collections%2F

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Little collectible creatures

Let's see, they either go inside boxes or help secure boxes that hang from your belt... Carved into little monster figurines... is it safe to say this is where Pokémon came from? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 73.94.57.191 (talk) 07:52, 20 March 2022 (UTC)

Netsuke at the Toledo Museum of Art

The Toledo Museum of Art in Ohio has the following collection of netsuke:

• http://emuseum.toledomuseum.org/collections/61254/netsuke/objects

Thanks for visiting the webpage. -- Apisite (talk) 05:16, 14 February 2023 (UTC)